Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Deleted3507349User]

In response to post #24737464. #24737549, #24737774, #24738099 are all replies on the same post.

digitaltrucker wrote:

Brasscatcher wrote: We cannot control the obstacles life places before us, only how we react to them. You debate well, sir. It was a pleasure meeting you here. Cheers!

digitaltrucker wrote: I do my darnedest to be fair and open-mined to all sides (even when I'm firmly on just one of them). The past few days have been difficult to maintain that, and I was less than successful on more than one occasion. To anyone I may have offended, I apologize; it was not my intention.

WightMage wrote: You're cool, digital. Even though we are on different sides of the argument, I think I speak for most of us when I say I appreciate your civility. :)

Though I must confess, I don't think disabling the donation function at this time would do anything except hinder the progress the Nexus has made over the weekend. Prior to this event, people didn't give a second thought toward giving mod authors anything.

Now? Now people are realizing just how lucky they are to even have mods, and with any luck, a paid mod scheme won't be necessary in the future if donations remain a thing.

I don't know that we are on different sides. I suspect my overall view is more akin to Dark0ne's. I actually do support the idea of paid mods, but it must be done correctly to ensure fairness and with an eye towards the future. My biggest problem with the Steam model was the exclusivity.

As I stated somewhere else that's now buried under mounds of comments; if we're going to allow actual paid mods, throw open the doors without restrictions (apart from copyrights and so forth). If not that, then keep mods free and with no DRM. Anywhere in between is bad news for all concerned.

Cheers to all!

[Korodic]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24736589. #24736754, #24737024, #24737159, #24737319, #24737354, #24737399 are all replies on the same post.

Vesuvius1745 wrote:

Brasscatcher wrote: Agreed. I posted somewhere back in one of the other topics that I disagree with forcing mods behind a paywall. User funding for this hobby should always be voluntary. BUT. Bethesda (under Zenimax pressure, I'm sure) has released games in terrible condition for a AAA title. If anyone should be profit-sharing with crews like SKSE, SkyUI, Unofficial Patches, it should be Bethesda. Sure is nice having a devoted and skilled-enough fanbase to make your game run for you.

I decided with Skyrim to not preorder the next Bethesda game for this very reason. There's no point, if the friggin thing isn't going to work out of the box.

WightMage wrote: You mean aside from the fact that, in a year or two, they'll be selling the "Legendary Gold Assault Armageddon Omega Supreme Edition" with over $200 worth of DLC clothing, weapon, and texture packs in a bundle for 80% off?

Brasscatcher wrote: Oh Wight. You so crazy!

...Except it could happen. :D

protttt wrote: Totally agreed. In fact the reason why people are still playing Skyrim today is because of the mods, and the mods alone. Trust me I tried playing Skyrim without mods and I couldn't stand 15 minutes! It might be the best game in 2011 but just a no-more-than-s#*! in 2015 comparing to other RPG games in NO MODs type (Dragon Age Inquisitions is a good example).

phantompally76 wrote: @Vesuvius1745, have you forgotten Skyrim was Game of the Year on 3 platforms without a single mod?

Don't exaggerate. Skyrim plays just fine without mods, and still has a huge following on consoles.

Mods are great. But they're not mandatory.

haydon111 wrote: +1
You defo need mods to have Skyrim playable even if you want to play vanilla.

Although who would want to play the lazy mess that is vanilla (even if it worked) which was basically a lazy console port at best if it wasn't for mods?

I and many others would never buy a beth game if it wasn't for great mod support.They need modders and mod users alot more then we need them imo.

phantompally76

You so silly,it got a following on consoles because console players don't know any better and I'm no expert but they got a stable version of the vanilla game.
For any master race gamer mods are mandatory for a Beth game.

>>Be playing Skyrim for first time.
>>Be 2 hours in,
>>"Wow these bandits are easy. I'm just repeatedly pressing the left mouse button and they're dying. Not even bothering to use their shields, circle strafe, or run away."
>>Decide to hell with it, game still fun so far...
>>Invade bandit camp. Murder everything.
>>Loot camp, about to leave, fall off stairs somehow.
>>Character stuck in mysterious non existent hole. Attempt jump out. Doesn't work.
>>Spend half an hour trying to get out of hole despite there being a clear path and being held down by invisible walls.
>>Hour later, quit.
>>Install mods.

[lFostelR]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

where as 0% is more than fair?

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

[Korodic]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24732584. #24734194, #24736024, #24736399, #24736849, #24737484, #24737584, #24737704, #24738624 are all replies on the same post.

WightMage wrote:

Brasscatcher wrote: High five, Wight. It was a pleasure to make your acquaintance. I include popcorn and phantom in this list too. I'll be chucking out a few friend requests today.

Asside from all the namecalling asshats, you people debate WELL. Even those of you making a case for the pay2mod marketplace. Salute.

I guess I have to stick around and be social now...it's kind of hard to go back into the cave after all this! Besides, with my confidence restored, I have mods to get back to work on!

ceilidhachaos wrote: Here, here! :)

jfisha wrote: I'll have to wait until next payday. I dropped a little too much in donations over the past few days. Wife's not happy

WightMage wrote: @Brass Damn right you should, lemme know if you ever need a voice actor or a script writer for a quest. ;)

And @jfisha, LOL, tell her you can write them off on your taxes or something. :P

Brasscatcher wrote: @Wight I just may do that, sir. I'm terrified of papyrus right now. I haven't programmed anything more complicated than a simple website before! But I see all these gorgeous house mods, with hidden stuff, and NPCs, and you open a door in the basement and get sucked off on a 12+ hour questline and...damn, how could you not want to try doing that?! It's like having a chance to make your own version of the Goonies!

Maybe in the aftermath of this, we'll see some other crews form from people debating and sharing ideas in these threads. What can I say, I'm an optimist. If I can get past the creation kit and the various other tools the game offers, I'll definitely give you a holler! :)

jfisha wrote: Brasscatcher

I demand a pirate ship in a hidden cave mod, pronto!

WightMage wrote: @Brass

Ehehe...er, I mean script writing as in, "writes scripts, for movies and... stuff." I actually still have to learn Papyrus myself... ^^;

...But hey! Pirate ship in a totally unknown cave! Great idea!

Maybe you can combine it with this mod: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/34475/?

Brasscatcher wrote: @jfisha @wight

Ok. I have absolutely nothing prepared, but I remember the pirate ship DLC from oblivion. I also love the Goonies, as I mentioned. Skyrim's already got a ship in a cave or several, but it's not very characterful.

I'll start noodling with ideas! :D

Also, I know what you meant, Wight. Hell, Someone who can voice and write in script format? YES PLEASE. I'ma visual guy, teaching myself how to model and such. The coding is going tohappen because...well, lets face it, that's a rare skillset in any community. I can't sit idle hoping I'll meet someone with freetime AND knows the ins and outs of coding Bethsoft mods.

True, true... though I suppose we could always try to convince Chesko to come back and help us.

He can be like our Old Ben Kenobi.

[WaltC]

Good call by Valve and Bethesda--it takes a "big man" to admit when he's wrong (pun intended.) But, good call, Gabe...;)

 

I believe Valve when they say they didn't think this through. They couldn't have given this much thought at all and "engaged mouth before putting brain in gear," etc. As I mentioned in my first opinion about all of this a few days ago, modders who feel right about it have never hesitated to ask for voluntary contributions and I know of quite a few who have gotten them--and a lot more than the 25% of a set, fixed price from the Workshop would have gained them. But beyond that, so-called full-time modders good enough to make a living need to be employed by the game developers somewhere, not doing nickle & dime work in an amateur status.

 

Modding is much like amateur sports. In the amateur leagues it is wholly against the rules to be paid for your performance, because pro pay is considered to corrupt amateur sports of all kinds (like college football)--and is even illegal, at least by league rules if by no other. More than anything, modding should be *fun*--and if we start monetizing every two-bit texture it's going to kill the fun in modding--and in gaming--pretty quick. And who wants the idiot mobile-phone idea of "gaming"? IMO, for the folks who don't find modding fun and rewarding anymore in an atmosphere of free give and take--well, probably you need to be thinking about something a little-bit less fun and a little more like "work" if that is where you think your head is. Anyway, these little bumps in the road don't matter as long as we get there, right?

[elrofrost]

In response to post #24732344. #24732604, #24732704, #24732709, #24732774, #24732869, #24732879, #24733044, #24733464, #24733739, #24733824, #24733844, #24734224, #24734679, #24734879, #24734924, #24735019, #24735179, #24735629, #24736304, #24736494, #24736934, #24737124, #24737349, #24737389, #24737689, #24737719 are all replies on the same post.

CelticPaladin wrote:

calfurius wrote: I know quite a few modders became disgusted with the way some members of the modding community treated them. I'm mostly concerned if Chesko is coming back or not, he didn't deserve anywhere near the level of hate that he got.

phantompally76 wrote: I hope that's not the case.

I do, however, hope that in future they think twice about arrogantly condescending mod users looking for assistance with their mods in comments sections, like they have in the past. I'd stopped using some of their mods before this crap ever started because of that.

Riprock wrote: Hopefully time will make him realize that words on the internet are just words. We put way too much stock in typed messages.

CelticPaladin wrote: The number of vitriol and death threats were insane. I couldn't blame them for leaving this community behind. It'd be depressing, but there you go.

meredithmiles wrote: What I don't understand is why Arthmoor, Chesko and Isoku don't already have job offers in hand. Seriously, they are all three hardworking, dedicated and skilled. If I ran a game company I'd have snatched them up ages ago.

This is a great time to donate to them, I think.

jfisha wrote: Each team only lost a handful of endorsements. Yes, there was some angry vitriol, but most people respectfully disagreed with what they did. No more, no less.

BarnabasCollins wrote: I don't even see why people were targeting the modders anyway. For me this was never even about the modders, but the future of modding itself. The modders are innocent.

oblivion104 wrote: I stayed away from the melodrama and only sign the petition,but what happened to chesko??

Also, what happened to the paid mods? Did they take it down?

phantompally76 wrote: heh, apt user name there.

Wait, there are mods for Skyrim??????

Noortje wrote: They would never have updated skyui if it wasn't for the pay offer. I doubt they will finish skyui 5.0 and release it now, but it's not like it was ever going to be free in the first place.

Saije wrote: f*#@ that... We weren't black hearted. They were when they gave us a big green middle finger.

SNSDLOVER wrote: Honestly if they love modding and love sharing their mods to us, I doubt theyll leave. Modding could be their hobby or passion so Im certain this wont make them go away.

redrat07 wrote: there were d-threats to people who left to go to the paid system ?

phantompally76 wrote: @redrat, not in the quantities that people here want you to believe.

There was certainly some of it.....there always is. But the vast majority of butthurt mod authors and white knights are including irate mod users who posted "uninstalled and unendorsed, shame on you" along with any amount of criticism in that category. And THOSE comments grossly outnumbered any sort of threats, and were perfectly fair and justified.

BluemaxDR wrote: Oh, they won't stop developing mods. Just stop posting.

Arendella wrote: Chesko I don't have a problem with.

Isoku and SkyUi? definitely will never use their mods again *Will just use old version of SkyUi*. Was just a big slap in the face when he was all giddy about putting his mods up on Steam Workshop just pissing everyone off even more.

jfisha wrote: Thumbs up, Phantompally.

There are some mod authors that are going pull an Anita Sarkeesian and chastise our entire community because of a very small amount of very angry comments, but if you go back and look at comments, you'll notice most of them are people just saying they're disappointed and unendorsing.

Azulyn wrote: jfisha + phantompally76
Amen.
Most of the comments I saw were reasonable criticisms and/or remarks of disappointment, not frothing rage and threats of death and venngeeeaanncceee as all these white knights would have you believe.

tem1980 wrote: Unfortunately, that's the nature of the internet. 90% outrage and ass-holism, 5% controlled nonsense, 5% rational measured thought.

Its actually a pretty decent mirror of the real population, except real people only say the s#*! they do on the internet in RL when they dont think they can be identified or held accountable. Or you know, what the internet allows.

Everyone should try and tune out all the rage and insane s#*!.

jfisha wrote: I'll actually disagree with that, tem. I just think the very angry among us happen to also be the most inclined to write a comment.

WarfighterShaun wrote: May I ask what Isoku did? I have heard of Arthmoor kind of taking the piss out of some people.

sovs wrote: Chesko I don't have a problem with.

Isoku and SkyUi? definitely will never use their mods again *Will just use old version of SkyUi*. Was just a big slap in the face when he was all giddy about putting his mods up on Steam Workshop just pissing everyone off even more.

Same here, Midas Magic was by far one of the most popular mods in Oblivion, i have a hard time believing that he only received enough donations to barely cover fraps as he said.

rickerhk wrote: They made a quite normal assumption that they could get some compensation from their hours and hours of hard work. But the self-entitled toxic Skyrim 'Community' would have nothing of it.

tem1980 wrote: @ jfisha

I just meant the quality of the expression of the anger, not that the 90% were the only ones angry.

phantompally76 wrote: I'm gonna be perfectly honest here, I don't use Arthmoor's mods, and it has nothing to do with this scam.

I just don't like the way he treats mod users asking for help. Even if it's a stupid question that's covered a thousand times in the description or FAQ, a mod author isn't entitled to insult and abuse the people who are doing him a favor by testing and playing with his mods.

Now he's certainly not the only mod author like that. There are a lot of top-100 mods on here I won't use on principle because their authors are total jerks, and again, that has nothing to do with the past 5 days. Their propensity to belittle, condescend and arrogantly patronize mod users over the years is 1000x times worse than the chastisement mod authors have received in the past week.

The point here is that abuse works both ways, and many high-profile mod authors have gotten away with it for far too long, standing on top of their pedestals of superiority. Well, hopefully one of the positives that comes out of this mess is that perhaps mod authors will have a little more appreciation for the mod users who made them famous, and recognize the fact that those same mod users can make them infamous just as easily.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The community got upset. Some things were said that shouldn't have been, but for the most part I believe the outrage was justified. Some of the modders did get to show their true colors, and some of those colors weren't so great. If they decide they don't want to come back to the Nexus, well good luck to them, and we thank them for what they have done before all of this.

Modding is a labor of love. People do it because they enjoy it. Some people do it as a stepping stone to acquire the skills to get a job at a game company. But the bottom line is if you want to get paid for your "work", the modding scene is not the best place for you. Sharpen up your skills and try and get a job at a game company. Most of us have given thousands of dollars to Bethesda over the years. With Skyrim they really dropped the ball--they released an unfinished and buggy game that actually required the modding community to fix it. Trying to squeeze more pennies out of us Elder Scroll fans was a bad idea. If anything, Bethesda should be the ones paying the modders for finishing their game for them.

I hope they don't. Most of us "users" didn't participate in the "debate". It would be a shame if this silliness ended Skyrim modding. I understand feelings were hurt. And people (on both sides) feel betrayed.

But frankly, if Beth and Value had handled this correctly I doubt there would've been so much drama. Some hate, sure- I mean, after all, this is the internet.

But the way Chesko was handled was shocking and downright wrong.
Edited April 28, 2015 by elrofrost

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738799, #24738804 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you. Edited April 28, 2015 by Vesuvius1745