sunshinenbrick

You are moderating the site though right? So therfore you will be officiating the voice of those work which people will be discussing. As an optional opt-in model? No problem whatsoever. But as an automatic opt-in then it is presumptious and infringing. Mining work and products for statistics and data so as to create algorithms in order to change its purpose and scope, and creating new 'products' (bug fixes etc...) is a form of trading encroachment as well as a derivative. Not only that, but it could even turn into a case of libel if things were not handled correctly. I'm not saying it can't be useful far from it, I can see the potantial, but the assertions being used in it's implementation are questionable if not under-handed. The Mona Lisa example is fine as long as it is only 'sold' as such. But if it somehow was being linked back to the original, or even being advertised and better designed, then people have every right to call it for what it is.

Why should the author get a choice? What association are you referring to? Are you saying that Mod Picker is claiming to be officially connected, or affiliated with the mods that get reviewed on its site? How and where are they doing this? First of all, as I understand the temporary solution that allowed modders to upload an ESP to Mod Picker in order to scan for inconsistencies has already been scrapped. So this part of the conversation is essentially moot. Second, I'm not sure that uploading a file to a service without the intent to redistribute actually violates a TOS. It's possible that some modders might specify that you are not allowed to upload their esp anywhere for any reason, but frankly I wouldn't mind seeing a TOS restriction like that challenged in court anyway. This shows a monumental ignorance of what YouTube is. Having seen this response from you, I now understand why you are so concerned. If you can't tell the difference between YouTube and a TV show then you are simply hopelessly confused about how the Internet works. This is absolutely true. But also irrelevant because you have yet to establish that Mod Picker does any of these things. You can go on YouTube right now and see hours upon hours of videos reviewing products that the companies are totally helpless to have taken down. Yes, they get things taken down that violate their copyright or their TOS. Are you asserting that Mod Picker does one of these things? SHOW YOUR GODDAMN WORK. I've only asked the same question of every single one of your assertions and so far not one solid answer. You must realize how sleazy it is to passive-aggressively imply that Mod Picker is in violation of the law without actually backing that statement up. Again you seem to have omitted the parts of the discussion where I have mentioned that things have changed and the reason for people reacting the way they have is because it wasn't presented this way to begin with. Perhaps that is a result of poor planning or simply not realising the issues behind it. A lot of what I have been explaining is the reason why people may feel apprehensive or unconvinced, especially by a platform or model that hasn't actually been tested yet. This accounts for speculation of both sides of the table and admittedly retracts a great deal from some of the points I have been trying to make. In a way the damage has been done, and it is a case of trying to fix what common ground there is left. Why shouldn't the author have a choice if the service is claiming authority over the mod. Which even if it isn't doing explicitly, it is still doing it implicitly. Sorry, 'show' was not the correct word. Station or, rather media platform, was what I was trying to imply. If a TV network has products and views on its shows and infomercials or whatever they can't just go do that willy nilly as they see fit. Well I suppose they could but then they have to risk the possible consequences. Makes perfect sense to me. A highly legitimate concern. So you can explain it then? I can imagine a situation where somebody says "Here, let's use this in our group project. I wrote it." Then that turns out to be plagiarism and rest of the group is implicated by proxy, but I have no idea how that relates to modding. The point is that not all mods on the Nexus are not made from derivatives. So by content being uploaded through a client will likely be violating numerous licence agreements. Also this has absolutely nothing to do with plagiarism. For the record. It is taking other people's work and then claiming as though you had done it yourself, or rather that they gave you permission to do so. Which is obviously the very apex of what we are thumbing around.

I still don't even think they should have an opt-out. I completely agree. If you don't want to associate with Mod Picker, don't go there. Nobody is going to force you to use the service. But if you are going to make mods publicly available, then you have given up the right to control who links to them. I know a lot of people want to treat the Internet like it's not a public forum, but it is. By participating in this community, you open yourself up to be talked about, linked to, reviewed, and tagged. There is just no getting around it. Agreed. If any link or content on Mod Picker violates Mod Picker's terms of service, you should request that it be taken down. Mod Picker comes with a client that compiles information about an author's mod and then uses that information to power how Mod Picker works. The association is already being made and without an opt-out then how is that allowing the author a choice? People are already doing just as you suggest. Makes perfect sense to me. A highly legitimate concern. So you can explain it then? I can imagine a situation where somebody says "Here, let's use this in our group project. I wrote it." Then that turns out to be plagiarism and rest of the group is implicated by proxy, but I have no idea how that relates to modding. The point is that not all mods on the Nexus are not made from derivatives. So by content being uploaded through a client will likely be violating numerous licence agreements. I completely agree. If you don't want to associate with Mod Picker, don't go there. Nobody is going to force you to use the service. But if you are going to make mods publicly available, then you have given up the right to control who links to them. I know a lot of people want to treat the Internet like it's not a public forum, but it is. By participating in this community, you open yourself up to be talked about, linked to, reviewed, and tagged. There is just no getting around it. True... it's not like you can opt-out of getting your mod (or anything really) reviewed or talked about on Youtube etc. Youtube is like a digital magazine or TV show. If they want to offically represent or affiliate with a product or whatever then royalties have to be paid and licences obtained. Companies take stuff down on the Internet all the time. The stuff that gets left up is usually deliberate because it actually promotes the product in a positive way somehow - even if critically. Other than that yes, it is a public space within the guidelines of whoever it is that is hosting the content, and they TOO remove things that violate codes of conduct and such quite often as well.

Makes perfect sense to me. A highly legitimate concern.

I'd like to see pics of the Mod Picker UI saying "Official" and "Affiliate Page." Because I agree that would be straight-up dishonest. Especially since the prime attraction of Mod Picker is the unofficial, peer-to-peer support it provides. I would be surprised if Mod Picker would risk their reputation by labeling their reviews "official" and modders they have no connection as "affiliates" when neither appellation really improves their product. Yeah, Web 3.0 has been going on for a long time now. I'm pretty sure most users will recognize the difference between a review/aggregator site and an actual product site. Those that don't, so what? So morons who aren't willing to learn how to install their mods properly will never figure out that Mod Picker's review page is not the mod author's page and you never see their comment saying "You broke my game!" We hate those people anyway! Another layer of insulation from them would be just dandy. And seriously, "don't like to the author's page?" From a page about their mod? You have got to be joking. If you don't want people to link to your mod, don't post it to the Web. That is your only option. Nobody needs your permission to link to your page. Like I said, things have changed a fair bit from how the project was introduced. It also comes not too long after a similar scheme was suggested in which the people involved were actually malicious, so I can appreciate the apprehension of other authors even if I wasn't really there at the time. I think the important thing for some authors, not all of course, is that it is clear that the Mod Picker page is not representitive of thier views. This, along with the automatic opt-in (originally no opt-out option either...) is what has brustled a few feathers round here - and I certainly don't blame them. People should all be able to choose to dissacociate themselves with things they don't want to support or be a part of, and people are allowed to request links and content to be taken down that they feel violates a terms of service or licence agreement (whether it their own, the Nexus', or even Bethesda's themselves).

I don't see it. I do expect that if you want me to see the world your way then you should have to explain yourself. HOW is Mod Picker guaranteeing support. For god's sake, this seems so obvious to you that you ought to be able to at least attempt to explain it. So far every single one of your "conerns" have boiled down to assertions that Mod Picker will make the worst members of our community worse. This seems improbable to me and you have yet to demonstrate a causal mechanism. OK, I'll try again. Becasue the author is automatically opted in, it means a second 'affiliate page' is created providing 'official' reviews and support for the mod even though the author might not know about it, or want to support the mod outside the place they uploaded it. It's fine to make the service, but just don't link it through to the author's page unless they choose to do so themselves. Even the Nexus itself allows authors to not embed the use of Nexus Mod Manager with their mods.

I'm not sure how this is any different than from how it is now? Also I believe I've read in the document that Mator released yesterday that they would heavily moderate the comments and that support questions etc. (aimed at the mod authors) are not to take place on Mod Picker. Secondly, the way I understand MPs review (and reputation system) is that some user coming in from the street, can't give a mod a rating of zero (expecting a rating system from 0 to 10) because they have no reputation. A user with reputation, has that reputation because they've shown to be knowledgeable about how mods work individually and together. Hopefully Mod Picker will make all our lives easier - users and authors alike... Will it? I don't know, but I guess I'm a glass half full kinda guy where you are the opposite. I would agree with you that there IS a gap that needs to be bridged from 'user' to 'author'. How we do it exactly is important, if not vital. I am glad to see some of the things on that document too and there was a lot of discussion put forth to get that far. I think there are still many discussions going on everywhere about what things need to be addressed and how. I think the Mod Picker team themselves are pretty exhausted too and things need to develop with time. I too hope that Mod Picker, the authors, the Nexus, and the 'users' can find a way to make all this fit together. I am optimistic as I have faith in the ingenuity and creativity of the community as long as everybody keeps talking and thinks of the collective as well as the individual.

I'm seeing a pattern here. You think that people should have your level of expertise before they receive any benefits that you didn't have. You've read 50 pages of off-topic discussion, so I should read 50 pages of off-topic discussion before I can comment on the matter. You've read 50 pages of installation manuals, so you think all users should have to read 50 pages of instruction manuals. You've read the initial press release/advertisement and had your opinion of Mod Picker formed by it, so you think I should also form my opinion around this initial release even though I never had those misconceptions. You have yet to demonstrate the relevance of this. So what? We're still people offering goods and services. We're just offering them for free and with no guaranteed support. That's because you're tired. Trust me, that paragraph was complete nonsense. I'm not entriely sure how you define benefits, but as this conversation seems to be coming down to how people define things, then to be quite honest I do have better things to do. The support is being further guaranteed through this system, I am at a loss if you fail to see this. I am very sorry. Meh...

Come now. You know that was gibberish. Maybe get some sleep. When you wake up, reread the paragraph I called gibberish. You'll see it's pretty much nonsense. It's not as true for the side of the argument that has pointed out that there already exist thousands of sites that perform a similar function for other niches. Comparisons to PCPartPicker, Amazon, and Yelp have already been made. The internet has done very well with the wiki-style of crowd sourcing. You can't really be surprised that it's come to modding finally. You do realise that modders are not paid right? The people at PCParts, Amazon etc etc are. As for the other comment, I'm afraid I just don't understand what you are saying. :confused:

I'm certainly willing to do some work, but I have been modding for 15 years now and I have never not once had to read "50+ pages" to install many mods together let alone one mod. My car's manual is 50+ pages and I didn't even have to read my way all the way through it before I started the car and drove off in it for the first time. But I see what you are saying, I think. Users tend to want to learn and do the minimum possible to get whatever they want to use up and running. This is true in every area of life. And ideally, shouldn't users have to do almost nothing to install a mod? Those 15 years of modding have resulted in ever-increasing levels of automation, from Wrye Mash to Mod Organizer, to the SkyUI MCM. The number of mods with complex install instructions is positively minimal compared to number with simple 1-2 click download and installation. I think it takes 3 clicks to get a mod downloaded and running in MO? I agree that a certain amount of involvement may be expected from the end user, but in my opinion it should be as minimal as possible. If a user isn't willing to read 50+ pages in order to get a mod running and the mod maker isn't able or willing to simplify the process, then the user will have to forego that mod. Note that this is exactly the same situation as today, and remains exactly equally true whether the user found the mod through mod picker, Skyrim GEMS, a YouTube video, or STEP. You have explained it but you have not demonstrated it. If you could just cite this advertisement so I could see for myself. Everything else here is pure speculation. An automated process for users sounds awesome. Sign me up. I didn't *censored* and moan about SKSE or MCM when those tools came along and people started expecting more from their mods, I'm not going to complain about something that sounds like it will make everybody's life easier. Just imagine if that "easy to use environment" was easier to use than writing a 50+ page installation manual? AND since it is automated and users no longer have to read a 50+ installation manual, you get fewer complaints and complications down the line! There is a reason almost every complex mod on the Nexus recommends using a mod manager over manual installation, and it's because conforming to the mod manager's requirements and relying on the tool is far more efficient than ignoring those requirements and relying on the users. This is gibberish. I'm not willing to read 50+ pages of off-topic discussion. Please link to at least one post that explains the relationship between mod picker and paid mods, or explain it yourself. Otherwise I really have no choice but to ignore this claim. 50 pages is an aggregate number and more in reference to the unwillingness to read the discussion where all of this has already taken place. You can see myself actually being one of the 'few' vocal members of that discussion trying to point out and develop the positive aspects of the system and how it could work for everyone. Link. I am tired after some 72 hours of little sleep and constant posting/mailing to try and calm both sides of this debate so my apologies for not combing through 15 or so threads trying to find quotes to answer all these questions. Especially when I am told they are 'gibberish' and not likely to be read anyway. True a lot of this is speculation, and this is true on all sides of the argument. There has not even been any kind of public beta yet of such a huge project. I have spoke with various members of the team on numerous occasions and I know how keen they seem to be on making this project right and to turn it into something that people can really use without causing issues with a community undergoing some big changes, both from the developer side and the Nexus site redesign itself. It is somewhat possible that if we insist on also considering paid mods then it is the console market where the mechanics of such an organisation of information would become very advantagous, if not necessary. There are lots of cooks in this kitchen...

I don't understand this concept. Who is forcing you? If a user can't figure out how to implement your mod, and they go grab their virtual pitchfork and torch and leave disparaging comments on some third party site, how is that any different from here? Just this morning I saw a user post on a mod page that no one should ever download the mod because it will forever break all the things Skyrim (or something equally silly). I'm not taking a shot at anyone, I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel that this can force a higher workload on an author. What exactly is your obligation as a mod author? To fix things that are broken in your work, sure. To make using the mod dummy proof so some third party site will give you a thumb's up? Not in my opinion. Maybe I'm just over simplifying. I am just a simple country girl after all, and will probably never stray far from what works for me - Nexus Mods. Because this is the platform that the author chooses to provide support from. If the main point of contact is then moved the author has to provide supprt both there and here. There is no obligation as such but the risk of having bad reviews 'officially' associated with you just because people can't use the mod, expect too much or maybe the modder is ill or working to pay the bills. This is a whole additional level of scrutiny and pressure on people who are mostly just doing it for fun and as a past-time. Have a review site by all means but don't mix it in with compatibility issues (which Bethesda has something to answer for as well) and don't officially associate it with the author unless they choose to do so. This is all we are asking. But many of these things are not being guaranteed by the Mod Picker team. In fact they have at times been very aggressive with our voicing of concerns, practically saying 'shut up, and take it anyway'. Not a great way to improve cohesion. As we have clarified, things can be bad already but if the conversation is both moved away from the author and if there is not enough focus on the user's responsibility in the process then it very easily will just make the whole situation worse. I am in all favour of having a 'learn to mod' platform, but as I have said that is not what we have been implied it would be like, until very recently. Even then it all seems very rushed and there are still massive questions, and practicalities that need to be ironed out. I just pointed them out to you a couple of posts ago. If you are unwilling to read the stuff so as to see things for yourself, then I'm afraid that is part of the problem... Paid mods is more than likely returning, which is yet another reason why modders are watching Bethesda carefully to see what they do. Mod Picker could potentially increase the work load for authors who are already overworked, exhausted and most likely not swimming in cash either. Again a lot of this is dicussed in the threads I linked. Sorry, I don't see where you bullet pointed the mod authors concerns. I saw a long post from you talking about paid modding, some original press release that was not cited, and wailing about how kids these days don't know how to properly replace the transmission on a '63 Chevy so the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket. I did not see one valid concern that was on-topic. I do not understand how Mod Picker increases the workload of modders if paid mods return. Please at least connect these dots for me. Though I again I will reiterate that this seems like such a minor concern it's safe to say that Mod Picker is mostly approved of by mod authors, because being concerned that the site might increase your workload in the event of paid mods hypothetically returning is even less of serious concern than worrying that the percentage of users who upvote a comment in order for it to become a permanent part of the page might need to be tweaked. My utmost apologies for not catering to compiling and sumarising a 50 page document into nice bite size chunks for you. I sometimes forget that I am not at work and am not being paid £20 an hour... silly me. To break it down then it goes like this. Mod 'user' wants such and such a game in such and such a way --> Mod Picker says 'hey look at all these mods that are easy for you to use' --> 'User' cannot be bothered to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly --> Modder is then forced to endlessly work to provide for an increasingly clueless user base. No need to apologize. Just don't claim that you already did it. If you don't claim that you already did something you didn't do then there's no need for me to point out that you actually did not do it. As for your last paragraph, I do not understand it at all. Users are generally unwilling to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly for a mod. I sure as hell am not willing to. Hell I wouldn't read a 50 page tutorial on almost anything. Maybe some cutting edge tech in the lab. Maybe. It seems that your concern comes from the idea that Mod Picker will make users "increasingly clueless." How exactly do you feel that Mod Picker will do this, and, again, what does this have to do with paid mods? I didn't use bullet points but I did go some way to try and summarise many of the points being made. Again, my apologies. Why are you not willing to learn how to get mods working together? Out of curiosity? With all the tools and load sorters and what not it is a pretty straight forward process already anyway. If no body would have bothered to read anything we would still be stuck where things were 15 years ago. I have explained twice now, at least here, that the way Mod Picker was advertised was as an 'automated process for users' to install different mods. It made no indication of actually showing users how things work nor how to fix problems if they had any. It was a 'click to play' system, and that automation and easy to use environment has to be made possible by someone. And it takes a lot of work, with very little in return except the wants of users. I believe, and many others here do to, that users should not be seen, and are not, people who cannot do things. In a way Mod Picker just assumes that they can't, and never will. Paid mods is a conjunctive issue that has an impact on many areas of the community/industry that is sometimes subtle but equally profound. I have already touched upon a number of those subjects here already and provided links to things that go into it. But as it seems to not be making and headway then I suppose we can omit the need to go there anymore, for now.

I just pointed them out to you a couple of posts ago. If you are unwilling to read the stuff so as to see things for yourself, then I'm afraid that is part of the problem... Paid mods is more than likely returning, which is yet another reason why modders are watching Bethesda carefully to see what they do. Mod Picker could potentially increase the work load for authors who are already overworked, exhausted and most likely not swimming in cash either. Again a lot of this is dicussed in the threads I linked. Sorry, I don't see where you bullet pointed the mod authors concerns. I saw a long post from you talking about paid modding, some original press release that was not cited, and wailing about how kids these days don't know how to properly replace the transmission on a '63 Chevy so the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket. I did not see one valid concern that was on-topic. I do not understand how Mod Picker increases the workload of modders if paid mods return. Please at least connect these dots for me. Though I again I will reiterate that this seems like such a minor concern it's safe to say that Mod Picker is mostly approved of by mod authors, because being concerned that the site might increase your workload in the event of paid mods hypothetically returning is even less of serious concern than worrying that the percentage of users who upvote a comment in order for it to become a permanent part of the page might need to be tweaked. My utmost apologies for not catering to compiling and sumarising a 50 page document into nice bite size chunks for you. I sometimes forget that I am not at work and am not being paid £20 an hour... silly me. To break it down then it goes like this. Mod 'user' wants such and such a game in such and such a way --> Mod Picker says 'hey look at all these mods that are easy for you to use' --> 'User' cannot be bothered to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly --> Modder is then forced to endlessly work to provide for an increasingly clueless user base.

I literally just pointed them out to you a couple of posts ago. If you are unwilling to read things so as to see it for yourself, then I'm afraid that is part of the problem... Paid mods is more than likely returning, which is yet another reason why modders are watching Bethesda carefully to see what they do. Mod Picker could potentially increase the work load for authors who are already overworked, exhausted and most likely not swimming in cash either. Again a lot of this is dicussed in the threads I linked.

What the hell do paid mods have to do with this conversation? If you can link to this original press release, then it might help illuminate some of the mod authors' concerns if the original release was truly so misleading. Personally I never saw anything like that. But surely if there were concerns about authors being expected to "slave away and provide for 'user' needs/wants" in order to get their mod "eliminated" (honestly I have no idea what this sentence even means), then those concerns have been assuaged by now seeing as we are on page 9 and this is the first time anybody has even mentioned that idea. Paid mods meant that people suddenly had a lot more to lose. It also meant that it turned what was largely a hobby for most people into a business and all the things that come with it. Without even giving anyboady a say in what the terms would be. A long and thorough discussion from both sides of this debate can be found here (amongst probably a thousand others...). Have you read through all the 50+ pages of it here?

I think people on the user side may not be aware of how the 'mod picker' was sold to authors. It was practically said that there would be a sort of 'mod builder', or PCPartPicker or something, that didn't specify what input would be required from the 'user' other than selecting what they want. In all purpose it sound like a plug'n'play mod platform, where the elimination of popular mods would be determined by how much authors were willing to slave away and provide for 'user' needs/wants. Being a 'user' myself (among lecturer, designer, boyfriend, son etc...), turned author, I would have loved an initiative to create a 'super-database', if you will, of compiled wikis, tutorials, official bug releases etc... etc... and have been one of the people to suggest this idea in recent discussions. But that is NOT what the initial press release (to Nexus modders) was pitching. Not at all. I agree that this is the very place where 'users' can help other 'users' by asking them questions and sharing wikis, links, and videos that show you how to do something. There is as someone else said a huge amount of this stuff out there if you take the time to look. How else do people think the 'authors' of today got there themselves? There is no other way than to learn things the way everybody else does. To make it any 'easier' is to actually do a disservice and to take 'user's for chumps. Now this DOES bring into question as to why 'users' are feeling that they cannot get this information or that it is wrong. Well in some respects I partly blame the automation of the process already. People are not learning manual mod building/installing and the more fundamental practices are being eroded. Working in schools I see the same thing and technology in general has this effect. Since I started having a spell checker my spelling has deteriorated BUT I take the time to make the correction and computers actually empower these skills. Yet, things are getting so bad in the pursuit of profit that people are getting into the habit of not doing this and relying too much on technology. The other reason, and perhaps 'authors' have to take some awareness of this, and that is paid mods. The tidal wave around this had been brewing pretty much from the release of Skyrim. People were getting eager for recognition for their work after Beth kept there cards forever close to their chest. Then they clustered everyone and caused absolute chaos by not communicating and discussing through respectful and open debate. Instead they went through a third party and then took a massive dump on their avid fan base. The point I am making here is that there are many very valid reasons why things have become tenuous and people's motives have been questioned. I can see both sides of this but essentially we must try to see our similarities as well as our differences, as at the end of the day we mostly all want the same thing... more mods, more people making mods and the opportunity to increase our skills and portfolio. Oh, and to hopefully scratch some sort of living when Zenimax finally get there $hit together :rolleyes: Personally however, I am not convinced paid mods (or mod picker) will necessarily solve any of the issues we have.

More a computers and communications person myself :smile: I would say the only possibly attractive part of the leave scenario, for me, is a slightly better chance we won't need any guns (or much of anything else for that matter either - including a United Kingdom). We would probably still be selling them to the rest of the world though... with the eventuality of ending up having to use them in the end, and this is the least attractive part of the leave scenario, for me.

Who knows? Politics are so infested with opportunists, liars and hidden agendas that one visable event or policy can have tons of hidden motives behind them. Motives that even contradict other motives because of so many top players, with us caught bearing the brunt of the outcome. As the crow flies, eh? :wink: Or is that a raven? I am always making that mistake! This is what scares me to the point of finding it hard to be cynical anymore... Imagine that?! :laugh: But then what of our will to change things? Are we just to lie down like lambs? Must it come to our grizzly demise? Cannot all the people of this world actually wake up from the dream by realising all the same things that we are suggesting, here, right now?

So if the EU is a Soviet project then why is the USA so keen to keep it together? And why is Putin supporting a Brexit so openly?

Thank you for your answer, I will go through some of your concerns. You made some valid points I want to address. The work is done by the community, this includes users, powerusers, and modders alike. There is an utility on its way made by Mator (the guy behind Mator Smash and Merge Plugins) which will pull the technical data from the ESP like xEdit. This should make sure that the information posted has a certain degree of validity. It will still require some oversight and staff-work to make sure that quality is assured, but as far as I heard they are aware of the issue of wrong submissions and have plans on how to deal with those. Mod Picker is for people who want a quick way to build bigger load orders, even big mods can have conflicts with some smaller ones which are not directly obvious. It still won't be click to play, maybe in conjunction with Nexusmods' NMM profiles? Not sure, but I don't think it will cause people to completely ignore the technical site of modding. They will still have to do conflict resolution on their own. Also People who want to learn modding will do so, sometimes modding is born out of necessity (unofficial patches for example), the desire to improve the game or to do it better than another mod. I understand what you mean, but I'm not sure if it will turn out as bad as you anticipate, but it's a valid concern and it's hard to really make a definitive statement about it. That would require us to be able to see into the future :smile: I had this concern at first too, even when Mod Picker was just an idea. But the more I thought about it, the less of an issue I saw. Also maybe a lot more people will be interested in modding as they would have the possibility get into modding easier? This goes to anyone I address in my posts: I hope I didn't cause any offense to any of you. If some of my words come off as too harsh, I want to excuse myself for that. A good discussion isn't driven by insults or a harsh tone, but sometimes I might not be able to see that myself. So again, sorry if I have been to harsh. Thanks for your reply and thoughts Netrve! I am totally hearing you and understand where you are coming from. I actually saw a lot of what you said as potential in the idea at first. There are a few other elements to it that are of concern to an author though. The biggest issue is apparently not being able to choose whether to be part of the programme or not. This means that an already overworked and exhausted modder will have to provide even more support, PR and updates than they do already. It is not even clear that these would be of essential benefit either because they will be driven by a populist reputation system. The potential being that modder has to make X even if they want to make Y. All the while people are looking for Z but no one is making it becasue it might get bad reviews. All of this extra work and being told what to do of course it at the cost of the modder. The post before this one resonates what you have said in the need for some sort of Mod User feature that helps new modders to learn what things are and how they all go together. I am so interested in something like that I would contribute my time to it as it is sorely needed. As it stands however, from what mod authors have been told, this is not anything like what is being offered. Rather what is being sold IS exactly the environment in which a 'gamer' can create a functioning mod list and just start playing, like buying a game from Steam. All of that extra work to make it run smoothly falls on the modder. Let us also not forget that all of these fantasies we have completely and utterly depend on what Bethesda want to do. If they change everything or even lock the CK down in anyway then all of this is pure folly anyway! Please understand that most modders want people to get involved and learn how to use their stuff, make suggestions and help out. After all most modders are just one person who likely have jobs (like myself) or even a family. Maybe this project can be morphed into something that everybody wants/needs, and I sincerely hope that compromises and mutual benefits can be found because the modding scene could do with it. But as it stands there is very little in it for the modder and in fact they have the most to lose out of it. Thank you again for your contributions to the discussion and for being fair in your comments :thumbsup:

Mod Picker is primarily a PCPartPicker equivalent for mods. The main purpose is to allow users a simple and fast way to pick mods and combine them, being supplied with information like potential conflicts and requirements. It's not a site with the primary function of reviewing mods or helping small mods to become more popular. The reviews are there to give the user a rough impression of a mod, helping them in making their decision when building their load order. I explained my point towards the Reviews in my post in this thread earlier: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4036140-mod-picker-the-fearsome-juggernaut/page-3&do=findComment&comment=36923915 Mod Picker's job isn't to help small mods either, it could, but that's not its goal and that's fine. No one is obligated to support newer mods or lesser known mods, it's something people choose to do. There is never a valid reason why someone should be forced to help a lesser known mod, even if it's a website aimed at helping people building their load order. Your mod is a product like everyone else's mod. To the user, all mods are the same before testing. It doesn't matter what personal value you associate with your mod or what kind of popularity your mod deserves in your opinion, for the one downloading the mod it doesn't matter. The end result (aka how the mod performs) is what matters. Second, only because you don't have a problem checking for conflicts on your own and choosing mods accordingly, doesn't mean everyone can do that. Some people have immense problems doing what "hardcore" modders can do. Your argument sounds elitist and disregards any other possible view here. Some modders go above and beyond when it comes to modding, but should they expect everyone else to do the same? To decompile, rewrite and compile the mods? To change entire file structures and esps? To redo models and textures? How about writing a few SKSE plugins as well or write your own HLSL shaders? I have done those things, but that's anything but a reason to expect others to do the same. Some people can't, don't have the time or don't want to. That's totally fine. There is nothing disrespectful or dismissive in a tool helping less capable users to assemble their load order. This comes off as highly egoistc, as sorry as I'm to say that. This reminds me of the people complaining about the rumor Dark Souls getting an easier difficulty. It doesn't affect you, it doesn't influence you. It's an option for the less capable players out there. There isn't really a reason why other people shouldn't enjoy a game in their own way. I would like to see a harder difficulty, but does an easier one hurt me? No, because it's optional. Nothing forces anyone to use it. Everyone should be able to play it their way, the same goes for mods. Everyone should be allowed and be able to make a load order without having to learn the depths of modding themselves. I appreciate that people like these things to be simple. Problem is that they are not. Someone has to do the work... and unlike PCPartsPicker or whatever, modders are not being paid. Between NMM, LOOT and WryeBash it is pretty straight forward to get most mods working. Maybe not new modder mods and not WIP mods, but the vast majority of them, including the 'biggest and best', are pretty much plug and play. What would be much more useful perhaps is some sort of platform or project that collated a lot of the 'how-to', wikis and tutorials so that the less experienced can learn much quicker and easily how everything works. This way not only do mods and modding become easier to use but then these people can make there own mods and customise their game so much more. Furthermore, if everything is just made 'click to play' for everybody then there will be less people making mods (or those who know how too). Over time people will get bored of the content available and the modding scene will actually suffocate to death. I apologise if any of this is seems disrespectful, this is the complete opposite of my intention! I am a mod user and avid gamer and I came into this whole thing completely blind (I only joined during Fallout 3 with no NMM, STEP, GEMS or anything like that). It was hard work, and at times I felt very dumb and incompetent. But there are so many people actually willing to help if you ask and there is vast amounts of information and guides (see my comment above about collating such information) that will not only open the game out like never before but is also highly rewarding. If anything it is actually about empowering the player/modder rather than just assuming they can't do it.

I could not agree with you more. Well said!

If one is not interested in modding as well as using mods then I can see why the problems of such a 'tool' are not fully understood or appreciated.

Oh come now, we both know that never happens. :D You know me all too well obviously :wink:

Whoa! Sorry I got a bit carried away there! LOL! :laugh:

I also very much agree that this is a 'user' orientated tool and not one that is of any real benefit to authors. Whether it was this thread or the orignal MA thread it has been mentioned that this could help unknown/new authors but there have been many examples pointed out in which many of the features of Mod Picker would not solve this issue and perhaps even make it worse. It is perhaps the most interesting potential feature BUT is not something that warrants a whole new site in my opinion. It would be much more useful and effective to have a 'surprise me' search, or mod 'theme' builder, integrated straight into the Nexus itself. Besides that is where everything resides in the first place. If people want to make a review site then go ahead, but associating it and 'representing' the Nexus and the views of the authors in any way is a massive no no. This is obvious though and is the same as any review site that is not officially endorsed cannot claim to be. Going further on the point of market orientation. I am a 'user', most of us are, but have over the years made my way into some heavy modding and then began writing guides and now getting into shaders. This has been done without any need for a 'compatibility checker' and by actually learning how to mod. This is the only way. Claiming that by making it easier to install mods will make better modders is a fallacy and is actually disrespectful and dismissive of the mod making process and even of 'users' themselves. I have actually had a long run-in (even with Dark0ne himself) as the appropriateness of actually using the term 'user', as I believe it has an often negative, supressive effect in saying that 'you are a user and NOT an author'. This irritates me because it just doesn't work like that - we all have to start somewhere. But I digress (a little). The major point here is that the system proposed would actually embed the lines between 'authors' and 'users' and further divide the realtionship between the two. It could easily create resentment form authors because 'users' are being given the false impression that they are now 'modders', and then in turn would create resentment from the 'users' because they will have less of an idea about why certain things cannot be done, or that the modder simply doesn't have the time to do it, and then ultimately becasue the knowledge of how mods are made is being overly simplified and eroded. It is deceptive and in many ways exploitative. The last thing which really concerns me is the apparent 'muscle' being used to corner authors into being part of the program. In the scale of things 'authors' are definitely the minority camp here. As a 'user' myself this is obviously a great sell, but this is only a very small part of a much larger picture. In the long run it will actually disable 'users' from getting the skills they need to mod because they don't have to learn anything. This will eventually mean less modders and yes, as someone else stated, be detrimental to the future of the community. Let us also face the fact that installing mods and combing them together is not really that hard actually, if you know what you are doing and take time to read and learn. This is actually a part of what makes modding so special and rewarding, you feel like you have earned it and it also teaches you skills you can transfer to many other areas. This system would potentially take that away from people so in many respects is actually a diservice to both 'users' and 'authors' Like I have said here now and in other posts/threads, there ARE potential uses for some of the features suggested and I am glad to see that finally the airways are opening up to consider peoples' concerns so that compromises/negotiation can take place. There needs to be much, MUCH more of this before any kind of system is thrust upon an already fragile community. If not handled well and simply bulldozed through regardless, then the 'slavery' reference may not end up being so out of context as people have suggested...