sunshinenbrick

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The gangs are not the community leaders. They don't care about the community other than what they can take from it. These are not radicalized idealist. They are people fighting other people such as themselves for the spoils they can take from a public that can't defend against them. You really don't know what's going on up there do you. It is not the public that is armed. It is the gangs that will kill you for speaking out, because they know that they and the police are to only one's armed. They also know that they outgun the police in manpower and firepower. I would care less what a politician thought, since they want to look good by doing as little as possible, instead of taken care of a situation. Chicago has been a corupt city from it's earliest roots and is still that way today. And don't expect that to change. The ONLY way the NG would be called out, is if the Governor asked for it to happen. That would be his last term as governor, and the end of his career in politics. YOU may not care about that, but, you can bet your bottom dollar the governor would care. (and thus, will never do it.) I should have put 'leaders' in quotes..... as they may not meet the connotations of being community leaders, they are, in fact, the ones that are in control. At least, of their respective 'territories'. Now, you think sending a bunch of white guys with automatic weapons into that situation, and telling them to 'clean it up' is a good idea? That is a recipe for disaster. The military is, by no stretch of the imagination, an arm of law enforcement. They have zero training to such an end, and we see how well it worked out in Iraq, and Afghanistan. Turning Chicago into even more of a war zone than it is now, is just a bad plan. The press would have a field day with it..... "Martial law declared in chicago."....... Wouldn't that be fun? And with it only happening in the predominately black neighborhoods..... Oh my.... You wouldn't solve any problems. You would introduce more, and start a race war too boot. the illusion of being apart of something based on the number of people their instead of any sense of brotherhood. These people prey on anyone and anything, which is why gangs form. First for protection and the for profit Gangs such as what you describe, form because there is no other body to represent the realities of the lives they face. Yes, of course there will be 'roadies' and 'phonies', but that is the case across the scale, right up into the mothership itself. Look at the crooks pushing the corners of government.

The problem with any kind of 'embedded' corruption like that is it very quickly becomes a messy ball of yarn that everybody gets real scared of tripping over. You don't have to be black or live in Chicago to be Gangsta™.

All roads lead to Rome.

It is curious how we actually seem to be collectively seeking a kind of 'Dark Ages' of our own, after all our 'Enlightenment'. Perhaps it is all just too much to bear as empires crumble and transform. Interesting to consider that perhaps it is the circles of knowledge that got smaller, and not necessarily the knowledge itself.

Your correct in that the outcome of the rabbit hole is undetermined , but your incorrect in that your seeing things as they are . The idea is you dont know what it is your seeing and enter the rabbit hole anyway and instead of coming to your original intent or path down the rabbit hole , you are beset by forces or events beyond your control and how they turn out is dependent on how you fall which is not in your control because your falling. Alice goes through this process many times in the story and for her it turns out well , for Europe thats to be determined. I believe I alluded to and made a similar point further on in my post: I agree with you, and it is this which allows us to see all the options on the table, even if we can't see the labels. I'm not convinced that chasing rabbits through fences will lead to anything less than tears and "off with your head!", so I will wait here in my tree, because there is an expectation... but it is very late! :wink:

I recently watched a documentary on that very study. What I got from it was that people were the system, and they slowly developed their own 'derivative' methods and created new futures. It is right that these things don't just stop and disappear. We always are in a Wonderland is also the message I get from this. And so the rabbit hole becomes the window into 'seeing things as they are' so as to deter from the path. What this suggests (and my intent of the original post) is we should not easily dismiss our ability to think freely and that what is at the 'end' of the rabbit hole is thus 'undetermined'. It is true the war horns are blaring away, and have for some time (if they ever really stopped). If it was politically correct (and economically beneficial) to say "war's a commin'" then they would. Heck, it is pretty loud and clear if you watch TV for a few minutes. They are calling for people to 'join them' ('they' will be miles away and safe btw!) in their Wonderland. Yes we may just be tunneling rabbit holes, but there is still time to 'wake up' so as to stop the earth above collapsing in on us. Of course it does beg the question as to whether the rabbit hole itself is also a Wonderland. Is freedom therefore only an illusion? I suppose that would just further the absurdum, or perhaps reverse it, depending which side of the glass you were looking at. P.S. The final innuendo was to say I am reluctant to encourage and detail the discussions on how people can be rounded up like a cattle-market for the promotion of ever more inequality, indulgence and exploitation. There is already plenty of this around in a world hell-bent on a reminisce of history like it was a nostalgic theme park. If there is any interest in what is behind the curtains then I'll be here, otherwise I'll be off playing Pokemon Go... (*ironic sarcasm alert!*)

Reductio ad Absurdum? Indeed, I also thought about that when I thought about it... :laugh: Alas! A 'double entendre'! So I came to replace it with this... ...but you beat me to it! :ninja: EDIT: Wow! Given recent events, the visceral certainly does appear to be able to lend itself from the abstract.

Control freaks are petty tyrants and these are one's that lean towards the left so much that they deem anything the right has to say is irrelevant. Our country, for a very long time has been saturated by moralist from the right coating the social conscience with vague terms like, "Family Values" and the like. Those who are being discussed here are of the same caliber of tyrant than those moralists were, only they've turned their attention towards left leaning issues and use the term Progressive much the same way as terrorists are using the name of Islam as a cover. I get that, and so just by exercising speech it does not make you either left or right, it is the authority given towards what is said that actually matters - all governments are centrist in their nature. There is however also a right to say nothing at all (or perhaps to lie) and to not be judged by that. This might be the last hope for the unprivileged libertarian in a world predominant with privileged authorities. Of course things are not as simple as this, for what is one person's garden is another's prison.

I'd agree with most of these classifications of authoritarianism however would maybe point out that the political spectrum is irrelevant at this point (if it ever has been). It's a ruse to get people who would otherwise agree with each other, not to, or at least to deflect the issue away from those... in authority.

The very idea of 'illegal immigration' is a part of the way that we are all made to fit into the machine we so ardently fight against. Just think about it for a moment, the system is in large ways broken right now, all you need to do is believe you are free and that is most of it. To be free within boundaries is the most potent part of how the 'pyramid' works. It is easy to feel hopeless as they (the upper parts of society) are essentially the same. They have to be, because why would they change things when they are the ultimate beneficiaries of our turmoil as well as our 'contentment'. We are between a rock in a hard place and perhaps it is all to little too late, but only for us 'minions' really. We will squabble and fight over scraps while we are looked over by the real players among the haze of champagne, smoke, and mirrors. It might be that the only way to stop war is to realise we are already in one. Not all war is guns and blood (although there is plenty of this happening already) i.e. Cold War 2.0™. Maybe it must be our intelligence, communication, psychology, and our resolve that might actually be able to make the real change that everyone wants - balance, freedoms, equality etc..

I thought you might say that, and I hope I agree :wink: However, I would be wary handing out too much morale praise to politicians, because they are trained illusionists who will steal from right under your nose in such a way as to make you think you'd cut it off yourself... I would also say a lot of credit should also be given to the many people and workers who gave their lives as communities across the country were ripped apart (much to the benefit of the bankers and elites who created this mess and have continued to steal from the people ever since). The freedoms and liberties we (used to) enjoy today, were not given to us. Not all wars are fought by drones in a distant land. My view of Politicians is much akin to Twain's..."Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." Now, on that there is no mistake! :no:

I thought you might say that, and I hope I agree :wink: However, I would be wary handing out too much morale praise to politicians, because they are trained illusionists who will steal from right under your nose in such a way as to make you think you'd cut it off yourself... I would also say a lot of credit should also be given to the many people and workers who gave their lives as communities across the country were ripped apart (much to the benefit of the bankers and elites who created this mess and have continued to steal from the people ever since). The freedoms and liberties we enjoy today (or perhaps, used to...) were not given to us, they were fought for, and not all wars are won by drones in distant lands.

Yea through propaganda, lies and bigotry. UK managed to lose a large portion of their money, their GDP still hasn't recovered fully, the leaders who orchestrated leave are stepping down left and right, Northern Ireland and Scotland are pissed off due to a majority being in remain which could lead to both of them leaving the UK, poor areas of the UK will no longer get the EU benefits they relied on, city councils are finding out they've been lied to by Leave who said "hey we'll make sure you get the same amount of relief money the EU gave you" but whoops nope not happening, the NHS won't see an increase and due to the open entry and easy foreign employment EU citizens saw they will no longer be getting doctors and nurses to support their understaffed hospitals which is becoming a big problem and more and more hate crimes and speech are being reported in England. UK certainly did the math, except they got a big fat F on the test. Freedom is worth more than money, a concept the Brits still believe in. I fully understand why they prefer elected leaders in London rather than appointed bureaucrats in Brussels. Given European history I'll give the Brits an A+ in Poly Sci. From what I gathered, one of the main reasons for leaving was to actually curb people's freedoms, or at least to... *cough*... 'redirect' them. What I see is a lot of EU sour grapes, much like the crazy ex that won't comprehend its over even after being told so. "People who trade freedom for security usually end up with neither"- Ben Franklin Shouldn't have cheated on them then :laugh: Your quote can be read in more than one way... It can be easily said that the idea was to buy into security - 'Take Control' 'No Freedom of Movement' etc... etc... This is perhaps the result they got (emphasis on they), and it will unlikely be applicable to the vast majority of us. Well in a way it might, but then social disorder and division is not going to be very beneficial to us. Again, to the upper classes it will remain 'business as usual', as it always does. Now this is not to say that it isn't predictable nor that it necessarily be the worst case scenario in the long run, however it is perhaps important to note the actual freedoms and securities of which have been gained/rejected. The real problem with the EU is that it actually gives TOO MUCH power and freedom to its citizens (well according to certain business, corporate, and political interests that is). In such times as when there is much uncertainty (The Financial Crash 2008™ is still only in its early stages) this 'people means of production' creates a very big problem for investors because markets need to be much more dynamic and fluid so as to maintain the large amounts of growth they need, however people are much less willing to take risks in new industries (and life in general) - and the crunch of it being that the larger investors don't actually want them to, because they don't really want the competition. What this all means is that there is lack of faith in the classical neo-liberal free market capitalism that got us to where we are today. It has been corrupted to the point where it isn't working for people the way it was originally sold. So the reset button was pushed... BOOM! #'We're gonna go Back in Time' 'diddle doot doot doot doot doo!' Time for neo-neo-liberal 'free market' economics, and so we are back in the 1980's. All that is missing now is Thatcher and Reagan... Oh, wait a minute! Who are these fine people over here??! Phew! So, we will get to use these shiny water cannons after all! The system cannot be allowed to 'fail', so give people a false choice, sell them their freedom and then watch them all run around like turkeys voting for Christmas. It may (no pun intended) have been a contingency plan, but the agenda will stay the same.

Yea through propaganda, lies and bigotry. UK managed to lose a large portion of their money, their GDP still hasn't recovered fully, the leaders who orchestrated leave are stepping down left and right, Northern Ireland and Scotland are pissed off due to a majority being in remain which could lead to both of them leaving the UK, poor areas of the UK will no longer get the EU benefits they relied on, city councils are finding out they've been lied to by Leave who said "hey we'll make sure you get the same amount of relief money the EU gave you" but whoops nope not happening, the NHS won't see an increase and due to the open entry and easy foreign employment EU citizens saw they will no longer be getting doctors and nurses to support their understaffed hospitals which is becoming a big problem and more and more hate crimes and speech are being reported in England. UK certainly did the math, except they got a big fat F on the test. Freedom is worth more than money, a concept the Brits still believe in. I fully understand why they prefer elected leaders in London rather than appointed bureaucrats in Brussels. Given European history I'll give the Brits an A+ in Poly Sci. From what I gathered, one of the main reasons for leaving was to actually curb people's freedoms, or at least to... *cough*... 'redirect' them.

Rather than failing necessarily, I like to think of it more like this... It's great for sum (*wink wink*), but not so much when things stop adding up and the s*** starts hitting the fan!

Economic migrants, created by decades of indulgence and exploitation by Western (and other) powers/dreams. What's more is how we seem to repeatedly miss the fact that if we continue to blame the 'poor and disadvantaged' (i.e. eachother), it will become a self fulfilling prophecy in which we will all end up being targeted by governments (and other corporations) and become 'economic migrants' within our own countries (or even homes, with IoT etc...). No freedom of movement? Be careful what you wish for. I guess people still live in bubbles, and that is why they will keep bursting. One has to wonder if there is any room for truth in 'democracy' anymore. Maybe it's just too dangerous - or 'too big to fail' I think is the phrase... While there can appear 'simplistic' solutions, geopolitical economics and sociology is very broad and often confusing - mind-bending even. However, I am not convinced a complete mark to market of ideas is the best, or even a desirable, option yet. Not anymore than it has already been, that is.

Thats not winning , thats being given . (sorry... :facepalm: I just couldn't resist!) I have to ask Sunshine , I've listened to what you have to say and your pretty SJW , fight the man (big Govt,big Corp,bigBank) kinda politics. So this whole Brexit thing it was big Govt ,big Corp , big Bank that were all for Remain and millenials who say in case of austerity would go out and protest against them , yet in this case are actually protesting for what those same big Govt,big Corp , big Bank want . Dont you find this to be a huge contradiction. You know how reverse psychology works right? Johnson himself even eluded to it numerous times throughout the campaign (even if he and his ilk scare me a little, he is pretty clever and does make me laugh!) Besides, in the long run and on a grander scale, it may not make much difference which way the vote went anyway.. what it will do however, is help those who can, hedge their bets. As for 'saving the world', I just call stuff how I see it, like we all do. I'll freely admit that I also get the wrong end of the stick at times, like we all do. My apologies for trying to interject a little light-hearted humour into this apparent edifice of terror and corruption that awaits us all, but it is important to try keep some perspective, I guess. (??)

Thats not winning , thats being given . (sorry... :facepalm: I just couldn't resist!)

You guys were saying...

No, it grew out of a desire to live in a democracy and in many areas a desire to be paid properly, being able to find a school place for your children, being able to see a doctor, being able to afford somewhere to live and not feeling like a foreigner in your own country. Well I'm glad that's all sorted now... :confused: @JaYmZeE311074 - I am glad to find there are others who can see the strings. Anyone who was on the ground during the referendum will know exactly why people wanted out, it doesn't need to be analysed or second guessed. My point was is that one vote does not simply mean, job done. Look at all the immediate backtracking on everything, if people believed that by leaving the EU it would solve all their problems or mean they never have to deal with it, then they be gravely mistaken me thinks... And as for the points made on the change in the make up of the vote, while I am very critical of the EU, I also am in no doubt that politicians of every stripe in the UK have used the EU to deflect issues and to hide their own incompetencies or inability to change things the way people wanted them to be. There has always been a democracy (if one assumes that democracy actually exists) and their voices shouldn't be hushed, in fact as we have seen, the swing has pushed it pretty much down the middle. So now we have a population, in a country that by its very essence has been in a large part built upon immigration, which now has to deal with the questions and physical realities of fixing a divided nation. This is not a binary choice and requires deep and sensible discussion if it is to actually be in our benefit - having a democratic mandate does not necessarily mean (as we have seen over the previous 30 or so years) that things will go the way one hoped they will. this isn't a divided nation, the only people still harping on about it are millennial snowflakes Perhaps a slight contradiction in terms. It is also an unjust oversimplification - much like most of the referendum itself was. In fact I would like to agree with you that although there are clear splits in demographics and geography when looking at the statistics, the nation isn't necessarily divided yet (which is actually a testament to the fact the EU hasn't had the purely detrimental, imperial like effect so often touted). Neither is division necessarily a negative in a proposed democracy (it is in fact an integral part of it). Whatever the weather it is hard to deny we are at a crossroads of the country's history and I hope we don't make mistakes. I am somewhat confident, but it is important to be aware of these things so as to not become the very things we are supposedly turning away from.

No, it grew out of a desire to live in a democracy and in many areas a desire to be paid properly, being able to find a school place for your children, being able to see a doctor, being able to afford somewhere to live and not feeling like a foreigner in your own country. Well I'm glad that's all sorted now... :confused: @JaYmZeE311074 - I am glad to find there are others who can see the strings. Anyone who was on the ground during the referendum will know exactly why people wanted out, it doesn't need to be analysed or second guessed. My point was is that one vote does not simply mean, job done. Look at all the immediate backtracking on everything, if people believed that by leaving the EU it would solve all their problems or mean they never have to deal with it, then they be gravely mistaken me thinks... And as for the points made on the change in the make up of the vote, while I am very critical of the EU, I also am in no doubt that politicians of every stripe in the UK have used the EU to deflect issues and to hide their own incompetencies or inability to change things the way people wanted them to be. There has always been a democracy (if one assumes that democracy actually exists) and their voices shouldn't be hushed, in fact as we have seen, the swing has pushed it pretty much down the middle. So now we have a population, in a country that by its very essence has been in a large part built upon immigration, which now has to deal with the questions and physical realities of fixing a divided nation. This is not a binary choice and requires deep and sensible discussion if it is to actually be in our benefit - having a democratic mandate does not necessarily mean (as we have seen over the previous 30 or so years) that things will go the way one hoped they will.

No, it grew out of a desire to live in a democracy and in many areas a desire to be paid properly, being able to find a school place for your children, being able to see a doctor, being able to afford somewhere to live and not feeling like a foreigner in your own country. Well I'm glad that's all sorted now... :confused: @JaYmZeE311074 - I am glad to find there are others who can see the strings.