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@CaptainPatch Ulfric would have had six years to get back to Skyrim and retake the Reach, since the WGC was signed in 4E175 and the Markarth Incident was in 4E181. Of course, if you take the Bear of Markarth as fact, then the Markarth Incident happened in 4E176, which still gives Ulfric a year to get back. But I don't take that book as fact. I fail to see how any of this is relevant, because even if the treaty was signed in late 4E175, Ulfric still had five years to get back to Skyrim. @Kimmera The Redguards in the IC would have left Cyrodil to go back to Hammerfell after the Battle of the Red Ring. The Empire wasn't out of troops, they had the equivalent of 2.5 legions left. Even if they wouldn't be as effective grouped in smaller legions, they would still be able to fight. The person who wrote the Great War is an Imperial legate, he is probably biased towards the Empire and TMII. Seriously, if the Empire had exhausted every resources they had in their five provinces, how could one of those provinces go on and fight the AD to a draw? The Empire quit because TMII decided is wasn't worth it for Cyrodil to fight for Skyrim's religion and Hammerfell's territory. I know there are people in Cyrodil who worship Talos, but practically every Nord does. My point is that the Empire was strong, but is getting weaker and collapsing in on itself, so for Skyrim to survive it needs to leave. The Empire is weak now, but it wasn't earlier. And if the Empire is so weak, then how are they supposed to defeat the AD at all? There are no other non-captured stormcloaks there, so who would the "us" be referring to? Galmar not being as good of a strategist as Ulfric is irrelevant to this point. It is also easy to give up territory and religion when you know neither of those will effect you in the slightest.

@Kimmera No objections, other than all the Redguards who were there, and some of the Nords who were there(not just Ulfric and Galmar). The Redguards stopped the AD from advancing, and held them in one place for five years, why can't the Empire do that too? They had less of their territory occupied, more places to draw resources and troops from, but apparently they are about to be destroyed, despite the Redguards fighting the AD to a draw, with only half of a province to draw supplies and troops from. The Empire was already prepared for war, they had been fighting for 4 years, so they didn't need to prepare. Skyrim has just had a war fought across most of its cities (5 out of nine), instead of Cyrodil's 3 out of nine. They also can only resources from themselves, instead of the Empire having three extra provinces to help supply them. Ulfric is strengthening Skyrim's position by separating it from an Empire that can't even prevent drug lords from tearing cities apart: Cheydinhal has errupted into violece and chaos, like so many other cities before it. 27th of Hearthfire, 4E 188. The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers. 27th of Sun's Height, 4E 188. Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs, and it's just a matter of time before the Sanctuary is breached. @CaptainPatch I know there are lots of legates, that is why I was questioning their high rank. But I do see your point, legate is probably meant to command a thousand men, but gameplay restricts that. The word "us" in Galmar's dialogue means that at least one person was with Galmar in the IC, and since he is talking to Rikke she isn't the other person, and since Tullius is on the other side he probably isn't the other person, so Ulfric must have been the other person referred to by the "us". TMII proposed the WGC to the AD. It wasn't like the AD were giving him one last chance to surrender, he was surrendering to the AD. He could have asked for better terms, and if those were rejected, then went with the WGC, but he didn't. Even if the legion was in such bad of a shape that it could not fight because everyone was wounded, the AD wouldn't know that, and TMII could try to negotiate on fairly even ground.

@CaptainPatch The legates in Skyrim command only one fort, and I don't think that fort can hold 1,000 men, even accounting for gameplay doesn't equal lore. If you know that the Great War is at least slightly biased, why do you discount my claims that maybe the Empire could have kept fighting, with your only evidence being the Great War, and multiple other people disagreeing with you(Ulfric and the Redguards). But the US implies that Ulfric was there as well, which is what I was proving with that quote. @Fraquar You have a good point, the Empire didn't need to keep fighting as long as they could get reasonable terms on a peace treaty, but instead they just outright surrendered.

@Kimmera So now Legate Justianus Quintius is always correct about everything, just because he wrote a book? He was only a legate in the war, and like fraquar said, he acknowledges that some of what he writes is opinion and conjecture. Ulfric said that the Empire died the day it surrendered to the AD, so he obviously believes they should have kept fighting, and since he believes they should have kept fighting, he must believe that they could have kept fighting. I never said Ulfric knew anything about Hammerfell, other than they won their war with the AD. The Great War is a history book written by a Imperial legate who might be biased towards the Empire, and who acknowledges that some of what he writes is opinion. @CaptainPatch You assume that Ulfric was in Skyrim when the Empire surrendered, but during the battle for Solitude Galmar says ""You were there with US. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died." So Ulfric must have been there when the Empire surrendered, or Galmar would have said "You were there with ME."

@CaptainPatch We have no idea what Ulfric's rank was, it could have been just a foot soldier or a step under general, but we don't know. If Ulfric looked at the Imperial army's camp, he could make a fair guess about how many people were there. He would probably know how many legions were in the IC, or maybe he revealed a secret entrance to the city. We don't know, and none of this is the AD making him think he did better at fighting him than he really did, it is them trying to make him feel guilty.

@Kimmera How do you know Ulfric didn't know any important information? Even a lower ranking person could have a rough estimate of how many soldiers the legion had with them. @CaptainPatch If Ulfric was locked up in a room, with no way to tell the passage of time, he wouldn't be able to do what you suggest. If he had a window, or the guards always gave him his meals at regular times, then he would be able to keep track of time, but if the guards came at random times and there wasn't a window, then he would have no idea how fast time was passing.

@Kimmera Do you know what rank Ulfric was, or if he talked to other commanders once he arrived back in Skyrim who were generals? Also, where in the Dossier on Ulfric does it say that the Thalmor told Ulfric he had been more effective against them than he really had been? Ulfric could have retired from the army to train in becoming a Jarl after the Great War ended, there is no evidence at all of any positions he may have held. Hammerfell probably didn't have the force to successfully invade the AD, so they just wanted their land back to be able to rebuild. The Empire still had some blades left at the end of the Great War, otherwise their disbandment wouldn't have been a term in the treaty. I don't think all the elves in the army of the AD even know that they are fighting to undo the world, that is probably kept secret by the Thalmor to prevent uprisings from elves who don't want to end the world. There is no evidence that they didn't kill all the civilians that they could. There is no evidence at all. Also, since they plan to wipe out Talos worship, the best bet to do so would be just to kill all men, since you never know if one person is secretly worshiping Talos. If you are wrong, the Empire will collapse under its own weight, and there will be minimal resistance when the AD comes. If I am wrong, the provinces will be all split up, and they will all fall separately. But your plan relies on the Empire recovering, and I have evidence that the Empire is not recovering. The AD threw everything they could into the Battle of the Red Ring, calling reinforcements from as far as Anvil and Kvatch. So I was wrong, it wasn't just their troops in or near the city that were killed, but probably the vast majority of all their troops in Cyrodil, since Lord Naarfiin would have called for all troops to attack the IC in an attempt to prevent himself from being killed. And the troops guarding supply lines back in the AD's territory would need to stay there, or they could have a rebellion in Valenwood on their hands.

@Kimmera Ulfric could still see the condition that the soldiers were in, and while he wouldn't be in a position to make a complete judgement, from his perspective at least, the Empire was able to keep on fighting if it had wanted to. If there were only a few men left alive, and the army was starving, or morale was really low, he would have realized why the Empire made the call to surrender. MAYBE his regiment was the only one that was doing okay and everyone else wasn't, but that is unlikely. Also, do you know what Ulfric's rank was, or are you just making it up based on the militia he commanded during the Markarth Incident? No, I don't think the answers make any sense. If the AD wanted southern Hammerfell badly enough to fight five years to keep it, they wanted it bad enough to not just pull out because their general didn't want to commit any of their supposedly vast number of reserves. Their main army was destroyed, their garrisons in Anvil and Kvatch would still be intact, but now they wouldn't know the Empire's strength, and would likely be demoralized by having their main army killed down to the last mer. The AD has never had the opportunity to engage in genocide of all humans, so you don't know that they need them alive, and it seems more likely that they don't. The Empire didn't need to invade the AD, they just needed to force them out of Cyrodil. The consequences of me being wrong is that the world will end, but the same thing goes for you being wrong. If you are wrong, but the Empire wins, then the Empire will eventually crumble and the AD will step in and take over, facing minimal resistance. They wouldn't have kept all their forces there, but they might have kept the majority at least near the city, meaning they would be wiped out in the Battle of the Red Ring as well.

@Kimmera Cyrodil was no longer able to continue fighting according to TMII, his generals, and most Imperial supporters. According to Ulfric, Galmar, and most Redguards, it was able to continue fighting, but it decided to surrender because TMII and his generals were cowards who would rather throw their provinces under the bus than fight. Ulfric was there, and although he wasn't a general he would have seen what kind of shape the army was in. Why would the AD suddenly stop their advance into Hammerfell if they could have kept advancing? They were still trying to take Hegathe in 4E173, which is after they shifted priorities, so if they stopped moving because they didn't want Hammerfell, why didn't they stop earlier? The AD's army in Cyrodil was worse off than the Empire's army, and if they tried to reinforce it from Hammerfell, then the Redguards could push into Valenwood, forcing the AD to fall back to defend itself. If the AD has all these reserves, then why didn't they just use them to destroy the Empire, man, and Talos worship all at once, instead of waiting for another 20 years? I know they play a long game, but if you have victory in your hands, why would you give it up and let the enemy recover? So you are saying that most Jarls would vote for Ulfric, even though we know that at least 3 of them are against him. @CaptainPatch The AD made two failed campains to expand their territory in Hammerfell, and after the second one they were too weakened to continue advancing. "Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance" You assume that the AD has unlimited fresh forces just waiting to attack, and that the Empire has committed every possible asset they will ever get, and won't be able to get any reinforcements from anywhere until they surrender. Again, why wouldn't the AD just wipe out the Empire if they could just "Pull together a fresh force from surrounding garrisons + reserves would more than likely be enough to make the Empire totally collapse." I know they play a long game, but the point of the game is to destroy the Empire, and if it was that easy they would have just done it. If the troops who were left behind were Imperials, why would they have felt such an urge to defend Hammerfell at the expense of Cyrodil, and why would they have stayed in Hammerfell after it declared independence from the Empire? The fact that the AD did not reinforce their position in Hammerfell is not a fact at all, but a speculation you have made to help prove your point. What if the AD, realizing that Hammerfell was a threat to them, threw everything they could afford to throw at Hammerfell, and were defeated? That is just as likely as the scenario you have outlined. Where is it given that Tamriel is about the size of Australia? No, it means there will be a vote to see if the old High King will be impeached or not. Or maybe the AD never tried again because they were barely holding onto what they had, and couldn't afford to attack because they didn't have enough men. High Rock probably has many aspiring heroes who know how to fight, and it is easier to get recruits to the front when you don't have to move them across an undefined distance of land to get them into the battle. Also, what if the AD had thrown in all their reserves when they took the Imperial City, expecting it to be the battle that ended the war? Sure, they would have left themselves undefended, but it would have won them the war if TMII hadn't fled the city. So maybe the AD also has no reserves. The Crowns and Forbears in Hammerfell are now united after Hegathe, and Hammerfell isn't High Rock, it would split into two factions, not many city-states. If the AD wanted southern Hammerfell, why didn't they take it? Instead they separated Hammerfell from the Empire, which is so weakened the legion can't even keep the peace in their capitol province, allowing it to recover on its own.

@Kimmera The Thalmor couldn't defeat Hammerfell, how could they defeat Hammerfell and Cyrodil together? I know the Empire was in bad shape, but they were in better shape than Hammerfell at the end of the war, and Hammerfell had 4 of its cities sacked. Although TMII and some of his generals felt the Empire could not continue, Ulfric was there the day the Empire signed the WGC and didn't agree with their assessment, and neither did the Redguards. TMII made his call, and weather it was correct or not is hard to tell with the evidence we have. The Empire had summoned all the help that would come from Hammerfell, and while that would have left them vulnerable to an AD counterattack, the AD were likely just as weakened as the Empire. If the AD committed less to Cyrodil because they thought the Empire was still in Hammerfell, wouldn't they have instead committed those troops to Hammerfell? @CaptianPatch McClellan also was too hesitant too commit his troops, leaving many of his men in reserve during decisive points in battles. The AD didn't need to commit all of their reserves, but if they had any after the Battle of the Red Ring, Hammerfell would have been a place that needed them, because without them the AD could not advance. So unless the AD didn't want the rest of Hammerfell, for whatever reason, it makes no sense for them to stop advancing unless they had no choice. The AD lost one battle, but it was a major battle that completely wiped out their main army, which would have destroyed morale for them and raised morale for the Empire, as well as allowing the Empire time to regroup while the AD got together their army for a second assault. He never mentions the race of any of the soldiers in Hammerfell, so we don't know for sure, but I think it is likely that most of the ones who stayed behind would be redguards, because they would feel more loyalty to Hammerfell than to Cyrodil. While soldiers will be proud of their time in the legion, they are not still legionnaires if they decide to rebel against the Empire. Once again, if the only reason the AD attacked Hammerfell was to weaken Cyrodil, why didn't they leave after the Empire surrendered, instead choosing to endure five years of bloody fighting before they left? The 13 states were also much smaller than Hammerfell, at least I think they are, still haven't found an accurate scale of Tamriel yet. And the AD wanted to keep Hammerfell, if they didn't why was it a term in the treaty? They probably changed their minds right before they left, not a few years before. "...new moot and a new vote for High King." Not a vote for a new High King, but a new vote for High King. Their is nothing that says the current High King can't win this moot. We know the AD wanted to take Hegathe, I find it more likely that they couldn't take it rather than they wouldn't take it, but since that is all speculation I can't prove it. The AD could train more troops, but so could the Empire, and the Empire does have more territories to draw troops from. Also, while farmers wouldn't be as good at fighting as trained soldiers, some of them would already be good archers, while others would be trained with swords to protect themselves from bandits and creatures. Why would the AD waste their time burning land that they still planned on ruling, especially when they were busy besieging Hegathe? And why wouldn't the AD finish the Empire now when they are weak, rather than letting them recover to fight again?

@NerevarII I had this same discussion about Ulfric a few pages back with CaptainPatch and Kimmera, and neither of them proved that he was racist, if you have any proof then just copy/paste it here. I not found any quotes from Ulfric that are racist. However, since you are making me find all the quotes, here are a few from him: We're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us! Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion. And for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne. We're fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind with the people's suffering. We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one else but us." "I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses; no murder was committed. True, he didn't stand a chance against me, but that was precisely the point. He was a puppet king of the Empire, not a High King of Skyrim. His father before him, perhaps, but not Toryyg. He was too privileged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than ruling his country. "My father, the Great Bear of Eastmarch, died during my imprisonment after the Markarth incident. I, his only son, forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter I had smuggled out of prison. Such is the love of Titus Mede for his subjects. When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm and was... greeted by a city in mourning. And one with my own grief, and anger. Clamoring in angry voices. Calling out for justice, for war. They sat me on the throne. The throne of Ysgramor, the throne of my father. I only hope I can prove worthy of that honor." Jorleif: "Sir, there continues to be unrest in the Gray Quarter." Ulfric: "Blasted dark elves. I don't suppose you could tell them that I presently have larger concerns? Such as all of Skyrim?" Jorleif: "They don't seem to be very sympathetic to our cause, sir." Ulfric: "Let me know if you hear anything more substantial." Jorleif: "Of course, my lord." Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?" Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors." Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire." Galmar: "Those milk-drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us." Ulfric: "Regardless, it appears Skyrim must stand alone, again." @Kimmera The AD wouldn't toss in everything, but sometimes it makes more sense to charge at your opponent with most of your forces, unless you want to end up like General George McClellan. Building new mines would take time, as would everything else, but Hammerfell has time. Hammerfell has everything in its northern cities, and while they won't have much after nine years of war, they might still have some money. The Empire committed everything they could, won a huge battle killing the entire main army of the AD, still had 2 and a half legions left, and would have been in a position to force the AD out of Cyrodil for good, and then they surrendered. Either way Balgruuf will be the tiebreaker, but one way involves a war and the other involves a debate. Ulfric might have been hoping that Torygg would refuse, because that way he could convince the other Jarls to join them, not take their cities by force. The Empire is not necessarily incompetent, but neither are the redguards, nords, or bretons. Decianus left troops (probably redguard ones) behind in Hammerfell, who fought off the AD without any Imperial aid. Just because they were once Imperial doesn't mean they are always Imperial, otherwise Ulfric is an Imperial. @CaptainPatch If the AD had the troops, they would have retaken Hegathe after the Empire surrendered. They obviously wanted it, and if they were going to be fighting anyway, they would have tried to take it. Yes, it takes time to recover from a war, but it is not impossible. The American revolution lasted seven years, and raged all across America, but 31 years later America had recovered enough to fight Britain again. While the Americans did have more technology, they also had a greater percentage of their land fought in. How do you know Torygg would be ineligible in the next moot? You are making an interpretation of Sybille's dialog that is not necessarily correct. Well duh, but more ways to surprise attack the enemy is better than less ways. The troops in Hammerfell stopped the AD in their tracks, and eventually forced them to withdraw. Also, you cite the USSR in WWII as a reason the AD would win, but since they didn't have another army except for the one in Hammerfell, just some reserves that were needed to stop rebellion and keep order, I don't see the correlation. The USSR had another army, but the AD doesn't. They could try to split the one in Hammerfell in half, and pull in their reserves, but if their reserves couldn't defeat Hammerfell, how coul they defeat Hammerfell plus Cyrodil? The Empire didn't need to invade the AD, they just needed to force them out of Cyrodil. Yes, besieged and under siege are the same thing, but if it was besieged in december 4E172, and liberated in January 4E173, it would have only been under siege for a month. I said all the forests not west of Hegathe could be destroyed, including the ones right around it, but anything a substantial distance west of it would be safe.

@CaptainPatch So, all armies in Tamriel must function the same way armies do today, there is no chance that the AD has different reserve structure than normal? And since the AD wanted to take Hegathe, why wouldn't they have committed there reserves to take it, if they had as many as you claim. They didn't need a break in the Redguard line if they had enough troops just to plow through it. People could just build new mines, it would take a while, but not 21 years. If Torygg was a better leader than Ulfric, he would have just refused the challenge and won the moot. More is better than less, that is exactly what I was saying. Since they pulled all their troops from Hammerfell to the IC, I think the Empire did commit all the forces they possibly could. If you are talking about the AD, then they probably had some troops left, but the main army was completely wiped out so those would be demoralized and outnumbered. Tamriel's climate doesn't exactly make sense. Skaven had warning before it was attacked, so I don't think the AD would have got much from it. Also, three cities probably wouldn't have enough money to pay for a 9 year war. There East Empire Company is trading with Windhelm WHILE it is rebelling against the Empire, so why couldn't they trade with Hammerfell during the last 5 years of the Great War? Ulfric would call for a moot to elect a new High King, and the moot could listen to him or refuse him. Also, if Torygg is such a good leader, he would simply refuse the challenge and worry more about the fate of Skyrim than some nords calling him a coward from Windhelm. Also, most people in Solitude regard the challenge as illegal, so he could just say that they are against the law. It was under siege for a maximum of a year, but it could have only been besieged for a month. And if the AD just focused on the city, while they might have burned the trees around it(or the Redguards might have burned them so the AD wouldn't have any cover), anything west of it would be untouched. @Kimmera If the Redguards had help from High Rock, they could have recovered a lot quicker. Even if they didn't get help, they have had 21 years to rebuild, and since no one is restarting the Great War for a while, they still do have time to rebuild more. The war would have hurt them, but they have had time to recover. The troops who won the Battle of the Red Ring were under Imperial command, but it is likely they were born and trained in Skyrim, before leaving to fight for the Empire. Same with the Redguards. The fact that the Redguards won without Imperial leaders proves that the Empire is not necessary to defeat the AD.

@Kimmera They held them back, but they didn't take Hegathe, which we know they wanted, or advance. They just stalled for five years, and then pulled out, allowing Hammerfell to recover and making all their fighting worthless(three cities wouldn't have enough treasure to offset the money spent on funding a massive invasion). What did Miraak do to High Rock, wasn't his influence restricted to Solsthiem? Also, High Rock isn't cold, unlike Canada, and there are three cities in it that are very close to Hammerfell, so I don't see any reason why they couldn't trade, and why would the Empire force High Rock to not help Hammerfell, since Hammerfell is fighting the AD, which is also their enemy? If Torygg had refused the challenge Ulfric would have called for a moot, or that is what Sybille thinks anyway, and she has more insight on this than us. "By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King. If Torygg was such a good king, then he would have let Ulfric call a moot, and since he was a good king, the Jarls would have voted him to stay king. Just because Ulfric and some people would call Torygg a coward wouldn't necessarily force the Jarls to vote Torygg out of office. Actually, Elisif shouldn't count, so it is 3 to four Jarls. I assume that Ulfric winning is bad for the Thalmor because they quite explicitly say that in their Dossier:"A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." Ulfric may have helped them by starting the war, but he messed up their plans if he won it. Just because the third empire has ruled for hundreds of years does not mean that they are good, or that it is best to stay with them. There is a difference between a temper tantrum and standing up against someone who is forcing you to worship your god in secret. @CaptainPatch You are assuming Hegathe was besieged for a year, but for all we know they were besieged for a week. There is nothing in the 'Great War' book that backs that claim.

@Kimmera They wouldn't need to commit everything, just enough to hold back the Reguards. If they had a large reserve force like you claim, then they would have been able to do that. The fact that they didn't is why I think they left few forces behind, hoping to shock the Empire into surrendering. High Rock could be sympathetic to Hammerfell, and since Hegathe held out the trees west of it would be fine, and Northern Hammerfell is not desert either so it might have trees. Even if they do have to buy wood from High Rock, it doesn't cost a fortune to build a settlement. It would take a lot longer if they had to buy the wood, sure, but 21 years is plenty of time. It proves the king was a poor leader because he accepted the challenge. If he was a good king he would have refused the challenge, and when Ulfric called for a moot, he would have won it because he was such a good king. The Thalmor Dossier never says that they told Ulfric he was a great leader, and if he isn't a great leader, then how did he manage to get half of Skyrim behind him? You don't just convince half a country to rebel without being a good leader. They weren't trying to force the Empire to surrender until just before the Battle of the Red Ring, before that they were just advancing into the Empire, taking over all the cities they came across. Ulfric only helps the Thalmor if he doesn't win, if he loses quickly then he still helps them by having the rebellion kill people, if it is a stalemate then he helps them by making the rebellion kill a lot of people, but if he wins quickly then he breaks their plans.

@Kimmera Of course they wouldn't have used all of them, but if they had a huge number of reserves surely some of them would have been put into battle, and since they been recently stopped in Hammerfell, wouldn't they have sent them there to make sure their armies could keep moving forwards? Wooden building wouldn't take long to build, and since the AD controlled less than half of Hammerfell they couldn't have destroyed all the trees, even if they were trying. Yes, sandstone buildings would take longer to replace, but you don't need sandstone to build a farm, port or mine, and once those are built the Redguards won't need to import as many materials to rebuild the cities. I don't think all of the mines in Hammerfell are dry, but I can't prove that. @CaptainPatch "I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is a High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?" He killed Torygg to prove that Skyrim was growing weak under the rule of the Empire. If you want to know the geography of Hammerfell, TESA Redguard might help, but I haven't played it so I don't know either. I know it is possible to invade the same place twice and be successful, having a larger border for the enemy to defend would make it easier. Possibly. That is speculation. They still would have attacked the IC with most of their troops, since they would have thought TMII was going to make a last stand there. Their reserves probably would have stayed in reserve, but the main army was in the IC. "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all." Why would they try to end the war with a conditional surrender if they could just waltz right in and kill everyone? I think Hammerfell would be very angry at the AD for trashing their province, and would take any chance they could to get allies to help them fight the AD. They are Imperial, but a lot of them are now either in Hammerfell being independent or in Skyrim being rebels.

@Kimmera Why didn't the AD use them in Cyrodil to force the Empire into surrendering earlier, or use them to actually win in Hammerfell. They weren't completely defeated, but they for sure did not win. They kept what they needed for internal policing, if they withdrew those forces then Valenwood might rebel again. Four out of nine cities sacked is different than for out of five, and even if they were completely destroyed it wouldn't take too long to rebuild, since a hurricane does a lot more damage than an army. Also, New Orleans is much larger and has much more stuff to rebuild than cities in the medieval era. Although it might have taken a while to recover, 21 years is enough time to rebuild farms, mines and ports, so even if their cities don't have as many buildings as they used too, they might have recovered enough to be able to fight another war with the AD, assuming they are not alone. Of course, it is possible that Hammerfell is in a state of poverty and hasn't rebuilt at all, but we don't know.

@Kimmera If the AD had a huge amount of reserves just waiting to destroy everyone, then why didn't they use them in Hammerfell or in Cyrodil? The only reason they attacked the IC was to get the Empire to surrender because they realized that the Empire would beat them if the war went on for a long time. Daedra worship has a very high chance of getting innocents killed, there is a reason that all the shrines are in the wilderness. It is simply that Daedra and their worshipers are likely to kill you. Galmar is saying Ulfric should challenge all of the Jarls to duels instead of taking their cities by force, not seeing how that is genocide. He simply doesn't want to get all of his soldiers killed in battle. Skyrim wouldn't take on the AD alone, they would ally with Hammerfell and possibly High Rock to fight them. Although the troops who won the Battle of the Red Ring did report to TMII, they were not all Imperials and neither were all of their generals. They were simply serving in the Imperial legion. I could say you overestimate the AD's troops and weapons and supply, we know little of Hammerfell other than 4 of it's cities were sacked, and we know little of the AD other than they lost their entire main army in Cyrodil and eventually pulled out of Hammerfell. Neither of those are confirmed by evidence, so we are just speculating.

@Kimmera I said all the AD troops in Cyrodil were dead, and even if they had left some behind to hold Anvil and Kvatch, they would have been small forces, since the main army was at the IC. Ulfric didn't kill Torygg because he wasn't a "true nord", he killed him because he was a bad leader who didn't care about freedom of religion. @CaptianPatch The UESP page on Hammerfell says "Hammerfell is a barren and rocky place, the vast Alik'r desert taking up most of it, with fertile grassland only on the coasts.", so I think it is fertile, but since I haven't played Redguard I really don't know for sure. And while the AD did surprise the Empire in the Great War, it will be hard for them to do it twice, but having a longer border would help. The Redguards were fighting the AD the whole time they were in Hammerfell, so AD soldiers were dying to keep possesion of the land they had. I don't think that they would have fought for five years to occupy Hammerfell if they didn't want to control it. @NerevarII I don't have to prove that Ulfric is innocent, you have to prove he is guilty. You can't do that without quotes, so why don't you get some?

@CaptainPatch Because southern Hammerfell is fertile, and if they had taken it quickly then it wouldn't be destroyed by war, since the fighting would have been over in a few days. The AD might have destroyed all they could before they pulled out, but I find it unlikely that they would spend five years destroying it, the cost of lives would offset the benefits of destroying every last harbor they could find. You are making a lot of assumptions about the state of Hammerfell that we have no facts on, if the AD took it quickly it would be in good condition unless they decided to burn it. Hammerfell would also provide a good place for them to attack Cyrodil from, as well as resources. @NerevarII Please go get some quotes from uesp before you come back, it will take like thirty seconds. If you are just going to come here and not bring anything to the discussion, then why don't you just leave?

@Kimmera They were outnumbered at the Battle of the Red Ring, but after it they were not, because all the Almeri troops in Cyrodil were dead. Hammerfell would have accepted because they would be smart enough not to invade three provinces at once without any help. Torygg was challenged because he allowed Talos worship to be outlawed, not because he had diplomatic ties with other races. Ulfric sends envoys to High Rock to ask for help, please explain why he does this if he is so racist. Regions shouldn't be run racially, but since ALL of them are, you can't specifically blame Ulfric. Why should he and the nords have to be completely accepting of other races if no one else has to? You are holding him to a much higher standard than you are holding the Empire to. Tullius has several racist quotes I can pull up for you if you want, and how many non-Imperial Emperors have there been? None. @NerevarII I have never played a game as a nord, and almost always joined the Stormcloaks, and I have never found any evidence that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are any more racist than Tullius and the Imperials.

@CaptainPatch At the end of those five years, the Redguards had hurt the AD so much that they couldn't/wouldn't stay in Hammerfell anymore. I mean, when you fight to defend your homeland, if at the end of the day you have your homeland in your possession, then you won. The Thalmor had been trying to force TMII to surrender, they didn't think they would be able to take Cyrodil completely so they had decided to take the IC and get the Empire to surrender. So they might have been destroying everything they went past because they didn't want Cyrodil to be able to recover as easily. I said that they captured for cities in Hammerfell, and three in Cyrodil. @NerevarII I know lots of nords are racist, but until you can prove that Ulfric or Galmar are actively being racist then you aren't going to convince me of anything. Galmar doesn't say anything racist that I can remember, except Skyrim for the Nords, but that just means that the nords should rule their own province.

@CaptainPatch The document you found is not official, it is a piece of apocrypha submitted to r/teslore by u/ Blackfyre87 ten months ago. Here is the link. You might want to find the author of something before you go around thinking it is a fact, or at least search it on r/teslore to make sure it is official and not apocrypha. You don't know how Hammerfell is doing right now, or anything about the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai, but you seem to know that Hammerfell is utterly destroyed. However, even though we have evidence that the Empire is actually in chaos (see Cicero's Journals), you seem to think they are just fine, even though they also suffered from the AD taking over half their province. Although they may not have occupied Cyrodil for five years, it doesn't take long to salt the fields, burn buildings, and kill everyone in a city. Sure, southern Hammerfell would be in worse shape than Cyrodil, but we know that three of Cyrodil's cities fell to the AD, so you can't say Hammerfell is dying without applying the same logic to Cyrodil.

@CaptainPatch We do not know if the AD left because they thought Hammerfell was a waste of time since it wasn't part of the Empire, or because they were about to be defeated and signed a peace treaty rather than expose there weakness. That is really the point of this argument, and there is no proof either way. And you have no proof that Hammerfell is bankrupt and collapsing into civil war, since we haven't heard from it. It has the advantage of not being forced to pay a tribute to the AD, and only 4 cities were taken, which is enough to damage their economy, but not beyond recovery, especially if the AD intended to keep that part of Hammerfell until the last bit of the war, because then they wouldn't have had nearly as much time to destroy cities, harbors, and farms. @NerevarII Please prove to me that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are racist, and that Tullius and the Imperials aren't. And provide more evidence than a few Dunmer complaining that some nords don't like them, because "some nords" are not necessarily the Stormcloaks, and will act the same no matter who is in charge.

@CaptainPatch I think the reason the forts are filled with bandits is simply so the player can clear them out; once they are cleared soldiers will take the place of the bandits. Also, you say all the ships in Skyrim are modeled after viking longships, but that could just be because the nords are modeled after vikings, so it makes sense that their ships would be too. This does not mean that all the ships will be modeled after longships, especially the ones made by other cultures. To achieve surprise when attacking Hammerfell I would march quickly and take all the cities in my path before they could get ready. If I had my armies wait in the desert(if they waited in the not desert, they would have to be on or near the coast, where someone could see them), they would be hot, and tired when I needed them ready to attack. If they stayed on the coast and moved as quickly as possible, they could keep pace with any messengers and take cities before they were prepared. Also, the army waiting outside the first city would be waiting there a while, which would run a risk of being spotted. The Redguards signed a treaty that got the AD to leave them alone so that they could recover. As far as we know, there were no negative terms in the treaty for Hammerfell.

@CaptainPatch You keep talking about how easy it is for an army to move undetected, but if cities in Hammerfell are like the ones in Skyrim they are closer to castles than to cities, and they would have garrisoned forts nearby to prevent an army sneaking up on them. This wouldn't be a problem if the AD just attacked the city as soon as their armies arrived, but it would make it hard for them to camp near a city while the division attacking Gilane marched there. it would be easier for them to keep their army together and rely on taking the city quickly and moving on to the next one before the Redguards could set up a defense than to try to spread their forces across Hammerfell. And a army on the ground is easy to identify as such, especially in a desert where they would kick up a large cloud of dust. I did some research and I found this subreddit, and no one there seemed to agree on how big Skyrim was, so I assume it is the same way with the rest of Tamriel. The AD did lose the war, if they had been winning they would have signed a treaty that got them something, instead of just letting them leave peacefully.