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@Kimmera Are you sure there are no telescopes, and do we know how large hammerfell is in real-life units? I have been trying to guess distances from looking at the map, but I haven't seen one with actual distances on it? I don't believe that the AD would spend five years fighting for a province that was useless to them except as a way to weaken the Empire once the Empire signed the WGC, but I guess we are done until someone else comes along to restart this.

@CaptainPatch I know Hammerfell was caught by suprise, but I think if the AD had split themselves into three separate groups and also the separate navies, then it would have been nearly impossible for one of the armies to sneak around to Gilane without being noticed. The army would be only a third of the size of their whole army, not counting the ones on ships, so it would not be enough to take the city unless it had not been spotted, which is unlikely, since it would have had to treck all the way across Hammerfell without being noticed. Their is a difference between what Japan did at Pearl Harbor and launching three different full scale invasions miles into enemy territory without being spotted until one of your armies has walked hundreds of miles to their destination. They could take Rihad and Taneth quickly, but Gilane is too far west. Gilane is located near a peninsula that could easily see any invading ships, and the channel between the peninsula and mainland near Gilane does not look very wide. Also, since the AD is apparently splitting their navy into many groups, the Redguards would only encounter a sixth of their fleet at a time.(The other half would be in Cyrodil.) I did not say they wouldn't be able to go fast to run down an enemy ship over a short distance, I said that with three different fleets one of them is likely to either be becalmed or caught in a storm, both of which would throw off their estimated time of arrival by at least a few days. And even if the AD did manage to pull off such a feat, they were still defeated over a course of five years until they decided to pull out. But you still haven't given me a good reason as to why they stayed those five years if they were just going to leave.

@Kimmera It is pretty hard to sneak an entire army across a hostile border, no matter how many scouts you have. I know the ships have oars, but you can't row nearly as fast as you can sail, and the crew will get tired so you can't do it all day every day either. Look at a map of Hammerfell. Any ships approaching Taneth would be spotted well before they arrived, because they would have to get to close to land before they were near the city. The same goes for Gilane.

@CaptainPatch There is a difference between a multi-pronged assault and an attack that relies on six different armies sucsessfully sneaking up to three different hostile cities in the middle of a hostile country, with three of these forces on sailboats, that rely on wind direction and speed to move, all being in position, not spotted, and ready to attack on the same day. That is never going to work, they would be lucky if half of their elements were in position, hidden, and ready on the day of the attack. If you are going to lecture me on the logistics of shipping supplies across a province, you should realize the difficulty of shipping six different armies into a hostile province without any of them being delayed or spotted. The Redguards were caught off guard by the AD attack, possibly because of the rivalry between the Crowns and Forbears, but I think you are greatly exaggerating their dislike of each other. At worst, they would have ignored each other and tried to fight the AD separately. @Kimmera What has TMII and the Empire done that is so great that Skyrim should let them take away their freedom of religion without complaining. Okay, I did exaggerate her racism. But she does use a lot of the racist slang instead of the race's actual names.

Only a small portion of the invading army used ships, most of it marched in on land. And since the AD couldn't have sailed to three different ports in three different groups and arrived simultaneously due to lack of communications and unpredictable winds, it is more likely that they attacked each city one after the other, not at the same time. And while the captain I mentioned isn't racist to elves or bretons, she is racist to most races.

@Kimmera There may not be enough mudcrabs to supply everyone, but the Emperor could certainly get enough potions of cure disease to live forever. I never said everyone could, but kings and emperors generally have a lot of money and resources, so I think they would be able to afford buying one mudcrab a day. Ulfric believes that if he doesn't separate from the Empire and build up Skyrim to resist the AD, they will take over the world. He may not no of their plans to undo it, but he knows they will take it over. He thinks he is saving the world, and I agree with him, since he is only considered an asset as long as he eventually loses the war, or it ends so far in the future both Skyrim and Cyrodil are devastated. Yes, here they are: Argonian "Next, the lizard!" Breton "Next, the Breton!" Dark Elf "Next, the dark elf!" High Elf "Next, the high elf!" Imperial "Next, the renegade from Cyrodiil!" Khajiit "Next, the cat!" Nord "Next, the Nord in the rags!" Orc "Next, the Orc!" Redguard "Next, the Redguard!" Wood Elf "Next, the wood elf!"

@Kimmera Mudcrabs, skeevers and hawks are all common, and since you could order them from alchemist around the province, I think a rich man could afford a potion a day. Especially an Emperor. Ulfric respects Nord traditions when they don't endanger the fate of the world. They should be followed, but if following them will literally cause the world to never have existed, then there can be exceptions. @CaptainPatch Hammerfell was attacked and the port cities fell before the Redguards could regroup and mount a defense, but it takes a lot more time to organize an army than it does to tell some ships to sail away. You assume the AD can have three armies located throughout southern Hammerfell, and no one will notice they are there until they attack. It is far more likely they just moved from city to city very quickly, and the Redguards could not get ahead of them until Hegathe. Hadvar's captain at Helgen is not Rikke, it is an Imperial simply named "Imperial Captain", who dies at Helgen. She uses a racial slur for every race possible.

Okay, I agree with that first statement 100%. The AD couldn't travel miles along the coast of Hammerfell, conquering cities as it went, with no one noticing. They could have taken Rihad and Janeth by suprise, but I think someone would have noticed before they got to Gilane. How would the AD attack four separate cities, hundreds of miles apart, at the same time, with no one noticing? The Great War does not say that the AD attacked the cities simultaneously, in fact, it says they took the southern coastline. It would be nearly impossible for them to march across Hammerfell with none of the guards in the cities they surrounded noticing. The Dunmer don't pay any rent on their homes, they were given them for free. "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

@Kimmera They had stopped the AD, and the AD decided Hammerfell wasn't going to fall and they couldn't lose that many troops, so they withdrew. But if they thought Hammerfell was worthless except as a distraction to the Empire, then why did they stay there for five years? Unless someone is dying of 50 diseases simultaneously, then they could just drink a potion a day and survive. Okay, lots of Nords are racist, but until you prove that Ulfric is actively being racist then I am done with this argument, we have just talked in circles for weeks. And not just racist, but more racist then Tullius and the Empire.

They stayed in Hammerfell 5 years after it became useless to the Empire, so that argument doesn't make sense. Hammerfell chose not to accept the treaty, so they were kicked out of the Empire. They could have stayed in it, but they didn't want to lose half their province. It takes time to march an army halfway across a province, and you can see them coming. It doesn't take nearly as much time to launch a fleet of planes from a hidden carrier. Also, the Redguards couldn't invade Valenwood and the Summerset Isles without support from at least one other country, which they didn't have. It would be suicide for them to invade three countries at once without any support. If the Bretons are divided into all their little city states, it wouldn't be hard to get trade going between them and Hammerfell. If the Empire has got them unified and is demanding that they ship resources to Cyrodil, then it would be harder to set up trade. But we don't know what is happening in High Rock. Yes, because all Imperials can just calm down everyone near them for a minute, and nords can make everyone near them run away, argonians can regenerate health really quickly, Redguards can do the same with stamina, dark elves can set everyone near them on fire, etc. That makes no sense. The AD didn't capture or besiege all of the ports, they could have moved them there, or to High Rock. Humans never live to be hundreds of years old, no matter how many potions of cure disease they drink, so I think that there is another explanation for the elves longevity. There is no mention of people driving Dunmer out of Windhelm, and the Dunmer aren't having to cram 10 people in one house, so I think it is because all the Dunmer were given a free house when they moved to Skyrim, while the nords have to earn there houses, or they don't get them. And almost all of the Dunmer who complain about the Nords treating them happen to be very racist themselves.

Hammerfell started the war as a part of the Empire, and then in the middle they declared independence and defeated the AD. I never said Hammerfell was independent before the war. Where is it said that elves have better night vision? And I always assumed the racial bonuses like disease resistance were a game mechanic. Their slower reproduction would be offset by their longer lifespan during most times, but it would make them take longer to recover from a war. So they endured five years of bloody fighting over Hammerfell, and then just left because they got bored and left? It doesn't take five years to destroy all the cities and harbors, and it takes much more than five years to destroy all possible harbors. The AD realized they wouldn't take Hammerfell, and probably would lose eventually, so they decided to withdraw. They didn't withdraw because they didn't want Hammerfell, they withdrew because they couldn't take Hammerfell. You really don't think the Redguards could have taken the ships out of the cities before they were besieged? The four cities the AD sacked are the four closest to Cyrodil, so if Hammerfell has any money left it would be possible for them to buy resources from Cyrodil. And High Rock might be sympathetic to Hammerfell and give them some resources, but that is an assumption because we have no idea what is happening in High Rock. The reason we here so little about Hammerfell is the same as the reason we hear so little about Cyrodil, or High Rock, or all the other places. It is simply because they are far away. If elves live ten times longer than humans and reproduce at the same rate, you realize elves would outnumber humans by a huge amount after a few centuries. Yes, a lot of the nords in Windhelm are racist, but Ulfric isn't one of them. I mean, there are two homeless nords in Windhelm, and no homeless Dunmer, does that tell you anything?

@Kimmera At the beginning of the war, the AD invaded Hammerfell, and was trying to take it over. At the end, they were completely driven out. Not sure how this works out as a victory for the AD, but sure, they won. And if it is too hard to get wood down to Southern Hammerfell, then why isn't it too hard for the AD to ship goods from Hammerfell to Summerset? You can ship lumber pretty cheaply across half a province if you have boats, which the Redguards do. We know men and elves are about equal because if they weren't, someone or something would have told us that. If elves live longer and reproduce slower than humans, both of them could have about the same number of people. The longer lifespan would offset having less children. The AD did not withdraw, they were forced out, or at least didn't have the troops left for it to be reasonable to keep trying to hold Hammerfell. If they were going to withdraw, they probably would have done it years earlier and saved everyone the trouble of fighting over land they didn't want. So, one Dunmer thinks the Nords are racist, and one thinks they aren't, and one other elf thinks they aren't.

Supposing the AD did stick around in Hammerfell just to drop big rocks in the ocean or mine up all the mines, they could not feasibly have destroyed every possible harbor along the coast or mined out all the ore in just five years. The Redguards might have to build new ports and mines, but they would. Even if there was not enough wood in Hammerfell to build them, they could just trade with Cyrodil to get it. They have had 21 years to do rebuild so far, but we have no idea how well its going. It could already be done, or they could be falling apart like Cyrodil. As far as we know, men and elves are pretty much equally matched at fighting. There have been no sources to contradict this, and it makes logical sense too. Sure, mages are powerful, but their spells are less effective than arrows, and even the master spells, which only a few master wizards would know, are not any better than a catapult. The war in Hammerfell never seemed to really stop, it just happened that the AD was put on the defensive right before the Battle of the Red Ring. They had stopped advancing without completing their objective, and were about to be pushed back. Then the Empire surrendered, and the Redguards pushed back the whole AD by themselves. Beyln Hlaalu doesn't complain about the ground being frozen, so maybe he has found a way to get crops to grow anyway or maybe he just has a better plot of land. He does not seem to "mind his place like a 'good' little dunmer", instead, he has a nord employee who has to work all day for him. There is no mention of the Scrolls at all, so we have no idea what happened to them. They could have been captured, hidden, taken from the city when it looked like the AD might capture it, taken from the city when the Emperor fled the city, or any number of other things. We have no idea what really happened though, so all this is pointless.

@Kimmera I meant to say move the docks, not move the city. Even if the harbor was destroyed beyond use, they could just build a new one that was still close to the city. The AD won the Great War, which ended when the Emperor signed the White-Gold Concordant. Then they fought against just Hammerfell, and Hammerfell won. Again, there was a war against the Empire, and immediately after that there was a war against Hammerfell. Beyln Hlaalu lives in the Grey Quarter, owns a farm outside the city, and he thinks the Dunmer are to blame for being so poor. Belyn does live in the city, though, he just also owns a farm outside it, so he does know how the Dunmer live, and probably had to work his way up from being poor like the rest of them. Do you see the word scolls anywhere in that quote? The Tower was looted, yes, but what if the scrolls were moved, hidden, or recaptured?

@CaptainPatch I know destroying the ports and cities in Hammerfell would help the AD, but it doesn't take five years to do that. Anyway, after 20 years Hammerfell would have been able to rebuild, so it would have all been for nothing. The Redguards have had decades, and they could have just moved the city to another location that was not destroyed. Even with five years, the AD couldn't have destroyed the whole coastline. The AD did defeat the Cyrodil, but they didn't defeat Hammerfell. Yes, some goods would be profitable, but does it take five years to ransack a city and throw everything that is profitable on a boat? No. Elves are not necessarily better fighters than men. And while your mage is readying his frost spell, which the nord is resistant to anyway, the nord is smashing him with his shield, and then proceeding to lop his head off. And there is a in-game book that details strategies for fighting mages, I just can't remember what it is called. There is no record of the scrolls at all, nothing about the being captured, saved, or hidden. There is nothing at all. And are you ever going to reply to my quotes from Beyln Hlaalu? If Ulfric just lets Nurelion have an alchemy shop because he wants an alchemy shop, that makes sense, but why does he let Beyln own a farm?

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch You said the AD purposely lost in Hammerfell, and I asked you why they wouldn't simply leave immediately, or at least within a year, if they never planned on winning. It is a bad idea to commit thousands of soldiers to an objective you don't actually want. They would have lost thousands of mer defending land that, according to you, they didn't even want. They didn't need five years to burn all the cities they had to the ground, if they just wanted to cripple Hammerfell they could have done it in months. And the long trip to the Summerset Isles would probably make it worthless to transport most goods, because it would cost so much to ship them. I said they lost the war in Hammerfell, which they did. I did not say that they lost the Great War. They could have moved them out before the battle, or the Emperor could have ordered some soldiers to carry them as they fled the city, or Lord Naarfiin might have wanted to keep them all in the city where he could study them. Elves would have longer to train, but since they spend most of their time learning magic, they can still be defeated by a nord with an axe and a shield. Especially if he is trained to block magic with his shield. Where is it said that all cities need alchemy shops? I mean, I know potions are useful but wouldn't it be possible to buy them from another alchemist and take them to Windhelm? And neither of you have responded to any of the dialoge from Belyn Hlaalu.

@Kimmera So what was the AD doing in Hammerfell for those five years? If they were going to retreat, why didn't they retreat before they lost hundreds, if not thousands, of mer fighting in the desert. Did they just leave the army that was already in Hammerfell to be destroyed? It makes no sense to think that the AD fought for five years in Hammerfell with no intention of actually winning. The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai led to the the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. It was not a surrender like the WGC, it was a peace treaty that probably just said the AD and Hammerfell wouldn't invade each other. Their is no evidence that the Thalmor have any presence in Hammerfell. Regardless, if the AD couldn't invade one province, they couldn't invade two either. Nurelion owns a shop in the city, which wouldn't happen if Ulfric was racist. And Beyln Hlaalu, who is a Dark elf, says: "The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work." and "Too many dark elves in Windhelm complain about the way we're treated. What good does complaining do?". He thinks the Dunmer are at least partially responsible for the way they live, much like Niranye, who says "The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum." If a Dunmer and an Altmer both think the Dark Elves are the ones keeping themselves in the Grey Quarter, then why would you ignore them? Belyn is certainly not biased against Dunmer, since he is one. The Elder Scrolls might have been moved from the WGT when the Emperor fled the city, or they might have been captured by the AD, but kept in the city and recaptured by the Empire during the Battle of the Red Ring. Also, like I keep saying, the Elder Scrolls have never helped anyone win a war before, no one seems to be able to use them properly except vampires and Dragonborn. I meant the AD flat out lost in Hammerfell, which they did. They commited thousands of troops to taking it, and were forced to withdraw without gaining anything. And all that you just said only happened because the Empire surrendered. If they hadn't, then they would be fine. If elves reproduced at the same speed as men, but lived ten times longer, then they would soon rule the world just because there would be millions of elves and only thousands of men.

@nekollx But unlike your bug, there is no clear evidence that Bethesda wanted the player to be able to get a pardon from Tullius. They might changed their minds after starting work on the quest, and decided to leave it how it is. Or maybe they just never got around to fixing it. Unless you can find proof of that, we will have to go with what is in game, not what might have been in the game.

@Kimmera The AD can't undo the world if they can't access the Towers, and they can't access the Towers unless they win the war. So while they want to undo the world, the only way to do that is to win the war. Okay, I was wrong about the main objective of the AD during 172 and 173, but during that time they were still trying to capture Hammerfell. And even when they threw all of their reserves at it, they still were defeated. Imagine if they had to split their remaining forces in half, do you think they would have been able to take Cyrodil or Hammerfell? Nurelion still owns a shop in Windhelm, even though he is an elf. And Belyn Hlaalu couldn't operate his farm without the Jarl's consent. And the Argonians are kept outside for their protection. I meant people couldn't freely talk about worshiping Talos, not that they would be arrested for saying his name. Their is evidence the Empire persecuted Talos worship, just not on pain of death. And about getting Thorald pardoned, like you said, "Things that an npc might have said if other coding was different don't count,". You can't say that Tullius giving Thorald a pardon counts when the game's coding prevents him from issuing that pardon. @CaptainPatch How could flat out losing a war ever help the AD in any way? I could understand if they were allowed to maintain some sort of presence in Hammerfell, like they do in Cyrodil, but that didn't happen. They were forced to withdraw after five years of bloody fighting. If they were going to let the Redguards win, why didn't they do it before they lost hundreds, if not thousands, of mer in Hammerfell? The Empire still has a strong army, and I can see why the AD is waiting to attack it, but as far as we know the Crowns and Forbears are getting along in Hammerfell, so why would the AD wait and let them rebuild unless the AD needs to do some recovering of its own. You keep saying that elves live longer than men, but a side effect of this is that they will reproduce slower, which means they would need much longer to recover than the Empire or Cyrodil.

@Kimmera Both the Aldmeri armies were still advancing up until the battle of the red ring, so the one in Hammerfell must have had enough support to be able to continue the attack, even if it didn't recieve as much as the on in Cyrodil. The Elder Scrolls have never been successfully used to help someone win a war, at least not on record, probably because they show either a possible future, or the past, or the present, and the person who reads the scroll does not know which one he is seeing. The White Gold Tower is probably deactivated after the Oblivion Crisis, so it is useless to the AD. Taking Hammerfell provides them access to the Admantine Tower, which is still active. And they did not decide to attack the Imperial city until after they started losing, so that was not a factor in their attacks until much later in the war. Did you read the Great War? It says that the AD had been stopped in Hammerfell by 4E173, which was before they shifted priorities to the Imperial City. Well, Nurelion doesn't have any shady connections, but he does have an alchemy store. And even if Niranye is a thief, there was a time when she didn't work for the guild or the Summerset Shadows so she could have been kicked out, and she wasn't. Beyln Hlaalu owns a farm, has a nord employee, and says "The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work." Now people can't wear Talos amulets, talk about Talos, or have a shrine in their room or kitchen. They have to just have a shrine hidden in their basement, or face punishment.

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch The Aldmeri had two armies (that fought in the war), and one of them invaded Cyrodil while the other invaded Hammerfell. How do you know what their main objective in Hammerfell was? It seems to me like it was to conquer it, but then when they started losing and the army in Cyrodil started winning it became to force the Empire to surrender. If it was just to take all of the ports in Hammerfell, then why were they attacking Skaven, which was not a port city, before taking Hegathe, which was a port city? And if the Redguards really were about to be defeated in Hammerfell, then how did they win the war? They manipulated him into starting the war, but they do not want him to win it. They want him to drag it out as long as possible, and then lose. If Ulfric wins the war quickly he messes up all of their plans. @nekollx Ulfric is fine with anyone joining his army, in fact, one of the reasons some of the Nords don't like the Dunmer is that none of them have joined the army. There are two different Altmer with shops in the city, and a Dunmer who owns a farm just outside it. Do you think any of this would happen if Ulfric was racist? Also, Ulfric has asked for help from the Bretons in High Rock, so I don't see any real evidence of him being racist. Even the Altmer who runs a stall in the market says the Dunmer are responsible for the fact that they are so poor, not Ulfric. And the Dunmer are most definitely racist, read "Dunmer of Skyrim", or listen to the one who says he won't care about the butcher until a dark elf is killed. The Argonians are kept outside the city because there are no empty buildings and because the Dunmer would probably murder them in their sleep. Alvor says everyone had a shrine of Talos in their BASEMENT. Talos worship was still persecuted, just not to the degree it is now. Also, you can just edit your post instead of double posting.

@Kimmera "the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun." To unmake the world, the AD first needs to conquer it so they have free access to the Towers. The forces in Hammerfell drove Lady Arannelya's army across the desert. What happened Lord Naarfin's army did not effect her army, so the troops in Hammerfell were not greatly effected by the Battle of the Red Ring until the Empire surrendered. The Great War says that "the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.", so I don't see how you can say otherwise. The Redguards had stopped the Aldmeri advance and were about to drive them back across the desert, which they managed to do even without some of their men (who were ordered back to Cyrodil). The AD hadn't won, and while they did occupy about half of Hammerfell, they had stretched themselves to thin and were about to be driven back.

@Kimmera But the AD was out of troops, or they would have conquered Hammerfell easily. The reasons he gives for the Empire not being able to continue the war is the huge losses they took, not anything else. The troops wouldn't need to march out of Cyrodil, and if they had been able to supply ten legions, then they should be able to supply two without a problem, even if southern Cyrodil had been destroyed by the AD. Southern Hammerfell was ravaged, but the rest of it was not touched by the war, so why do you think they couldn't have rebuilt. If Saadia is telling the truth, then the AD has taken over Hammerfell, but if she is lying Hammerfell is still resisting the AD. The AD wouldn't have been able to mount a serious attack on Cyrodil after the Battle of the Red Ring without withdrawing from Hammerfell, which would allow the Empire to pull some local forces from Hammerfell to help. @CaptainPatch The Legions in Hammerfell had stopped the Aldmeri advance before the Battle of the Red Ring, and you should really read this book if you want to know about the Great War. They hadn't defeated the AD, but they had stopped them from moving forwards. And unlike the Romans Pyrrhus faced, the AD did not have a huge supply of reinforcements waiting to destroy the Empire.

@Kimmera I should have said the equivalent of two or three legions, and that is assuming there are only ten legions. They could leave the legions with only a fraction of their full strength, but they would still have the equivalent of at least two full legions. And while they would have to demote some people, winning a major battle would increase moral, especially since they had killed the entire Aldmeri invasion force and would have a while to prepare while the AD got ready for a second assault. Elswyr does not necessarily have a large garrison in it, since it is only a client state of the Dominion, and might just be controlled with only a few Thalmor, much like Skyrim is. And Valenwood is not necessarily pacified, since elves live longer and therefore have longer memories, it would take much longer to brainwash them into submission. They wouldn't sit out of the fighting, they would fight in Hammerfell. Hammerfell seems to be pretty peaceful, and after a brief civil war Skyrim is peaceful too, and still has all of its infrastructure intact. Only Cyrodil seems to be collapsing. @Jukka1 Both the Empire and the Stormcloaks have good and bad points, and while I like the Stormcloaks more, there is no side that is clearly right or wrong.

@Kimmera The entire Imperial army was not eliminated, they lost most of their troops, but if they only had ten legions at the beginning of the war, and three were destroyed with the rest at less than half, the Empire probably had somewhere between two or three legions left. The Redguards were ordered to abandon their province to the AD to try to save Cyrodil. Since they did not want to let Hammerfell be destroyed by the AD, they left some people behind while most continued on to Cyrodil. Most of them did fight in the Battle of the Red Ring, but their general was smart enough not to sacrifice Hammerfell to save Cyrodil. The Empire had two or three legions left, and the Blades had been scouting the AD before the war, "The Thalmor ambassador upended the cart, spilling over a hundred heads on the floor: every Blades agent in Summerset and Valenwood." Yes, but Cyrodil would have had help from Hammerfell. The nords did help fight the war: "The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal." The Markarth Incident also took place after the Great War, or Ulfric wouldn't have been able to fight in it, so Ulfric's militia could have been formed from survivors of the Great War. If the AD had reserves, then why didn't they use them to defeat Hammerfell?