BrettM

No. You can join one of the sides and do the first couple of quests in the civil war, but then you will be sent by whichever side you joined to deliver a message to Whiterun. As soon as you speak to Balgruuf, he will insist that you deal with his dragon problem before he will speak to you about any message. So you can begin the civil war without dragons, but can't complete it without them.

Ouch. Now that you point out that Ralof meant "Eastmarch border" instead of "Skyrim border", it seems obvious. And I feel like an idiot for missing it. :)

Arrgh. Bad Gateway needs an oiling or something.

Mac, Imperistan, and others have eloquently addressed the charges of racism against Ulfric many times, so there is no point in my rehashing their arguments. I do not find the charges to be credible or supported, and I do NOT say this as an Ulfric lover. (I am definitely not an Ulfric lover, though I am not an Ulfric hater, either. I support the Stormcloak cause, but I have trust issues where Ulfric is concerned, and I will have a wary eye on him if any future DLC brings the rebellion back to the forefront of the story. One must learn to separate the cause from the people involved with it, because no cause is so just and pure that it will not attract any unsavory people in support of it.) There are a couple of things I would like to add, however. If you support the Empire, go talk to Brunwulf after he takes the throne of Windhelm. Guess what? The Argonians are still not allowed into the city and there are no plans to do anything for the Gray Quarter. Yet nobody calls Brunwulf a racist despite his maintaining exactly the same policies that Ulfric is being criticized for following. Listening to the Argonians talk about how much better things are under Brunwulf would make me laugh if it wasn't so sad, seeing as their situation hasn't changed a bit in reality. Only their perception of it has been improved. As for Galmar expressing disdain for non-Nords, he expresses the same disdain for many Nords as well. His criterion for disdain is not based on race but on the committment of the individual to the cause of freedom for Skyrim. It is unreasonable to call Galmar a racist based on the actions of his brother Rolff. We have the evidence of our own eyes and ears that Rolff is bigoted, but no such evidence for Galmar. The closest thing I've ever heard Ulfric say to "Skyrim is for the Nords" is "Skyrim should be ruled by the Nords". But those two phrases are not equivalent, especially when you consider the context. The second is a statement of a political view that favors local rule over rule by a remote Emperor who does not solicit input from his subjects, not a statement of Nordic superiority over other races. It's a rallying cry or slogan expressing the fundamental principle of the cause. Should we really expect anyone in Tamriel, no matter how open minded, to say something like "Skyrim should be ruled by its indigenous and naturalized citizens, regardless of their race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation," to avoid charges of bigotry? By the time you shouted that out on the battlefield, the war would be over. The explanation of how the Empire can rebuild is that the Thalmor can't do anything effective to prevent it? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second. How much of an army do they need in Cyrodiil, given its weak condition? They certainly had enough to root the Blades out of strongholds like Cloud Ruler Temple and exterminate them. Controlling a defeated enemy does not take as many troops as it took to defeat him in the first place. "The Empire exists because we allow it to exist." Does that sound like the Thalmor fear the nullification of the treaty? They believe, or have created the illusion, that they have the greater strength. The Emperor believes it as well, or he wouldn't have signed the Concordat in the first place. Since the strength has not yet been rebuilt, is he really going to suddenly grow a pair and throw the WGC out the window? He would then be right back where he was the day he signed it, at best. The Emperor backed down when he signed the treaty. He backed down again when the Thalmor screamed "violation" regarding the Markarth deal. The Thalmor don't seem to have any reason to think he won't keep backing down when put to the test. They don't need the power to countermand the Emperor's command, just the power to get him to reverse himself. And they demonstrably have that power. But, let's suppose that the Thalmor do want to avoid making provocative demands like "stop recruiting so many soldiers." To say that their only recourse is a stalling game is to trivialize their capabilities. The Thalmor have had decades now to spread their spies throughout Cyrodiil. In addition, they have surely built a network of informants, collaborators, and assassins. Would they do any less of this in Cyrodiil than we know they have done in Skyrim? Is there some reason to doubt that they have already recruited those with high positions in the government? Is there some reason to doubt that they have extensive files of compromising information on others that can be used at need to blackmail them into cooperation? Is there some reason to doubt that they can just accuse someone of Talos worship and haul them away if their actions become worrisome to the Thalmor? Is there some reason to doubt that they would resort to assassination if necessary to take out officers and instructors that seemed too competent, depriving the Legions of effective leadership and proper recruit training? All of that is a bit much to lump together and categorize as "stalling". Yet, let us further suppose that the Thalmor "stalling" doesn't work and the Empire rebuilds a substantial force. Could the Empire do this in complete secrecy given the Thalmor intelligence network? I highly doubt it. The Thalmor would know troop numbers, dispositions, training levels, etc. and be able to plan counter moves against anything the Empire might do. Meanwhile the Empire would have no equivalent intelligence on the AD, unless you think the new Penitus Oculatus is up to the same standards of espionage and covert operations that the Blades had developed over centuries. (Personally, the PO doesn't impress me, and even the Blades proved to be no match for the Thalmor, as was demonstrated on the 30th of Frostfall.) The Empire is blind and the Thalmor have more than one eye. It just doesn't wash to say that the Thalmor can do little to prevent or counter any rebuilding of strength in the Empire. They can do a great deal, and any explanation of how the Empire will someday be able to beat the Dominion has to address the problems I've outlined above, not just dismiss the problems as being of no consequence.

I agree about the poor farmers, given that my characters always end up with vastly more wealth than they can ever use. Same thing with the beggars. Why can't I at least give them more than a septim? I often want to hand them a set of decent clothes and a decent stake to get them back on their feet, unless they're totally crazy and obnoxious.

I, too, had always assumed my character was caught while entering Skyrim. Every character can have his/her own backstory about why they were doing this: fleeing persecution in Valenwood, driven by some vision to seek destiny in Skyrim, passing through on the way to Hammerfell, etc. It does raise a couple of questions, though. For one thing, the ambush was said to have taken place at Darkwater Crossing, which isn't exactly snug up against any border. For another, even a Nord character seems to be regarded by various NPCs as a foreigner.

If I implied that everything must be discounted, then I didn't express myself well. I fully agree that there is a range of credibility of sources and that some must be considered as Truth, or as close to it as we are likely to get, or the story would have no coherence at all. A flat statement of fact, such as Sybille Stentor's description of the challenge custom, has to be accepted at face value in the absence of other sources. An interpretation of events, such as Sybille Stentor's claim that Ulfric's Shout killed Torygg, has to be examined more closely for possible biases and misunderstandings. These two statements are contradictory. Either the Moot has the ability to override the High King...and involve itself in policy...or it doesn't. I explicitly stated that the Moot does not have policy authority. I also stated that I believe there are limits, at least in practice, on the authority of a High King. How do these statements contradict each other? I did not say the Moot was the source of any such limits. Just because the Moot has no ability to override the High King or involve itself in policy does not mean that the jarls must sit still for anything a High King does. The Moot's lack of authority does not mean that the High King's authority is utterly unchecked. The jarls have their own spheres of authority and perogatives, and I doubt they will tolerate a High King who flagrantly encroaches on them. This doesn't mean I think the jarls would call a Moot to resolve the policy dispute, since this is not one of the permissible functions of a Moot under Nord custom. But there are other means, ranging from the challenge custom to outright civil war, by which the jarls can work against policies and orders that they consider abusive. Nords being Nords, I suspect that they'd take action against an overbearing High King much sooner than a more passive culture that is predisposed to suffer abuses as long as they remain sufferable. Nord custom and the independent spirit of the culture places some practical restrictions on the authority of the High King, whether or not there are any legal limitations. The absolute authority may or may not exist legally, but it certainly does not exist practically. "The High King has made his decision, now let him enforce it," to paraphrase Andrew Jackson. "Absolute" authority is only absolute as long as the authority can convince enough others to respect and enforce it. A High King with any intelligence at all will understand this and will know the bounds that he dare not cross. I keep hearing this assertion, yet I never see an explanation of how they can pull it off. After Japan surrendered to the U.S. in WWII, could they have bided their time and rebuilt their strength before resuming the war? Of course not, because U.S. troops occupied their country and are still there today, enforcing a treaty that forbids them from becoming a threat again. Cyrodiil is now occupied by the Thalmor. How exactly are they supposed to rebuild their strength under those conditions? The WCG demanded the disbanding of the Blades, part of the Empire's strength, and the Thalmor came in and hunted them down, as well as beginning the hunting of Talos worshippers in Cyrodiil. I have no doubt that justiciars are still there, along with assorted spies calling themselves ambassadors, observers, and advisors. They have the "right" to accuse anyone they please and haul them away for interrogation and execution, apparently without needing to satisfy anyone that their accusation has any merit. Do you believe they won't use this power against anyone they see as a rising threat, manufacturing evidence if they must, to help keep the Empire weak? Do you believe the Thalmor representatives will hesitate to scream "treaty violation" about any imperial action that worries them, forcing the Emperor to back down because of his fear of continued war? The Thalmor encouraged the civil war in Skyrim to further reduce the Empire's strength. The Thalmor wish that conflict to continue, but, if either side wins, do you think the Thalmor will just give up and go home? Or do they have other operations to prevent the Empire from rebuilding militarily, and contingency plans for either an Imperial or a Stormcloak victory? I know which way I'd bet! No one who brings up the "strength in unity" or "rebuilding strength" assertions has yet answered these points with any explanation of how the Empire can overcome the disadvantages of its current position. If no one can explain how the Empire can rebuild strength under these conditions, then the claim that they will fails the laugh test. For my money, they can't. The Empire is doomed, and Skyrim's only choice is to go down with them or abandon the sinking ship and try for a better outcome.

Since the most famous of the earlier dragonborn -- Alessia, Reman, and Tiber Septim -- were all founders of empires, why not go with Romulus or Remus as a first name?

For my warrior-type characters, both light and heavy armor, I use a 4:1 ratio of health:stamina upgrades. For each five levels, choose health for four of them and stamina for one of them. This does mean I have to use power attacks selectively at lower levels unless I have a pile of stamina potions, but 4:1 has worked out well for me. The other approach is simply to keep track of what you run low on the most during a level and put your upgrade into that attribute. That should work for any play style. :) For warrior enchantments, I never find it redundant to fortify any combat skill I use regularly or to fortify health and stamina.

Lore in the Elder Scrolls universe is kind of a shifty proposition. What NPCs have to say must be discounted for possible bias, but so must the writings you encounter. Authors can disagree when talking about the same event, and can even be flagrantly wrong. For that matter, you even have to question your interpretation of things that you witness directly. Much like real life, one has to sift through competing claims and evaluate the credibility of sources to hopefully arrive at some semblence of truth, because there is no Revealed Truth to be had. The Aedra never speak to you and the Daedra are not above lies and spin. One can rarely point to something and pronounce it as the Authoritative Lore because there are usually competing versions that others can point to in refutation. Given the political structure and history of Skyrim, I don't believe the High King has anything approaching absolute authority. There are surely limits on the actions that the jarls will accept without rising against him. (The same is often true in Real Life. Ask King John whether the barons regarded his authority as absolute.) This division of authority goes all the way back to the founding of Skyrim, when the 500 Companions split up into separate crews led by their captains after the re-taking of Saarthal. Ysgrammor was accounted High King, but the crews operated independently. Even today the Companions of Jorrvasker have no actual leader. Nor is the authority of the jarls anywhere near absolute within their holds given the example of Dengeir being forced to step down by the nobles of Falkreath. Skyrim has a very strong tradition of self-rule within the holds and a great deal of personal independence. If Nord custom allows a jarl to challenge the High King to prove his fitness to rule, then Torryg would have been the one in violation of custom had he simply thrown Ulfric into jail. Torygg's court might have supported him in doing this, but the jarls might well have been very concerned about a High King who feels entitled to arrest jarls who have violated no existing law or custom. Whether or not Torygg has such authority technically, I don't believe he had it in practice. His only real choice was between trial by combat or trial by a Moot. He chose combat, for whatever reason. The Pact of Chieftains that ended the War of Succession in the First Era established that the Moot would meet to select a High King only when a High King died without a direct heir. Thus, the Moot was not involved in Torygg taking the throne, as he was the son of the previous High King. Elisif, OTOH, is apparently not considered a "direct" heir, so the Moot is needed to confirm -- or reject -- her claim to the throne. This addresses Breakwind's claim that the Moot selected Torygg and has the ultimate power. It isn't like a sort of parliament or the old Norse Althing. Generations may go by without a Moot being called. However, there is no mention in the description of this Pact of any right of challenge. Nor am I aware of any book that gives an example of such a custom being invoked against any High King in all of Skyrim's history. Ulfric's invocation of the custom may be technically right, but equivalent to relying on some old law that allows a man to beat his wife provided that he uses a leather strap no wider than two inches. Skyrim has been subject to imperial law since Tiber Septim took it into the Empire, which might void certain older customs even if the Empire has been hands-off regarding other aspects of the internal political system. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much information that would shed light on any of the questions surrounding this custom or relevant imperial law.

I've been thinking about the point often raised (including by myself) that Ulfric could have persuaded Torygg to go along with a revolution. Why didn't Ulfric take this approach, since he was probably well aware of Torygg's regard for him as it seemed to be common knowledge? It occurs to me that Ulfric had already been burned once in a similar way, resulting in some trust issues. He had an agreement with Jarl Igmund and that agreement was broken because Igmund didn't have the spine to back it under pressure at the risk of his throne. How could he be sure that Torygg wouldn't end up going back on his word as the Thalmor and Empire tightened the screws? Regarding Ulfric and the Greybeards, I can't imagine that being a Greybeard is indentured servitude, any more than being a Catholic priest is. It must be possible to renounce one's vows. However, if a priest renounces his vows, he is then obligated not to perform holy offices. He can't give communion, he can't hear confession, he can't give last rites, etc. I would think the equivalent for someone vowed to the Way of the Voice would be to stop using the Voice.

Yes, Rikke is in Sovngarde if you complete the civil war for the Stormcloaks before going there. If you complete it for the Imperials, Ulfric and Galmar are there. Torygg is there in any case, and Kodlak Whitemane is there if you have finished the Companion story line. These are the only named NPCs I have ever seen there across five characters who have completed the main quest. (Oddly enough, I've never seen Svaknir, though Olaf is expecting him. I would have liked a word or two with him.) The rest are nameless "Stormcloak Soldiers" and sometimes an "Imperial Soldier". Named or nameless, though, they are all Nords. I have not seen a single non-Nord outside or inside the Hall of Valor.

@Mac: Those are actual dialog transcripts. The parts about the High King are available to all characters. I managed to trigger the Greybeard parts with a character that joined the Stormcloaks before doing "Dragon Rising". I don't know if there are other conditions that might make this exchange available. Some comments on Ulfric's dialog: It would appear that Ulfric used Unrelenting Force on Torygg, not Disarm. This makes sense to me, since he also uses it on Rikke (Stormcloak finale) or on Tullius (Empire finale). I don't believe I've ever seen him use any other Shout, and he may not know any others given that ordinary mortals take years to master a shout. One does have to wonder about Ulfric's claim that he doesn't use his training lightly, though. In the fight with Rikke, she was outnumbered three-to-one: Ulfric, Galmar, and you. Was it really and truly necessary to send her flying across the room while taunting and laughing at her? He looked like a guy on a serious power trip during that fight. Once the adrenaline started flowing, a really brutal streak came out. It is quite clear that the Greybeards trained Ulfric with the expectation that he would follow the Way and become one of them. That seems to have been Ulfric's expectation as well. There was a meeting of the minds regardless of any formal written contract or vows. If Ulfric accepted the training with the secret intent not to follow the Way, then he defrauded the Greybeards. But I believe he went there with the sincere desire to join them. It is crystal clear that the Greybeards don't just train anyone, but only those that they judge will follow the Way. The Greybeards aren't operating some College of the Voice (and Tiber Septim's efforts to establish one came to nothing). The Greybeards don't want anyone using the Voice outside the strictures of the Way, and it would be ridiculous to assert that they are willing to defeat their own agenda by training anyone who can be expected not to follow the Way. They seem to have been successful at vetting their applicants until Ulfric, since we don't hear a single rumor of any other non-dragonborn, non-Greybeard Tongue in Skyrim over the last 2,000 years. (Note that Ulfric does not say that any Nord can learn the Voice if they have the dedication. He says that any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice. It is obviously up to the Greybeards to judge if the applicant is truly dedicated to the Way before training him.)

Here are some pertinent conversations with Ulfric. Q: You trained with the Greybeards? Yes. They chose me when I was just a lad. It was a great honor, of course. I was to become a Greybeard myself. I spent almost 10 years at High Hrothgar, learning the Way of the Voice. Then the Great War came ... I couldn't stand missing it. I often think about High Hrothgar. It's very ... disconnected from the troubles down here. But that's why I couldn't stay, and why I couldn't go back. I suppose the Greybeards care about Skyrim's troubles, in their way, but I needed to do something about it. I'm sure Arngeir would call it one of my failings. Q: So you know how to Shout? Yes. Although I rarely use my training. The Greybeards believe the Voice should be used only for worship of Kynareth. I have fallen from their strict teaching, but I still don't feel it should be used lightly. Not all of Arngeir's lecturing was wasted, it seems. Q: Why would they teach me to Shout if they didn't want me to use it? You're Dragonborn. The rules don't apply to you. You can Shout the way dragons do, without training, through inborn instinct. They always hope to teach the Dragonborn to respect the Way of the Voice as they do, but they never fully succeed. You'll have to make your own decision. It's a beautiful philosophy, but outside the seclusion of High Hrothgar I was never able to hold to it. Q: At Helgen, they said you Shouted the King to death? Not entirely true, though not entirely false, either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My Shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him. Q: Why did you kill the High King? I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself? Q: Some call you a murderer. I challenged him in the traditional way and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No "murder" was committed. True, he didn't stand a chance against me, but that was precisely the point. He was a puppet-king of the Empire, not a high-king of Skyrim. His father before him, perhaps, but not Torygg. He was too priviledged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than in ruling his country.

I believe the ancient Nords spoke the dragon language fluently even before men learned how to Shout using it. There are several bits of evidence that support this. 1. The draugr speak exclusively in the dragon tongue when they insult you, including the lower-level draugr who don't Shout. Not all draugr are Dragon Cultists, so this isn't something exclusive to the Cult. 2. Morokai, the Dragon Priest in Labyrinthian, speaks to you in dragon several times. Finally he gets disgusted and asks, in modern language, if he has to speak in this awful language to get an answer from you. 3. The Word Walls are all epitaphs and memorials written by ordinary Nords in dragon runes, as you note. This is also discussed in Dragon Language: Myth no More. 4. The book Holdings of Jarl Gjalund (on Farengar's desk after "Dragon Rising") is claimed to be a copy of a book originally written in the First Era. It is written partially in dragon runes and uses the dragon-language name for the Throat of the World (Monavhen). Perhaps the entire original document was written in dragon language and was translated when it was copied, or perhaps it was written at a time when the Nords were still changing from their original language to Tamrielan, so official documents needed to be bi-lingual. 5. According to Before the Ages of Man, Ysgrammor was the first one to develop a "runic transcription of Nord speech based on Elvish principles." To me, this implies that "Nord speech" (actually Atmoran speech) at the time was different than anything spoken in Tamriel, and could well have been the dragon tongue. The runic system he developed may be the same one we see on Word Walls and in Holdings of Jarl Gjalund, since the dragons themselves don't seem to do a lot of writing. We know that the original Atmorans all worshipped dragons, and this arrangement didn't become a tyranny until some time after they had settled Skyrim and cleared out many areas of Snow Elves. Dragon worship did not become a cult until after the Dragon War. The Atmorans basically got their civilization and laws from their Dragon Priests, and perhaps they got their language the same way.

The imperial military does seem to have a chain-of-command problem, aside from the lack of respect of town guards for their superior officers. ("Hey, that's 'keep your hands to yourself, sneak thief SIR!' unless you want a month on KP.") Random groups of soldiers escorting Stormcloak prisoners on the road will give you the "move along, citizen" routine despite your Legate rank. ("Who are you calling 'citizen', fool, and who are you to tell me this is none of my business? Drop and give me 20!") General Tullius seems remarkably unconcerned that the Thalmor are sending out hit squads for you. What kind of army doesn't back its own soldiers, particularly when they're high-ranking officers? Some band of brothers THIS is! At the end of the day, it looks like a hitch with the imps was a bad idea. Where's that Stormcloak recruiting office?

Shouts as we see them in gameplay are not necessarily Shouts as they actually work in lore. When the ancient Nord armies wanted to breach a fortress, for example, they called for a Tongue to Shout the gates down. (See Skorm Snow-Strider's Journal in Forelhost.) Tiber Septim and Ulfric are both reputed to have Shouted whole forces of defenders off the walls of cities. We can't do anything of the sort in game. We can send a giant flying through the air, but can't blow the door off a busted wardrobe. Game mechanics doesn't allow it, though such things are certainly possible in lore. Nor can we actually do some of the things that are demonstrated or mentioned to us. The summons of the Graybeards was heard on all sides of the mountain -- presumably all over Skyrim -- and shook the ground. Arngeir tells us the other Graybeards do not speak because even one of their whispers might kill an untrained, unprepared human. When Einar chastises Arngeir after he refuses to send you to Paarthurnax, the ground shakes with every word out of his mouth. Alduin Shouted Helgen to pieces, knocking down stone structures and turning houses into bonfires. We can't do any such things, though we are constantly told that our thu'um is stronger than Alduin's. We can't even light a campfire with our Yol Toor Shul in gameplay, though Yol alone would probably be sufficient to do this in lore. If Ulfric's Shout during the duel behaved as it does in lore rather than in gameplay, I can see how even eye-witnesses would have a mistaken impression of what had happened. It would be a very frightening and confusing experience for them, like "something out of a nightmare." They had never seen the Voice in use before and weren't expecting it, so their testimony on something outside their experience has to be taken with a grain of salt. @Mac: I question that third quote of yours saying that any dedicated Nord could receive training from the Graybeards. Arngeir himself tells you that they accept very few. And that must be few indeed, since there doesn't seem to be a large pool of applicants lined up outside of High Hrothgar. It's a wonder the group didn't die off long ago. I have one character who triggered an extensive dialog with Ulfric about his history with the Graybeards. I'll check and see if that dialog is still available to that character so I can get some transcripts.

(Urg. Bad Gateway ==> accidental double LONG post. Sorry. Mods please delete.)

I can't agree. To begin with, my point isn't about fairness, it's about Ulfric sticking to an agreement that we can be 99.9999% sure he made. I would certainly consider your postings dishonorable if I knew that you had once signed a contract swearing that you would never use your superior writing skills and vocabulary to post anything above a sixth-grade reading level in any online forum. It doesn't matter whether I would consider such a contract wise or unwise. The fact would be that you did sign it and honor obligates you to keep your word except under specific conditions. If the other party to the contract delivered on whatever consideration they offered to you, then you are bound by it unless they committed outright fraud or agree to release you. If you later came to regret your contract and broke it unilaterally, I would assuredly hesitate to make any bargains with you myself, even if I agree that the one you broke was highly unfavorable to you. Again, it isn't about the power or the fairness. Ulfric was perfectly free to use magic, swordsmanship, or any other martial skill because the teachers of such things in Tamriel generally place no strictures on the use of the skills they teach. If Ulfric had found someone else to teach him to Shout -- someone who taught it like any other skill without imposing moral judgements -- he could have used the Voice in perfect honor. (Though I would still look askance at anyone who used a sledgehammer to crack a peanut. Wretched excess is rarely an indicator of good character.) As for the dragonborn, again it isn't about fairness. The Graybeards have no leverage to use against a dragonborn to get him to follow the Way, because a dragonborn can and will eventually learn to Shout without any aid from anyone at all. Refusing to train a dragonborn will not work to advance their agenda. Demanding concessions from a dragonborn in return for their training, as they would do with ordinary students, will not work to advance their agenda. The only viable option the Graybeards have is to offer a dragonborn unconditional guidance regarding the Voice in hopes that he will give consideration to their moral guidance as well. Even so, they dole out their Voice guidance parsimoniously, interspersed with many sermons. And they will withdraw their support if you offend their code too flagrantly, such as by killing their leader. I also see another potential honor problem with the killing of an unarmed or disarmed opponent in a challenge match. Perhaps Nord custom does require such matches to proceed to the death, though we don't know this for sure, but killing a disarmed opponent except as the unstoppable follow-through of the disarming move strikes me as distasteful. It turns a duel into an execution, if not plain butchery. Even if not required to conform to strict honor, I would certainly give honor points to anyone who stepped back and let his opponent recover his weapon before proceeding. By the oldest traditions of many nations, I can keep another human being as my personal property and treat him as I please. That doesn't mean I won't be charged with a crime if I try to do that today, and citing "tradition" will not get me off the hook. Traditions change, hopefully for the better. The tradition that Ulfric wants to follow changed long, long ago. The first Nord tradition regarding Shouts lasted for about 1,000 years. Every fighting force had specialists trained as Tongues and Shouts were a normal part of combat. The second Nord tradition has been followed for the last 2,000+ years (more than twice as long as the first tradition), and it forbids the use of the Voice for anything but worship, except for the dragonborn. (And even a dragonborn is not going to get much approval from others if he uses his abilities to bully, steal, and murder.) By the first tradition, Ulfric did not commit a crime. By later tradition, Ulfric arrogantly misused a power in a manner that invites the retribution of the gods. Ulfric is trying to pretend the old traditions have been ignored for too long. But they were not ignored, they were changed. For a reason. Though some here don't think the reason was a good one. :) But that's a different debate. For the purposes of this debate, the Way of the Voice is the operative tradition, even if Ulfric would prefer otherwise and stamps his 'ittle foot and Shouts to get what he wants.

Hasn't TES pulled this stunt before? Everybody both gets and does not get the Powerful Artifact; the results of each party using the Powerful Artifact both did and did not happen; there is a Dragon Break, and the next TES game is full of new lore books with the authors wondering what happened. It looks like a new Warp in the West may be headed our way. :)

The one eye-witness I've found is Sybille Stentor, the court wizard in Solitude. According to her, Ulfric had asked for an audience and everyone assumed he was going to use it to ask for a rebellion. When he got to court, though, he issued a challenge. According to Sybille, Nord custom says that a challenge issued in court can be accepted or rejected. However, if rejected, Ulfric would then have the right to call a Moot that would determine the fitness of the High King and could replace him. (Of course, Sybille also ends her description by saying that Ulfric then Shouted Torygg apart, so one has to wonder at her credibility.) Did Torygg really have anything to fear if he had rejected the challenge? We know Ulfric wants to win the rebellion before any Moot because he feels that it would certainly confirm Elisif under the existing circumstances. But would the Moot have stood behind Torygg if he had rejected the challenge, or would they have regarded this as a sign of cowardice unbecoming a High King and turned against him? I can see where Torygg might have felt trapped in a situation where he would lose either way, so he elected to go down fighting to maintain his honor. It certainly seems to me that Ulfric lost honor by using a Shout, whether it tore Torygg apart or just disarmed him. The Graybeards don't talk about Ulfric specifically, but they do tell you that they accept very few candidates for training. When you ask why they are willing to train YOU, since you do not follow the Way of the Voice, they tell you that dragonborn are not bound by the rules of ordinary mortals. It seems pretty obvious that they do not accept others for training unless the candidate pledges himself to follow the Way. Ulfric must have taken that vow, and he broke it by using a thu'um against Torygg, which certainly doesn't speak well for his honor.

Now that Riverwood has been wiped out, some clever modder needs to make a mod called "No One Goes to Riverwood". Then wait for a Cease-and-Desist letter from Valve. :) Ah, well. It wouldn't be as much fun without the Zero Point Energy Field Manipulator anyway.

That was your big mistake. Now, if you had thrown BACON instead of cheese, they probably would have made you Emperor on the spot.

There was a gap of around 1,000 years between the end of the Dragon War and when Jurgen Windcaller invented the Way of the Voice, yet somehow Paarth managed not to go back to his old ways during all that time. I think he has a pretty good track record for self control. If he did go out of control, though, would he be any more of a problem than any other dragon? Only if he could gather enough of a following to start a new tyranny. But how many other dragons would be willing to follow him, knowing that he was the one who taught men how to fight them and win? I don't expect Paarth would win any popularity contests among them. I don't think Paarth is going to have much luck making converts to the Way. However, I wonder if it would be possible for the dragonborn to broker an agreement allowing the peaceful coexistence of dov and mortals in Skyrim. This wouldn't be without precedent and would not require the dragons to follow the Way. There were plenty of dragons around for centuries before the genocidal Akaviri showed up, yet there wasn't a general conflict between Nords and dragons during that time. There were undoubtedly incidents (Olaf and Numinex), but the dragons weren't seen as threatening enough to be worth a general war, much less an extermination. The race has a second chance now that Alduin has brought so many back to life. Can they be convinced not to blow it? Now THAT'S a quest line I'd like to see in a future DLC. The heck with "Season Unending", I want to organize and conduct a peace conference between dragons and jarls. That would be a real sight.

Obi-wan; "A young Jedi named Anakin, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, led the Empire to hunt down and destroy the Rebellion. He betrayed and murdered your father." Oy vey, I think I'd lead a posse against any writer at Bethesda who resorted to such an explanation. :D