Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Silfirian]

"I know many people will disagree with me, but I can't help but feel sorry for Bethesda." - Dark0ne.

 

With all due respect, Dark0ne, Bethesda is entirely covered financially and acquired in 2004 by ZeniMax Media reportedly valued at about USD $1.2 billion in 2007 (who received USD $150 million private investment in convertible preferred stock from Providence Equity Partners) - Skyrim has sold over 20-23 million copies since it launched in Nov. 2011 (almost USD $1.240 million today), plus, the Elder Scrolls franchise, is reported to have sold approximately seven million units, which we can impute translates to something like USD $210 million in revenue, and tried to take 75% on moders.

 

And you feel sorry for them? Really, Dark0ne? Wow, OK... I'm speechless. O_o'

[Fnhatic]

In response to post #24742594. #24742759, #24742849, #24742924, #24742934, #24743009, #24743059, #24743149, #24743254, #24743299, #24743359, #24743449, #24743474, #24743514, #24743524, #24743584, #24743604, #24743624, #24743724, #24743739, #24743769, #24743774, #24743884, #24743929, #24743984, #24744049, #24744139, #24744159, #24744279, #24744479, #24744519, #24744574, #24744719, #24744789, #24744794, #24744929, #24744964, #24744989, #24745004, #24745054, #24745174, #24745279, #24745339, #24745449, #24745494, #24745729, #24745734, #24745839, #24745939, #24746154, #24746294, #24746544, #24746674, #24746704, #24746719, #24747064 are all replies on the same post.

FavoredSoul wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: Sorry you feel that way FavoredSoul.

We'll survive with or without you.

We'll also probably be a lot more cautious with our praise and endorsements. And with our trust.

popcorn71 wrote: If your complaining about the hate being spewed on steam then why post files to the steam workshop? If Valve will not moderate their comment section and you don't like what people are saying about your mod then just don't use the workshop. Not that I'm excusing the tolls, but why put your self in a possession where you are subjected to their hate in the first place?

=== Edit ===
To clarify, I have not read ANYTHING on steam for several day. I currently have steam offline and firewalled. This all just seems too convenient to me and I don't really trust Valve right now.

Orgaya wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you.

This whole experience has taught me that this modding community is a massive s#*! stain.

FavoredSoul wrote: Fact is, the trolls are everywhere, workshop or not. nexus sites just do a good job of throwing a cloth over it. But its still there underneath.

And you're right. I will delete all my stuff of the workshop cause it is just awful over there.

dunmermagic wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but most major modders were against this. If you had some trolls get on your nerves, well that sucks, and if you feel the need to take down your mods, that's your choice. But nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything. That's the way it's worked for 13 years, and it's worked out pretty well if I do say so myself.

jmenaru wrote: I agree with you 100% FavoredSoul. I never expected Bethesda to remove this just because of the negative backlash, but I guess I was wrong.

FavoredSoul wrote: @dunmermagic

"nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything"


My point entirely.

Mod-users are happy to use you and your mods while you're offering, and then just as happily ready to throw you away without second thought.

You know what that is an example of? Taking another human being for granted for your own selfish needs.

phantompally76 wrote: Bah, stop acting like you're a victim.

6 days ago, selling your mods was illegal.

Axeface wrote: I completely agree with everything you said favouredsoul. This farse has shown what this community can be, it's like a pit of vipers. One thing is certain, I am disgusted by this community now and I dont want anything to do with it.

Now, I havent done anything really noteworthy for skyrim (althought I did take a very long time and effort making my small mods), but I have done extensive modding in other games, thousands of hours. The steam change got me interested again - I started drawing, I loaded up zbrush. I for one was really excited by the steam change and the quality mods we would have seen from it. It needed to be tweaked because is wasnt done well, but overall I think we are really missing out - both authors and users.

"hahahahahahahahha. Its hard enough getting people to CLICK A BUTTON TO ENDORSE A MOD, you think for a second people are going to strain their finger to use a donate button to give me their 5c? Reality is right here buddy, where have you been living?"

This is so true. I looked at my mods stats on the workshop that has 90,000 current subscribers - most days I get 0 'likes', on 'spike' days where I get a lot of dls (like a few days ago with 400 subs) I got 3 likes. I dont care honestly, but it shows just how sincere this 'we like to donate!' argument is.

"Valve and Bethesda certainly fcuked things up, royally, for a long time to come. All I want to do is remove my mods cause at least half of the hateful, selfish people out there just don't deserve anything at all. "

I was about to remove my mods too. Obviously mine are nothing mods, not like yours, but one has almost 100,000 subs. I just dont feel like I want to be part of this community anymore now.

EDIT: I'm removing my mods, "phantompally76" and his comments has pushed me over the edge.

Orgaya wrote: @FavoredSoul

You're not alone with that. Have you seen other mod authors' pages that decided to use the system? It was a real gong show. Constant feedback of people acting like they are entitled to free content.

@Everyone Else

If this experience has taught us anything, it's that no one deserves free stuff. We certainly haven't proven it.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ phantompally76

If i'm acting like a victim its because you, just now, made me a victim. I am a victim of your hate.

So someone wants to make 50c on a future mod that WOULDNT HAVE EXISTED IF NOT FOR THE SCHEME.

Mod authors are, and always will be, victims of mod-user hate. The hate that has been written for mod-authors here. The hate that has been written for mod-authors on steam. The hate that you wrote against me just right now, and all of the hate yet to be written.

nbtc971 wrote: You act as though someone hired you for a job. It was your decision and own desire to mod, no one asked you or forced you. In addition, when you created your content, you had to think at the time that you were doing it for free, so, if you don't want to do it for free any longer, then don't do it. I can't really blame you for that.

Anyone who creates anything for public consumption has to know that lots of people are entitled jerks. If you didn't, then I'm sure that was quite the wake up call. I haven't read all the comments, I'm sure there are a lot of fools saying stupid stuff, but that's the world we live in. Some will choose to punish those who are grateful due to the comments of the lowest denominator and I think that sucks, but, I can't really complain about it because it's not my time and effort that's being taken to task.

jfisha wrote: I'm just going to throw this in there, but I've personally never complained or wrote s#*! about a mod author because their mods are free. You can't complain about something you're getting for free, right?

Of course, that's not true for everyone, but with a free mod if you hid somebodies comment or told them to "f off", I'd be right there with ya.

However, if I paid for your mod, you'll f'nng take it and like it. You're no longer a person putting up free content, you're like the telephone company now, and I'm a very nice person but the lady that answer's the phone there absolutely hates me.

SkepticalJoker wrote: FavoredSoul,

No one is forcing you to make mods. If it's not fun, then why the hell are you doing it? Find another hobby, for goodness sake! And yes, it IS a hobby. It always has been. Nothing has changed on that front. Valve and Bethesda tried to do exactly what you claim mod users are doing: Take advantage of you. They wanted you to labor, then sell your labor to users, and keep 75% of the proceeds. The only people that win are Valve and Bethesda. Mod users may use your labor by playtesting and enjoying your mods, but they aren't making a profit off your work either. They're not asking you to make mods that they can then sell, while kicking back a measly 25%.

This idea could have worked if the kickback was fair and there was some modicum of assurance to the consumers that mods would be properly curated. As it stood, mod authors were getting screwed, consumers were getting screwed, and the legality of it all was questionable to say the least. Valve and Bethesda did one thing right, and that was to shut this absurd experiment down.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

You speak wise words.

phantompally76 wrote: FavoredSoul, I don't hate you.

I'm just very disappointed with you.

I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that.

I'm not going to lose any sleep, either.

Orgaya wrote: That isn't what the complaint here is. It's this idea that modders should never be given the option to be paid because the mod-user is entitled to free content for no reason. This simply isn't true or fair. And it's wholly disrespectful and incredibly insensitive to treat those who are giving handouts like dogshit.

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is a rather minority stance here. I think you will find most people at the Nexus are in favour of the option to give back to those they want to give back to.

EDIT: Isn't it actually technicaly, probably illegal to be even having these conversations now Bethesda has pulled the rug?

jfisha wrote: I disagree, Orgaya.

We were given the content. That's not a feeling of entitlement.

If you and I were hanging out and I gave you one of my beers, I can't tell the rest of my friends that you're an entitled piece of crap because you took it.

Let's not forget that up until three days ago, most of us here thought all the mod authors were perfectly fine with the way things were going. We've been thriving for four years, for Christ's sake.

I don't think that point gets brought up enough

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

Its so flawed.

THE ENTIRE MODDING SCENE IS ABOUT CHOICE.

I make a choice to make mods.
People make a choice to consume them.
I make a choice to charge 50c for a particular mod...

Yeah, no one asked me to be a modder. In just the same way, nobody asked you to be a consumer.

I have a choice to charge 50c, you have a choice on whether or not to pay 50c.

What gives you the right to come along and say you may not charge 50c?

Orgaya wrote: @phantompally76

You're disappointed in him... because he wanted to be compensated for his work. Ugh. It's just a game. You don't need mods. Sorry. You don't. None of us do.

phantompally76 wrote: Orgaya, did you even read what you just typed?


I agree with you. We don't NEED mods.

We don't NEED to buy them, either.

BadYeti wrote: Now imagine having all those mod users as customers. Having to solve their insane issues because you accepted their money. :~O It's the stuff of nightmares.

digitaltrucker wrote: Indeed, once they've paid for it they DO become entitled at that point.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

I'm aware that a 75% cut for valve and Bethesda made those guys appear greedy to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, its for the mod-author to decide whether or not the contract is fair, not the consumer. The decision gets made when the choice is made on whether or not to sell. I know that there are a lot of people who were ok with paying mod-authors for their work, they just had a huge issue with paying valve/bethesda that 75% for doing nothing but facilitate the exchange. But um... that's how businesses operate. There is ALWAYS going to be a middleman.

I also think you are unaware of the volume of money that was actually being made by the paid mods scheme. Even with a measly 25% cut, the money being generated was PHENOMENAL.

That mod-author with the skull face armor being sold at 1.99 per unit? that made at least 2100 sales before it was taken down. That's 4179$ of which 25% was his for a total of 1044$. Even after losing a few % to fees, that's a damn LOT of money for a few days of sales.

If that was you making that money in 4 days, you wouldn't give a f- for 25%. You'd be more than happy to take what you got. Don't think for a second that if you were in a position to sell mods for that kind of money, that people wanted, you wouldn't leap at the chance.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ BadYeti

And it is because of this that this ecosystem of different memebrs of a community is so important and unique. Bet you it was a f'ing nightmare here when things started out... come to think of it, there are still many volatile situations. One thing the people who run this site have compared to Steam and Bethesda, is experience in dealing with the massively dynamic world of modding.

nbtc971 wrote: I didn't come along and say anything, because it's not my place, however Bethesda, in this case, did create the very tools you used to create your mod. They also created the game you are modding. Obviously they have the right to tell you if it's ok to profit from their work. I personally didn't make a single comment in favor or against the system. I did however listen and read opinions from my favorite youtubers and I felt like they made some valid points.

If a system can be put in that is fair to everyone, then fine. I don't think gaming companies and Valve should take 75% of the freakin profits! I also want assurances that the mod is going to work when I buy it and after any other updates. In addition, I would want any mod conflicts to be reconciled in a timely manner, or eliminated all together. Right now I just don't think modders are going to be able to provide the type of service required for a paid product. At least not with Skyrim. For it work, we might have to have a new system for the next game.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: My paid non-internet office job, which I make my living off of, is to listen to people complain all day.

If you can't handle a few trolls, then you shouldn't do anything involving the public. Everyone gets trolled. I was bullied as a kid but I grew from it. At least the people on your Steam page can't physically attack you.

You go on about entitlement, but you sound pretty entitled to the recognition of your mods. Mods get recognition on their merit of usefulness, not purely because you put a lot of effort into it (don't get me wrong, the fact that you put effort into it has merit too).

If you want to make money off of your artistic talents, make a game. I enjoyed webdesign and in a few work instances I made websites.

Don't try to make money off of an open source community. That's another thing, and it's quite an unethical thing.

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

A lot of people keep making that argument, that this system goes down the toilet when mods break, cause you've paid money and there must be assured of a certain level of quality assurance.

well, user review systems have always existed to inform users about the sensibility of product purchases. Why have people suddenly forgotten about this?

Secondly, the mods that would have gotten the most sales are the cosmetic ones, the weapons, armors and skin mods. These mods seldom break, and any mod-author with half a brain wouldn't upload something that didn't function.

There would have been plenty of opportunists popping up all over trying to make a quick buck off of broken/ half finished mods for sure, but that brings us back to the user review system. One negative review and that mod will be exposed, it'll get buried and life will go on.

Zink6 wrote: Going to be honest with u, what kind of bottled life have u been living? U want an internet without hate? Have u been using the internet for long? U think ur the only poor type of sap to be flamed at? Bud if u cant handle this much on the internet then u need to not only stop modding but stop using the internet.

As for ur reaction. Ur the same as the the ones flaming u. U give ur points in a sarcastic sense and poke fun at the arguments that people have presented. U bring no constructive criticism. U say how u hate half the people here yet for some reason expect love in return. Knowing all this u still bother to post this comment.

Like really man ur acting like such a child. Plz grow up. This is the internet, ppl talk s#*!, if ur famous in a sense, ur going to be asked to kill yourself (this is not ok but at the same time how u going to stop it). U need to learn to ignore those ppl and work with the admins to better police the site. That's as much as u can ask or expect. If u want anything more u can go dream about it in ur sleep because if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?

nbtc971 wrote: @FavoredSoul How does a negative review make someone forget they spent money for a broken mod? Most people will care more about their hard earned money being wasted than the opportunity to leave a negative review in the hopes that it destroys a mod author.

jad31te wrote: "if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?"

I dunno, actually mod the site and start banning trolls?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just sit back and wait for SOPA.

jfisha wrote: "You're damn straight its a mod-user vs mod-author argument."

I'll keep reiterating this until I turn blue in the face. No, it is not. Why, you ask? Because there's some mod user's that agree with you, there's some that don't. There's some mod authors that agree with you, some that don't.

There are three sides to this argument.

People who think mods should always remain free (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who think mod authors should be allowed to make money (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who will pay for good mods, but think Valve just implemented a crappy system (includes mod authors and mod users)

pvbridgeford wrote: I understand the frustration you are feeling, I'm a new modder, just learning how to mod. I've posted some small mods and rather insignificant at best. The complaints are endless from a few bad eggs, but I'm 67 now and have learned to let the s#*! hit the fan and step out of it's way. I respond to positive comments, but refuse to respond to anyone that is not at least constructive in their negativity. I hope you find it in your future to continue the great work you have been doing and find a way to enjoy the modding community again. Until then I'M Keeping all your work I've downloaded in a safe place so i'll have access to it in the future when I get a new computer.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

savagemoonlight wrote: Aren't you putting yourself up for even more abuses if people were to pay for your mod? Hey I want this sword to be green. I want it to sparkle. Hey you better give in to my demands cause I've freaking PAID for you mod, you're obligated to do as I ask.

Truth is, self-entitled abusive arsehole will always be around and I'm sorry how they've made you so cynical but paid modding is definitely not a solution to this.

roland113 wrote: Well said FavoredSoul.

You nailed it on the head, all the common negatives mod creators get a lot of as they pour their hearts into work. The 1 or 2% of people who take the time to hit the endorse button and people who want to use it to extort their requests even through they keep coming back and downloading every update you do. There are always a few trolls and angry, immature weirdos out there who ruin any online community or game.

It's easy to put up with community crap when its a paid job and you've got people plunking down monthly subscription fees, DLC or other things. Its entirely another when you're basically sharing stuff for free that you're doing for the pure passion of it.

Online game communities always schism like this when big changes hit too. Even good people get all worked up into a froth, and misinformation spreads too. Tensions rise and things become as volatile as if things were red hot discussions on religion or politics. I've seen it time and time again in the industry, and I'm even going through some stuff like this at my day job right now. ugh. Make a change in an existing system and all hell breaks loose.

It's easy to get furious at the jackasses of the world - but when all is said and done - I hope you're still able to appreciate the good community people too.

I still love working with the good people here in the Nexus community who are for the most part really cool and enthusiastic. I've met a lot of nice modders and fans from around the globe, and made quite a few really nice people here. The letters/ videos/ posted art and the helpful suggestions I get really make all the difference for me when I'm modding. It keeps me motivated and from working in a vacuum, and makes it easier to strive to improve.

For me this is basically my nightly jam sessions, and my free time to do whatever work I want, the way I want. The haters - well if they start to cross the lines I just delete them from my boards or ignore them. As for Steam - i mostly stayed away from that from the start, and will continue to do so because its community has never been the same caliber the Nexus is.

viperony wrote: I feel for you and hate to see the trolls being mean to you for your mods! But know most of us who love your mods are here to support you even with the donation button and what not your work has made a lot of us happy and we see the amazing effort you had done and the love seen in your work. Please don't listen to the bad comments or feel down because of them they can go up a tree! Don't remove the mods just because they are getting to you.

}{ellKnight wrote: @Orgaya
I'd agree with you if Bethesda were competent enough to fix their own game and make a decent UI. This hasn't been the case for years.


@FavoredSoul
People will be dicks on the internet regardless of whether they pay you or get your stuff for free. I highly doubt you'll put up with less s#*! if they can also throw in the "but I paid you for this" argument on top of all the other ones when they demand you do a certain thing a certain way. Like I said, people will be dicks on the internet.

I'm not saying some modders didn't get flamed. It isn't the right thing to do, this much is obvious for most of us and when talking about this on the different forums I directed my disappointment at Valve and Bethesda, not at the modders. Reading people's thoughts about this stuff on the forums where trolling gets you banned pretty fast I noticed that other people did the same as I did: arguing in a civil manner, not flaming modders. Did some people post s#*! on the nexus? Yes... they but were also banned for it when reported by the the rest of the community. Did some people post s#*! on steam? Yes... but most of them are still there and encouraged by other trolls. If you think putting your mod behind a pay wall on SWS will make people less rude on the steam forums you're sorely mistaken. Not to mention that the SWS is horrible for hosting skyrim mods due to the way information is baked into the save game. It can royally screw over your game and this is not even accounting for the conflicts that can pop up as mods get updated. As a user you have no control over updates.



You guys can "thank" us all you want by calling us shitstains and other names... we've done this for the past 13 years for free and it has produced amazing results and we want to preserve that. We've uploaded mods and had to put up with selfish people just like everybody else. It sucks but you have to remember that most people don't feel that way, that most people really appreciate the work we put into this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @FavoredSoul You need to look at the big picture here. That mod you said, the skull armor one, making a LOT OF MONNEEYY, it's the perfect example of why this system will harm the modding scene.
Some may say that being paid for mods will encourage mod authors to make great effort and create wonderful mods. While I think that's true, it will be the minority.
This model Valve implemented, will be filled with half assed armors and weapons, mostly cosmetics, with 0 passion and effort. Just like the app store for android. Hundreds and hundreds of stupid crap, totally tasteless and dull games, etc. The good mods will be few. The majority of people will take advantage of the brainless consumers and make no effort whatsoever for their mods. Modders will start to think and make mods with money in mind, passion being minor. It will be like a paid job, with deadlines and such.
I never thought of modding as a paid job. FOR ME, this will ruin the spirit of modding.

The Sims modding scene was DESTROYED when money got involved. A lot of sites started to exploit this, making paid mods a regular thing. Thank god its getting better, slowly.

Anyways, thats my point of view.

jfisha wrote: ValtielCurse

Let's not forget those poor souls who are scared away from sites like the Nexus just because they might have to do something other then hit "subscribe" to get a mod. Even if there's awesome free armor that blows away anything on Steam Workshop for 2 bucks, they'll still blindly pay it.

I guess that's not really much of an argument against it. Maybe those poor saps should be taken advantage of

ChizFoShiz wrote: No way I'm reading down this whole chain cause it looks scary kind of long, but I feel like chiming in.

I'm 100% with you FavoredSoul, the most disgusting part about this is authors were given an option to do something we couldn't before and it's been stripped away just because petulant people can't stand the thought of not having access to everything they "deserve".

That's all this boils down to, it's the same argument that was happening years ago over DLC, except this time you're hurting people who have shown nothing but incredible amounts of good-will to you for years instead of developers who are already being compensated.

And the worst part? Those who did want or try to be compensated are the ones being crucified as "greedy".

What's more greedy, asking for $0.99 for the project you've labored over for thousands of hours, or demanding that price shouldn't exist and I should get that for free because I always have before?

Because the answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

I've only started to share my plugins in the last couple of years but with the way the audience around the internet in general have acted I doubt I'm going to bother in future and I'm seriously considering making my current files disappear.

jfisha wrote: ChizFoShiz

This thread is not nearly as long as some of the others.

You can do what you want, man. I can understand why you're pissed and if you feel that the community at large needs to be your punching bag, then do what you need to do. A ton of people were all for you guys doing what you wanted, some of us were supportive of you guys but didn't support your decision. If you feel the whole community at large deserves your hatred because you didn't get your way, so be it

d4rkoverlord wrote: Welcome to the internet, FavoredSoul, I use your ultimate assortment mod, and I've been very pleased with it, remember that for each one of those people who complain or give you hate for not getting what they want from you, there are lots of other people who really enjoy your work.

However, as this is internet, almost everything you post, do or say is subject to criticism, good or bad, constructive or destructive, but then again words are only that. If someone doesn't like your stuff, f*** it, do what you want to do with your stuff and only attend to what you consider important.

My final comment is towards the point of getting monetary reward for your mods:

Look I understand your point since mods take effort and time, but you have to understand that when you add money to the formula things must change because the hobbie must become a job/bussiness and as such people are going to demand more from you based on what they're paying and if you can't even take a few hate comments like a man now that there's no money involved, wait till you start charging people for your stuff.

BTW I dont know if your current occupation is related to graphic design or videogames production in general but I do think that with your talent you could be dedicating to that as a formal carreer, so if you're not already into that, you should focus on it instead of those "evil comments from those poisonous people" that torment you so much because that gives a lot more revenue than you could have gotten from that infamous 25%.

fullk0ntact wrote: I usually don't post on things like this because I can typically find better uses of my time, but on this comment in particular I feel inclined to do so. It seems to me that your post only focuses on the negatives of the community and not the positives. Being pessimistic in nature, this is rare for me to say, but it is so blatantly apparent here I felt the need to point it out. Not once in my entire time on the internet have I bashed a mod author for their work, even if I didn't like what they had made. I either gave my praise or I shut up and moved on.

Additionally, although I wasn't outspoken about this "paywall" issue, I did sign a petition against it. I didn't sign it because I was against mod authors charging for their mods, I signed it because a super-corporation wanted to take 75% of the mod author's hard earned money. Well, that's not the only reason, there was also mod stealing and absolutely 0 quality control for what was posted on the workshop in the paid mods section, but I think you get the point.

Boxilot wrote: The "should we pay for mods" argument went through the sims community like hot fire about five years ago now, too. When certain modders started to hide their content behind "donations" (in other words, you had to donate said amount to get their content).

The debate was long, it was hard. We got pirate sites. People were hacked. People were run out of their homes. Yeah hard to believe about the people who play sims of all things right?

Well people didn't like that what we were doing as a community was going to benefit a few select. We had modders who did it for fun, and we had modders who did it for gain. Needless to say it ended up with EA stepping in and now all mods are free. We can finally have a proper community again where things are done in the spirit of fun and community, not in the spirit of money and undercutting and entitled customers.

If you don't do it for fun and you feel you should be compansated (honestly, the idea that you feel you need to be compansated for CHOOSING to do a certain thing with your own game is absurd to me) then in my honest opinion I don't think you should continue. You're obviously not doing it because it brings enjoyment to you anymore.

I don't mod in the skyrim scene but I mod in the sims scene and I do it for fun. I do it because I feel like I want a certain thing in my game and then I share it with my friends because they might want it too. The concept of money wasn't even an idea before Beth and Valve came rushing in, yelling at the top of their voice. Now we have modders left right and center that feel they're owed something. That they deserve compansation for what they're creating.

People spend hundreds, thousands of hours writing fanfiction, do they demand pay for that? No. Why? Because they did it for fun. They don't expect to get compansated for doing something in the spirit of the community.

ChizFoShiz wrote: jfisha that's not even the point here, it's got nothing to do with "not getting my way", I didn't even take part, for me it's mostly about human decency.

Honestly the decision to ditch the system was disappointing but not exactly world shattering.

The hate and the entitlement of the userbase at large however is what's so soul-crushingly hurtful and is clearly what FavoredSoul is getting at too.

That harassment, the threats, the "You won't be missed" comments from ignorant people who've likely never even shared a thing with the community. It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them.

And to the people who have posted "you should expect hate" "get used to it" and the rest of this tripe, you clearly have never been on the receiving end of this behaviour, certainly not en masse, so maybe shut up? There *is* no "getting used" to threats from people you don't know, ever, because you've got no idea what's an 8 year old idiot half way across the globe and who's an unstable lunatic on the other side of town, get it into your skulls that this is NOT okay behaviour and that everyone, including you, needs to take a damn stand.

This is getting way too long and seems like I'm directing it all at you jfisha but it's really not. This whole debacle illustrates yet again the major problems with gaming culture and internet culture overall and that there needs to be some kind of major change here.

I'm tired of being an island in an ocean of pricks.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ChizFoShiz

Thanks chiz. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is very disappointing to think about what COULD have been, had the scheme continued. I would have certainly loved to invest a huge amount of my time and effort into new sets of mods. And its what Valve and Bethesda wanted. They wanted a financial incentive to induce people with real marketable skills to consider creating mods of the highest quality (when they otherwise would not have considered doing it) The less desirable emergence of opportunists, and the inevitable sea of mediocrity, an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect.

Rayek wrote: I've been around for awhile and experienced the trolls and unappreciative/expectant people. Even the horrid dislike button.

I agree it's a shame that people can't take the time to endorse mods to give the author a minor pat on the back...or leave a nice comment.

I agree the donate button won't solve much based on what I've seen in endorsement and donate trends.

I however disagree with your approach, it's no better than the people who are selfish, expectant to a modder and can't step back and look at it from another point of view.

I do mod for the "passion" of it, for the creative release, for the learning experience and for the hope that some others will get the same enjoyment out of what I created. 1, 2, 3 or 100 negative comments doesn't take away form those that do enjoy a mod.

To punish those who enjoy your mods by removing them cause others are jerks and don't is...for lack of a better word...childish.

I hope it's just frustration that's eating at you right now and you can look back and reconsider your stance, keep your mods up and move past this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @ChizFoShiz "It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them"
But is it okay if they pay, to share things with them?

Haters and stupid people will always exist. It will NEVER change. The best way is to ignore them and stay with the people that care. Those are the ones that move your ways, and fire up your passion for this thing called modding.

And funny, I get more s#*! and hate irl that on the internet. Here I come to escape from the hell that is my every day life. Don't say that you are the only one on the receiving end.

Xavathos wrote: FavoredSoul.

I feel you have become as bitter as the people you describe. You seem to forget the fact that the majority of people who speak out are the ones with the destructive attitude, because generally people do not go out of their way to say "thank you". Not because they are not grateful, but because it's hardly worth a post and you should know that your mods are useful and appreciated by simply watching the download counter.

When people make requests with a lack of respect, you don't need to respond or act upon said request in any way. If someone punched you in the face and then asked for a quarter to make a call, you wouldn't give it to him either, would you?

However, the vast majority of the community, even if it may not seem that way because they are not as... obnoxious as the destructive trolls, are people that are very much grateful for your mods, or any other mods for that matter and it's those people that would you punish by removing mods or stopping to make/update them.

If you think the trolls care, and you can get them back that way, I'm afraid you misunderstand them. They troll specifically because they do NOT care. Whatever you do, it doesn't affect them, it does affect us.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this subject. Perhaps seek out your inner optimist and try to find the silver lining. All in all, you didn't start modding for nothing, right? Hold on to that, and trust in the part of the community that does care. Let go of all the hate and trolls, it will only turn you as bitter as they are. Don't let them win.

Halendia wrote: I suppose as I am an exception in most cases, but I've spent over $120 in donations total to the Nexus community authors, I go through my mod list frequently to endorse every mod I decide to permanently add to my collection, and/or a mod I feel is worthy but cannot keep. I have created mods, I've ~250 hours clocked in the CK, not a lot compared to others, but eh, it's +/-250 hours. I've spent countless hours battling comments sections, to either help defend and author or help troubleshoot. I've made patches for some mods in order to assist the author receiving more spotlight - asking for nothing in return.

I know for certain that I have donated to some of the authors that decided to add paywalls to their mods, Isoku is a good example. I donated more than he would have received had I bought his mods from the Workshop.

I AM ONE OF THOSE USERS, so what about me? I have EXPLICITLY gone out of my way to try make modding more fun by assisting/donating/contributing/encouraging authors, and also made a few measly mods by myself.

So what about me?

hafizlordfeast wrote: Ever heard the word "This is why we can't have nice things"? Yup, people who does amazing things will rarely get the gratitude they deserve, so it comes to how they handle it in the end, and I'm not just talk about modding, but everything there is to life. Sure it sucks to provide something to the people that is worse than animal out there, but if you can endure the internet abuse, without the need to give up, some people will be grateful as well.

You do have my thanks for providing some of the cool mods, that I used and maybe forget to endorse, and probably will donate if only the money differences ain't so contrast enough in their cost, between different countries, still don't have enough money you know, even if I do, I rather pay extensively if I want to donate something on the internet. Of course, we all know that most people are used to committed on being douche in the internet every day, instead of giving back something good.

I could not fathom how people could live a life of bullies everyday without the feeling of at least saying "Thank You". I know I wouldn't want to be friend with any of them, and rather just give each of them a good punch in the face, if I could. If only the computer will let me do that. But I do say this, thank you for the hard work you've done, even though you have received the treatment you don't deserve, we, half of the community who also stay behind the curtain, are grateful for your services over the five or so years.

ChizFoShiz wrote: My final line was to convey just how overwhelming the awful to normal ratio is on the internet, not to suggest that it's me vs the world.

That being said the fact that the internet is like that right now doesn't mean it should continue to be and it doesn't give people a free pass to let it.

If human beings just said "Well, that's the way it is!" every time something was wrong in society we'd never make progress, this is no different to any other societal problem and it needs a remedy.

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

It's noble to want to change the situation of the internet, but how do you suggest we remedy this?

Going back to medieval times, pick up our pitchforks and torches and "burn the trolls" signs? And if so, who would we burn? Everything is essentially anonymous.

Fact of the matter is, there have always been people like this since the beginning of time. Liars, cheaters, scammers, frauds, bullies, or criminals of any other kind. It's just in the last 30 years it's become much more apparent because of the way the internet and other media spread the beliefs of these trolls uncensored and without consequence to the person hiding behind a username.

And yeah, it's getting worse. But I ask you again, how do you think to remedy this?

@FavoredSoul

At the end of the day, the paywall scheme almost certainly was going to destroy collaboration, completely f*#@ up 'complementary' mods (ie: the 'recommended to use with this mod...' lists), and basically price everyone out of the ability to mod Skyrim even close to what they were used to, because with every crackpot modder thinking his product is worth 'just $4', a huge install would cost literally hundreds of dollars.

Regardless if the 'most profitable mods' were going to be stupid ugly Skeletor armor or not, introducing greed into the mix was going to severely change how modding for Gamebryo works, for the worse of everyone except the people profiting.

You were going to throw all that away for your own personal payday.

[Saerileth]

For some reason I cannot access Bethesda's blog piece that you linked. It takes me directly to the german version of their site (presumably because I'm currently in Germany) and the only two news posts I can find there are the original anouncement of paid mods and the free Skyrim weekend (which is over by now anyways).

 

It's a shame, I would've liked to hear their side of the story for a change.

[GoblinHours69]

In response to post #24747119.

Silfirian wrote:

Maybe because it's a company run by human beings? Money doesn't instantly make you not have feelings, whether it's the feelings of a large quantity of people or not.

Bethesda's article looks like a company that was bullied into making a decision, because it was.

[acidzebra]

In response to post #24733144. #24733204, #24733229 are all replies on the same post.

badpeoplesuck wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: That's on their conscience. Not ours.

Riprock wrote: Not entirely blameless, us. Things were said. Not from all of us, but that won't matter to some.

Phantompally, my mods are nothing special, and I would never offer them for pay or even ask for donations, for one thing because you lot are already an entitled and whiny bunch, and if I received monetary compensation for them I would feel obliged to support instead of telling people to fix their own damn game and write their own damn patches.

However, the reaction to good mod authors who have contributed immensely to this community over the years for free and who did go for the paid option, the vilification, hate, threats, and god knows what else they received plus your boorish responses and those of a few others in this thread have convinced me that I am also no longer interested in sharing with this community.

I have contributed and people have enjoyed my work. What have you contributed to this community you like to go on about? Not a damn thing. Walk two miles in someone else's shoes, then open your big mouth again.

[TheBoogerMan]

In response to post #24745999. #24746344 is also a reply to the same post.

Blitz54 wrote:

printerkop wrote: exactly.

Yeah, you got that right.

If it was plain old vanilla, I wouldn't be playing it anymore (good as it was).

I'd actually STOPPED playing Skyrim on console a long time ago. But, when I finally jumped the console ship and made landfall on PC Island, I actually repurchased Skyrim, Fallout 3, Fallout NV and their various DLCs precisely because of all the mods. That's me paying Bethesda TWICE for the same content because of the modding community - and I did it happily.

Now I play all three pretty regularly. Edited April 28, 2015 by TheBoogerMan

[diyeath]

In response to post #24745044. #24745229, #24745464, #24745559, #24745634, #24745674, #24745769, #24746064, #24746434, #24746794, #24746974, #24747029 are all replies on the same post.

oldnotweak wrote:

jfisha wrote: Did you not read any comments that were in support? Did those get deleted or something?

ChizFoShiz wrote: The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense.

It's absolutely shameful.

chaotix14 wrote: Most of those were just afraid their mods and the future modding community would go and hide behind a paywall. Also it didn't help that they launched it on steam, the problems with early access, greenlight, the open sewer gates policy on the store and even the steam workshop itself as a service, did not fill the community with a lot of faith in what this would turn out to be. And reading about the 24 hour return policy didn't exactly fill many with faith. I mean it basically was a statement that either said: "we don't understand mods. And we don't understand that you might not have the time to immediately go play the game." or "We don't care that you are left with broken stuff."

BadYeti wrote: You haven't seen entitled users until you accept their money. :P

theblueshark wrote: should have been a 1 week trial..some mods wont show that its s#*! till you're half way there..

@ oldnotweak some people that did not want the paywall is due to the cut modders were having. though we were outnumbered by people that wanted it for free forever.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz entitlement works both ways. For nearly 2 decades we've had a community that had no issues with creating content without guaranteed monetary incentive.

Money absolutely corrupts thought process and this is a perfect case study of that social phenomina.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @ diyeath "A perfect case study" in what way? Modders get the option to be compensated and then get run off the internet? Yeah, those guys were so corrupt. Give me a freaking break.

And as for entitlement working both ways your example only illustrates the entitlement of the userbase more so, just because something has been free for the longest time, doesn't mean it has to forever, expecting that it must is pretty entitled I'd say.

icanhazmodspls wrote: @ ChizFoShiz. Yes i am entitled to some consumer rights. Firstly if i pay for a mod you can't guarantee it won't break my game as mods are inherently unstable with the game and especially with each other. Given that the majority of users use multiple mods that is rather important don't you think?

Second if i get a refund i want it to be in real money not steam monopoly money. These are basic rights as consumer so yes entitlement works both ways.

Lastly paid mods could only work if there was some form of quality control from steam, an area in which they are notoriously lacking in.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz corrupting thought process is different than being corrupt. Very, very different. The only ones I'd truly consider corrupt are the ones who took down free mods to host them for money on steam. People like chesko are not corrupt in any visible way.

I'm basing my opinions off of emperical data collected over nearly 2 decades. That system worked fine and very, very few people complained. In fact the only one of note that I can remember is Locaster. So when you say that bringing up the fact that entitelment goes both ways shows even more entitlement I can't help but laugh because you're showing more entitlement. Its a gigantic fallicious loop perpetuated by ignoring that we had a system which worked for a very long period of time before this whole steam fiasco.

I'm not against paid mods as much as I'm against paid mods that mod authors couldn't possibly hope to support enough to justify the price tag. We all know that singular mod authors can't support the mods properly and that's fine, we're talking about potentially tens of thousands of users vs one poor guy trying to deal with all the bug reports and whatnot. But without the proper support it's not right to sell your product and we can see this in the quality of the paid mods, most of them were horrific quality with only a very select few being of good quality.

I think that you should sit down and consider all the moving pieces and chronological order of events in order to form a reasonable opinion.

I personally am in favor of a more agressive approach to donations, I really don't mind if there's a big fat "donation" button at the top of the description, blinking away in obnoxious seizure-enducing strobe effects because there's no implied warranty involved (which is a legal thing which modders would be subjecting themselves to and thus opening a can of legal worms).

Uranium - 235 wrote: "The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense."

The only entitlement here is coming from you. Mod-makers are volunteers. They have ALWAYS been volunteers. Volunteering by definition means you shouldn't expect fiscal rewards for your work. Nothing about this relationship changed when you personally decided to make mods... unless you somehow feel that YOUR mods are worth more than those made by people whose creations predate yours?

You people knew the score when you started making mods. If you weren't okay with working without payment, then you shouldn't have made mods.

The fact that you're calling mod-users 'entitled'... man, maybe it's for the best that a lot of you are leaving. Good to see everyone show their true colors here. Nobody is making you make mods. If you think we OWE you for your work, then you are in the wrong business. I don't OWE you anything any more than the homeless OWE the people who volunteer to work at a soup kitchen.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @icanhazmodspls Never said anything about you not having rights as a consumer, for some of you I'm sure it IS a genuine concern over refund policies and content policing, but for the majority opinion it only takes a 30 second scan down any other outlet of discussion for this game to see the popular opinion is that mods and modders aren't worth it.

I've said this elsewhere but I'll say it again here, the system could have been changed based on feedback, refund policies can be altered, revenue distribution can be renegotiated, content policing can be provided and proven over time.

Lastly, of course I can't guarantee a plugin will work in tandem with any other plugins you want to run, no more so than Bethesda can guarantee your game will run once you throw 150 mods into it.

With a refund policy that could potentially have been changed to an acceptable system in your eyes though, would it not be a platform worth having?

@ ChizFoShiz now you need to consider implied warrany as it's a legal term which is applied when you charge money for a product.

[TakedaSun]

It might have been more in this and the role which ever one has played. Although it looks like victory day in reality the casualties were big. The community has lost or get in quarrel and dispute with people who didn't deserve it, who have been unfortunately in the wrong timing of the events. A damage on the reliability about all has been altered. So anything that is dividing a community is the worst and the "innocent people" who have fallen in these grey days have suffered.

 

A testing condition planned long way back on 2012 has revealed that many want to earn in back of others. So the time for rebuilding has started and all of us must do the best to help.

 

In the name of Talos rebuild Skyrim.

 

p.s. Read about the origin of Talos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos

[Leavhon]

In response to post #24746229. #24746549, #24746804, #24747049 are all replies on the same post.

Woodclaw wrote:

Azradun wrote: Chesko is no hero. He tried to sell a mod knowing it was based on somebody else's work and thought "eh, maybe nobody will catch me at this". Does that sound ethical to you (even if he was assured it was legal)? He also deleted my comment about using FNIS, so I have reasons to believe he wasn't acting in good faith at all.

So Chesko trying to profit from someone else's work makes him a hero according to you? :P

As for "entitlement" - you are perfectly ok with users paying 4 TIMES the price just to satisfy Bethesda and Valve's coffers, I am not. That's not about giving modders back. It is not justice. This was a scam, pure and simple. Should modders be paid for their work? Why not. But should Valve and Bethesda be paid 3 times more from the user's pockets? No way in hell.

Damn you too :P

icanhazmodspls wrote: You can't really compare TF2 hats with skyrim mods. Valve helps integrate TF2 mods in the game thus ensuring quality control. skyrim mods in that regard are way more complex and therefore unstable.

If steam and bethesda want to try paid mods in the future i think they should help mod-authors help make their mods more compatible with the base game therefore ensuring quality control and consumer confidence.

Plus steam needs a better refund policy.

Woodclaw wrote: @Azradun

I wasn't trying to imply that Chesko did no wrong and I do agree with you that his behaviour on the whole "Art of the Catch" deal was fishy to begin with, nor I would be willing to pay 75% of the price to Valve and Bethesda. I asked both Isoku and Chesko on the subject and told them that getting only 25% with a transfer limit of 100$ meant that they were likely not to see a penny in quite a long time. You said this was a scam, I agree. As you said I'm more than willing to give a modder is due as long as I'm sure that he's the one who get it in the end.
My intent with this post was just to voice my opinion on how the community (or at least a part of it) behaved.

(we'll see each other in Oblivion then :P )



@icanhazmodspls

All points I agree with.

You talk about Elianora, but you must read her opinion about this question:

http://geekdominthenorth.net/blog/on-monetisation-of-mods-my-official-0-02/

(Official site of Elianora)

[Naznaczony]

Victory!