sisterof

Oh it wasn't about it being your fault. It was Vilkas being Vilkas. You were already a member of the Inner Circle, not just some runt who just joined. The game lets us rise in rank too fast, so that gives us the sensation of "I just got here and I'm your leader already", but try to see it as a more gradual process. At this point, you were already someone trusted, and close to the Harbinger. And you were out with Aela doing missions that Kodlak disapproved of. But again, it's only Vilkas dealing with loss in his stubborn, fiery way. While Farkas, the big guy, just sits in silence. As for being in their headquarters... That's probably the issue. They were all drunk. :dry: And didn't the city guard notice a pack of heavily armed people marching in?

Oh I had completely forgotten about the Dragon Age comics and novels. You're quite right - they do run over the game and introduce their own unyielding lore. I think I ignored them because most fans seem to think that the games have priority over the books, while in Star Wars is the contrary - I remember seeing some pretty heated debates on forums about both games, in the DA we would have "well, the novels are an AU like every player can have one" while in SW it was more along the lines of "omfg this is canon u so stoopid it was in da book" . I'm trying right now to find David Gaider's comments on the whole issue of canon. If you come across anything of the sort, I'd appreciate it. Mass Effect's ending was such a bad trip. I haven't played the third game yet because of monetary/computational woes, but I couldn't avoid the spoilers - ended up watching the three endings. Are you talking about the original ending or the expanded ones? Also, I'll stop talking about it here. I was just yesterday reading the forum rules and "posting about unrelated matters in a thread" counts as spam. So next time I'll just pm you, if you don't mind. :biggrin: And so, to save this post for being complete spam.... Uh.... OLOL Stormcloaks RULEZ. Just kidding. I actually have a question. Does anyone know why in the CreationKit we have a "friends" list for each character, and Ulfric's lists an Argonian? I cannot check right now but I think it was Scouts-Many-Marshes, which makes little sense as he's quite glad to see Ulfric dead. Regardless of who it was (and maybe the relationship level was in fact "enemy" and I misread), I find it strange that they included it as Ulfric doesn't interact with many characters. He never leaves the palace at all except for the final battle.

skyrimconfessions made me remember one - seeing Farkas sitting quietly beside Kodlak's body after his murder by the Silver Hand. It's not a "heart touching" moment in a nice and cuddly way, though. It felt pretty sad when my Dragonborn (before he even knew he was such) arrived at the stairs and saw two of the Companions with weapons unsheated, and stormed into Jorrvaskr to find Kodlak dead. Vilkas was all restless and aggressive asking where the hell the Dragonborn was that wasn't there to protect the Harbinger, and Farkas was just sitting there like a lost puppy.

Another user was having the same issue, maybe this will help you: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/945880-at-the-summit/ The user was having a conflicting mod. But if that's not it, I suggest you look into the link I gave. If the battle is too hard, just toggle godmode and let it happen as it should - Miraak gets the Dragon souls, argues with the Dragons for a bit and so on. Then, let him get to the central pool. Hermaeus Mora should say something in the moment Miraak's health drops for the last time. If that doesn't happen, you can try advancing the quest like the link to UESPwiki suggests. Using the console to kill him will do no good - it's a heavily scripted battle, and you never kill him per se, not even in the end. I suggest you try disabling every mod before just making the quest move with cheats, though, because the dialogue is pretty neat. Dragonborn's mainquest is one of my favorites. :happy:

The other heroes were hardly demi-gods as the Dragonborn is. In Oblivion you weren't even the hero as much as the hero's henchman. And in Morrowind you (maybe) were the reincarnation of an important warchief, not a supernaturally strong individual by any chance. The Dragonborn is quite above any other hero we've played as. Maybe Bethesda has written itself into a corner with giving us such a powerful protagonist. :ermm:

It would be pretty cool to have the Aldmeri Dominion as the dominant force and a whole game devoted to overthrowing them, but I don't know how the developers would deal with the Dragonborn's presence. How would they explain that the great hero of Skyrim just stood aside as the Dominion took over? That makes me think that they'll have to resolve the issue in a DLC.

I found him by walking near the shore for a few minutes. He always spawns there, near Broken Tusk Mine. Also, I get this vague feeling that the OP likes some faction in Fallout pretty passionately. :whistling:

You know, I have avoided the Civil War like the plague with all characters before (that died due to lack of my interest). Out of the three ones I fell in love with and kept playing for longer, two were Dark Brotherhood assassins and by definition couldn't care less about the whole affair. The third is my Dragonborn, and for a long while he avoided taking sides for feeling they're both sub-par. When I decided there was no running away from it and that my character wouldn't stand for another year of bloodshed and would take a side, I begun investigating more - and I was indeed inclined to play Imperial, believe it or not, for all the arguments we know and for the "the Empire was founded and kept by the chosen of Akatosh". The first time I was swayed from that ambivalence was when I watched a few playthroughs on Youtube and saw when Tullius goes along the lines of "I'll settle for nothing less than execution, I'll take his head on a pike to the Imperial City". That's just disrespectful to a fellow veteran and a proud man who's doing what he believes is right. I took me some more two months of reading around the arguments of both sides and playing bits of both questlines to make my mind, but the character of Ulfric (and his voice!) have such a strong presence. I wish they had made Tullius more multidimensional too. With Ulfric you have all the complexity of a man who is haunted, who is proud and ambitious (arguably to a fault), who is prejudiced, and also brave and heroic at the same time. With Tullius we have just a dutiful, stern soldier. Characters make the story! It hurt my stone heart to humiliate Ulfric. Revan is canonically a man in all the comics, romantically involved with Bastila. The Exile is canonically female. This puts Knights of the Old Republic in a very different level than Mass Effect, Dragon Age and The Elder Scrolls. It's their story to write, but I admire DA and TES's effort to expand lore without stepping over your choices. I don't mind that they do so by being vague. A huge part of computer RPG goes in our head, not in the screen. Skyrim has quite a hare-brained script in terms of dialogue and character development, but it becomes very rich by giving us the freedom to add to it through imagination. With DA II, you have nothing destroying the Hero of Ferelden as you made him, quite the contrary - you can import a savegame and have the game mention choices you made. With KotOR II you can stablish Revan's gender and alignment, but it's completely thrown out the window with the comics and novels. In my heart, Revan shall always be female and of dubious alignment, and the Exile a man and a pure heroic and archetypal Jedi. I play as male in 100% of games that offer the choice, being a woman KotOR I was a quantum fluctuation - so the fact that I enjoyed Revan's story as a female character so much is reason enough for me to discard the canon. :D There are too few female Sith Lords of relevance. Darth Revan fits the bill perfectly. In Vikings, did you get to the point of the offered threesome? I grinned like a maniac at that scene. XD Lagertha (had to check the spelling) is delightful. I like seeing how people are so childish and passionate in that series. Though it upsets me that the characters are very shallow too - the show relies more on the sheer awesomeness of Vikings and their good actors than on character development. Even the overall plot is far from epic. But I'm really enjoying it too. And I think I said this before, but I really dig the villain. His wife is too stereotypical "sensual evil woman", though. I'm enjoying the fact they aren't overdoing the sex and violence, and keeping the historical inaccuracies to a minimum (like the landlord being almighty). I just wish the people would show more layers than the pure archetypes they have been representing so far.

Why a mediator? That would be necessary if there was fighting going on, though I see none. And about "Imperial supporters coming here to meet a wall of Stormcloaks" (that made me giggle irl :D ), we're not asking for arguments that Stormcloaks consider flawless and must bow to - but rather any argument so that those synopsis Lithium Flower has been organizing will be good representations of both sides. And I still think that once those two are done, we could get working on each side answering to the points' brought up by the other. I think that if this was done correctly with proper aid from both sides, we'd get documents roughly the same size. I do believe Bethesda wrote the Civil War in a complete gray-and-gray morality, so we should always have Imperials and Stormcloaks who are both aware of all the points of both sides, can acknowledge them, and still choose their own (those who pick a side and passionately try to the make the other into a villain do not count). It's a great technique they used, to make all interpretation of good and bad fall to the player (or to his character, if he has several). The developers avoid defining things too much - in the making of, they openly admit they avoided defining what being Dragonborn means, so the different kinds of players would all get kicks out of their own versions of the story. The magic of TES for me is this - having the freedom to play whomever you want, and not have lore forced down your throat later on contradicting the interpretations you made. Unlike, as I mentioned before, Knights of the Old Republic, where a female Revan is thrown out the window and so on. Of course you have lore, but it doesn't get into details to the point of invalidating your own headcanon. So in that way of not defining the things too much, they didn't define the Civil War either. And what great way to make players still be involved years after the game's release - we're still here debating! :D I have seen an increasing number of people here (though not in this thread) saying that they also believe that Bethesda did not make any side good or with a better chance of victory against the Thalmor. That pleases sisterof greatly. That is the point when we leave the Disney-level plot behind, with its clearly cut villains and heroes, and go to better developed, more mature fiction. As a person, not as my character, I clearly have a greater liking for the Stormcloaks - and for anything that de-centralizes power. But I have one Imperial character and I use what we discuss here to make me more able to put myself in his shoes.

Precisely my point. Nazism has several points that distinguish it from other racist movements, the leader cult is extremely relevant in their belief. As an example, one of the things they preached was basically "the population as a whole does not have to understand what must be done or what is going on, they just must blindly trust that the Leader knows". So I still think the comparison even with the Aldmeri Dominion is very flawed. The Dominion doesn't have genocide either. They have war and kidnappings, but no concentration camps at all. There is a certain strong connection between the two groups but it's far from a direct "real world to fantasy" translation. The Stormcloaks have nothing to do with Nazism either. Absolutely nothing. I'm not that familiar with history in general to offer better comparisons, but the elements of the Stormcloak Rebellion are much more aligned with revolutionary movements. I would look at the American colonies in our real world, also at Scotland and at Russia, before looking at Germany. They don't seek to form an empire and conquer, nor drive away different races and creeds. They are defending the structure of their homeland as they understand it, in the face of overwhelming opposition from a nation with imperialistic tendencies (the Dominion). They aren't attacking - they are standing their ground.

You can edit your post to correct typos and such, bettsyman1. There is a bug where the Dragons that guard World Walls that you have already defeated respawn (maybe as a different kind, but in the same place) and don't give a soul upon death. That could be just that. Also, have you tried with absolutely no mods activated, including unofficial patches?

I think we may have some sort of divine intervention again in a future game, with an Emperor chosen by the Gods, like before. Politically and economically, it has no reason to exist anymore, but the Empire was never about those things - it was always about the Divines giving someone the power to unify the people. As a mundane institution, without having anything to do with the magical forces of TES series, there is no reason for an empire just like there isn't in real life. But since I don't think TES will ever leave the setting of medieval high fantasy, with kings and such, I don't think they will (or should) go through a political revolution like the real world has. Besides, the lore is all about almighty beings, mythology and magic. They can use it to justify an eternal "medieval" structure. Emperors in real life often used claims of connection to the divine to secure their authority after all. In TES it just happens to be true. :biggrin: Or we may have several kingdoms again, one for each province or the like. But I think there will be some kind of unification or alliance. I confess I quite like the idea of independent kingdoms. It also brings more chances for racial/economical struggles. And it's nice not having this single power make all decisions with the provinces having little power to argue.

It's okay, Kayyyleb. My Khajiit assassin was delighted to have such a wicked woman for a wife. And I don't even have a dick to blame (though he has). She's perfect for a dominating, manipulative, abusive Dark Brotherhood assassin. She's always gonna be hating herself and doubting her decision, so she's vulnerable. And she'll always look at him, her "hero", with devotion because he knows her secret and still "loves" her, or at least won't tell anyone about it. As for the topic, I don't remember any heart-warming moments. :/

I bet they would be very, very confused in this weird world where nothing they stand for and shapes them as characters exist. :P

The game is SO much better when you roleplay and really let yourself get into it. When you just play mechanically, the game gets so repetitive and annoying. My rules are largely dependent on which character I'm using. I try to have a clear notion of their do's and dont's but also leave room for them to change their minds or act on impulse - people do it all the time. I don't like that hostiles that wield end up attacking you again. If someone asks for mercy, they should take their goddamn mercy and run with their tails between their legs. But I like Dyflinn432's idea of at least letting them on their feet before striking again. I can see my Dovahkiin doing it, though not my Listener. Shall adopt it! Another issue I have is how hard it is to level up higher than.... lvl 35 or so. I refuse to do any quest that my character wouldn't, so you end up running out of options. Of course you can level up doing chores instead of quests (training and so on) but it's not the same. I also don't level any skill that the character doesn't have a clear reason to use. I'm quite against what two other posters do - "perfection" in all skills and "must-do-all-quests!". So I must repeat - glory to single player games forever. :D

My only issue with vanilla houses is that I'm big on collecting weapons and armour. So I just add mannequins and weapon racks myself. I like having them scattered around the house as decoration, not in a single "trophy room". I would love to see a mod with a museum that you get to furnish. *hint hint* As for modded houses, I like Riverside Lodge. Nice, lore-friendly and simple. I find that most others have more of a "for gamers" than "for your character" feel about them - they have extremely organized rooms with useful things like alchemy and so on, without much "soul" to them, so it just looks like a bunch of activators you click in a mechanical way. Not immersive at all. I like houses that feel more real, less "optimized" and more cluttered. As for size... nothing that you wouldn't find another NPC living in. Only Jarls and Harkon have castles - and the Jarls have a small living space, most of the place is for other uses. Palaces aren't commonplace in Skyrim, so I find them very non-lore-friendly. It all comes down to how much of Skyrim you want to feel untouched, how much of its native feel you want. As cool as a castle in Sovngarde or a flying ship is, there's nothing in the game that allows their existence. But that's the wonder of single player games - do what thou wilt. :wink: (While all the others stand aside and judge quietly.)

There's someone watching us here? Now I feel embarrassed... :biggrin: @Lithium Flower: Great job with the two documents! Can't think of anything to add to either, though we could have more Imperial supporters to provide references and such as the Stormcloak doc is way better organized in that regard. IMPERIALS, JOIN US IN THIS QUEST! More Psyduck for maximum attention grabbing powers: :psyduck: What do you guys think of also making a counter-argument doc for each of them? So we could have either side answering to the other's claims. And then we could ask a moderator to stick it. And then we could get to the mead hall and do a proper pagan celebration. Or is it too much work? (No reason to dismiss the party too, though.)

<after finishing the post> I just realized how rude this post is sounding - please, don't let the poor communication level of text-only fool you, I'm not being aggressive! :biggrin: Ok, now to the answer. I also don't get why so many people like to connect Hitler to Ulfric. Maybe it's just poor understanding of what the Nazi issue was. Or maybe a blind attempt at demonizing an antagonist to make your own side more heroic. You can't even compare the Aldmeri Dominion to the Nazi regime - you don't have the figure of a leader, the leader cult, the mass elimination of what is considered "inferior races". And most of all - Summerset Isle was not subjected to the utterly broken economy and weak politics that Germany was in the time that led to WWII. There is a whole background that leads to the rise of the Nazi that simply does not happen with the Aldmeri Dominion. Calling every single racial supremacy movement "just like Hitler's" is a gross simplification. So if you can't even trace that connection with the Dominion, let alone the Stormcloaks! There is much, much more to the Nazi movement than mild racism and charismatic leadership. The Stormcloaks aren't as racist as they are largely disregarding of other races. They don't believe other races inferior as much as they care for Nords first and foremost. I'm not saying the claims of racism are completely invalid - they are just much milder than the High Elves'. Remember Morrowind and how the Dunmer treated "Outlanders"? That's exactly the same thing. Not so much xenophobia as just a very unwelcoming reaction to foreigners. The only place with strong racial tension is Windhelm, and Ulfric does disregard the issue and turns a blind eye, but remember that the city wasn't even opened to foreigners before Ulfric and his father's time. There was also no "false advertising". Talos worship was banned, "heretics" are tortured and killed, the Empire is using Skyrim's resources while letting the Thalmor run free in it and not making any plan to counter attack even after two decades. Also... "turned their followers into extreme racists"? I think maybe you were playing a Thalmor, not a Stormcloak. :biggrin: They don't say "Nords are a superior race, we should take over the world", they say "Skyrim is homeland to the Nords, no Elves will dictate our culture and politics".

I think the threat of a huge common enemy does wonders for diplomacy. And I point yet again that Hammerfell has succeeded all by itself. If the provinces won't ally to attack the Aldmeri Dominion, Skyrim can at least withstand it. @TheLoreSeeker: I've stated this a thousand times before, so forgive the redundancy in case you had already seen this argument - it makes no sense arguing what the right side is, because there is none. There's two different approaches to a problem, with two different outcomes in case of victory against the Dominion (unified Empire or independent Skyrim). Each path has it's own downsides. It's all a matter of what you are willing to give up, and for what, and what to you expect to see once the major war is done and the dust settled. Even more than that - it's not just about convincing me or you or any player - it's about making a choice for a character (or several, if you like to roleplay different ones). You can gather all arguments that will make your Stormcloak character a totally loyal Stormcloak, and also arguments for your Imperial character a total Imperial. Because both sides have them with the same significance. And arguing our own standing, in our own view (not our characters') is as useless as arguing capitalism, communism and so on. I'm all for a discussion like this to go on and on, in depth and civilized. But in the end, at least to me, it's a way of firming my (multiple) characters' beliefs and better building their personalities. Not so much convincing myself or any player. There's intelligent people on both sides (and less bright ones too...), it would be sheer arrogance to assume that a whole percentage of the players is simply stupid and cannot see the good guy from the bad guy. Just as I find it naivety to assume there is a bad guy and a good guy to start with.

The game makes it very hard for a roleplayed character to reach a high level. If you stick to quests that make sense in the context of your character (instead of going Gamer Mode and just gathering every single title and power), you run out of levelling options not before long. Unless you have the patience of level up through tedious repetition of the same things.

I don't think Ulfric would choose his arse first either. Being proud, ambitious and arguably racist doesn't make him a villain - it makes him multidimensional. He would give his life for Skyrim, but he also won't settle for anything less than the mantle of High King. He disregards the pleas of non-Nords, but he also accepts anyone into the Stormcloaks once they show commitment to the cause. He is both entirely loyal to his brothers and sisters-in-arms, and cares deeply about the lives of his soldiers, but he also has a short temper with anything Dominion-related and is dismissive of all political/economical issues not directly related to the war. The Civil War is supposed to be a hard choice, with no "right" and "wrong". It's merely a matter of what you are willing to fight for, and at what price. It all comes down to what kind of world your character wants to see. Neither side is the villain. People keep expecting heroes to be flawless saints. There are no saints in a good story.

Remember Hammerfell stood against the Dominion alone, and prevailed. Cyrodiil would probably have a better chance if so much of their troops wasn't in Skyrim to begin with. They have all borders open. They should focus on that.

I think it's quite the contrary. Nothing is assumed about all those people being one and the same. At least not ingame (books, dialogue and such). That would mean invalidating a player's personal canon, and so far I don't remember in happening in TES. Edit: Not that I noticed, I mean. I would be very disappointed if there are ingame things that force a story upon a character you made in the past.

There is a quest in Markarth about secret Talos worshipping that disappears if you take the city for the Stormcloaks, for obvious reasons.

Is there any ingame source that says the Hero of Kvatch is Sheogorath? Because some players might have played Shivering Islands with a different character (like I did, cause my hero was a hero and my mad god was a mad god).