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Ah, bloody Thalmor. Thanks for the correction, mighty zog! I wonder what Elenwen would do since Tullius was obviously going to go through with the execution despite her calling him to the sidelines. She apparently gives up anyway and leaves - so it shows they aren't willing to go very far to keep Ulfric alive. Though they should, given their interest in the Civil War, even if it could continue without him. Once again, thank the Gods for Alduin! And with that, let me crash in utter exhaustion before I reach that point when you're too tired to sleep and end up spiralling into a vortex of madness. I'm sure everyone can relate. .... Right?

I encountered the brothers faaaar back when I first started playing Skyrim, still on my desktop that now is an ocean away. It's been several months since I returned to the game and I haven't seen them again, even though I walk around a lot both in the wilderness and roads. I never saw Babette outside the sanctuary. Torkild was very easy to find, he was

Thank the Gods for Alduin. :biggrin: Indeed, I don't think either Tullius or Ulfric are cowards - not even hypocrites. They both sound like they are truly doing what they believe is best and right. Tullius acting cowardly upon defeat and Ulfric getting self-righteous are just interesting aspects to their characters, imo, not defects per se. @TheLoreSeeker: I was wondering recently if Ulfric would know he was lied to during his torture. Unless they kept him imprisoned for long enough for him to lose track of time, upon his "escape" he would figure out the timing of his confession and the invasion of the Imperial City didn't match.

Where are people getting the idea the Thalmor were in Helgen to avoid Ulfric's execution? Elenwen is shown talking to Tullius but absolutely nothing is said about the affair - there's not a single mention of the Thalmor effectively interrupting the sentence, that's pure conjecture. They are indeed hoping the Civil War will drag on, but they're hardly willing to directly manipulate it. Or maybe they believe the rebellion will continue without Ulfric. "Dormant asset" means he's unaware of the situation, that things he do may be used for the Thalmor's advantage. He never worked with the Dominion. "Uncooperative" because he started striking directly at the Thalmor, becoming perhaps more trouble than he's worth for them, as now instead of simply diverging the Empire's forces he's also disrupting the Thalmor's plans.

Yes, they were shield-brothers during the war, along with Galmar. So they're fellow veterans. And the Dragonborn is powerful, but he's not an army. He cannot win against whatever just through awesomeness alone.

@RatcatcherOfKvatch: That's Bethesda playing safe. With such a huge game as Skyrim, with so much invested in it and potential for success, they avoided any kind of controversy. The most they ever had the balls to do openly in a main game was Arcade and Veronica in Fallout New Vegas, and it was terribly veiled. The player character only knew they were gay, but couldn't pursue a relationship with either. Sexuality in games only serves two purposes: cheap porn/eyecandy (e.g. God of War), or character development (e.g. Dragon Age). Skyrim doesn't offer either of those things, so it's not a terrain they're willing to tread. As for the Dragonborn defining people's sexuality... can you really blame them? There's a demi-god right there. Under Saarthal. Tending the Flames. Unfathomable Depths. Rise in the East. The Unrelenting Force. The Blade in the Dark. The Dragonborn Comes. :biggrin:

I don't know why they missed the opportunity to put children of other races in Hearthfire. That DLC was all about domestic life. Children and marriage options belonged right there. :confused:

@Kayyyleb: Galmar comes across as a specially bitter dude to me too. I do like him, and I find his lines hilarious - "That godless Emperor can shove his damn treaty into the steaming nether-reaches of my you-know-where.", remarkable that he wants the Emperor to shove the treaty into his nether-reaches, not the Emperor's. Freudian slip, perhaps? :biggrin: And the whole colorful description made me rofl for a whole minute the first time I heard it. Steaming. Anyway, I believe he represents all that most people blame on Ulfric. The single most racist line I ever heard from any Stormcloak was said by him - he goes "I'm a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That's a fact. A fact I'm proud of. There's no shame in that. Read your history." and cuts off the dialogue abruptly. It is the cradle of Men alright, but not only of Men, and the Falmer where there before. He also seems to be faaaar more reckless, bloodthirsty and fanatical than Ulfric. I remember talking to a friend as I played the Civil War the first time and watched thosescenes with them both, and my comment was along the lines of "Oh god, Galmar goes on and on about how he wants to crush and chew on Imperials and Ulfric is all like.... ok ok but am I still loved? Do I look good in this crown? Are you sure I'm still fashionable and charming? Was my speech good? Are you sure? Really?" like some insecure boy. I don't see him as a villain, but he's quite borderline extremist. Still, I don't see any Imperials or even Thalmor being tortured in dungeons or having their corpses on cages display outside forts. Ulfric never looked like that much of an aggressive warmongerer, he's far more political and careful. Even in his way of talking - when not throwing a fit because of Thalmor presence or the Dragonborn's inefficiency, he talks with the calm and solemnity of High Hrothgar, something Vladimir Kulich is great at. He also seems to keep rooting for the Dragonborn like a secret fanboi while Galmar is completely distrustful and suspicious. Are you sure you hate reckless barbarians that much? That's what Skyrim's culture is mostly about, being based on Vikings and all. It's part of the atmosphere. The civilized, cosmopolitan and gracefully corrupted Cyrodiil is indeed quite different. Skyrim was made to be cold and harsh (with its own brand of corruption, of course), from the scenery to the conflicts and the people. I understand a more Cyrodiilic character being outraged at the brutality, but wouldn't a Nord feel right at home? I find some charm in this feral side of people. Your point about being a character development issue or oversight is quite important too. How can we even debate something to its full extent if the developers themselves not only give us little information, but also contradicting things that are not for the sake of ambiguity but purely lack of attention? I often feel that the players engage in thinking far more than the scriptwriters did. Of course this is TES and we know how deep the caracter will be, but it would be nice if they gave more attention to that side of the story. Their level of commitment to plot/characters is quite unfortunate.

"Default" and "lore" are quite different things. They need to pick a face to put in a trailer, unless they made one for each race - and nobody cares that much. How would they cater to all the players that are not playing the "default" male Nord barbarian? A new DLC that can only be played by a certain percentage of gamers? Honestly, I think you must be trolling, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think Irileth is secretly Balgruuf's Dominatrix, and he loves her untender ministrations. Ahem, I mean... @Kayyyleb: Those are very good points, thanks for sharing. I still think it's understandable that Ulfric wanted to show his army's power, and to let his subjects participate in the revolution instead of sitting idly as he goes for more glory alone. His soldiers are always ranting about wanting to be in the front lines, and Galmar repeatedly says the Stormcloaks are the "meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer" and want to battle even more than Ulfric does. I liked the points you brought up, though. Ulfric is faaaar from a saint, and taking Whiterun was indeed a very bitter moment, even if there were so many Legionnaires amongst the city guard. I'm curious on your opinion about Ulfric being extremely reluctant, though... Since you pointed out that he cares for nothing but glory and power, why does Galmar need to keep pushing him to act, and why is he always moping around about having to send soldiers to their death?

Agreed with mikeprok17. Dragons as depicted in other lores are great as they are, but TES did something quite admirable by introducing them without re-using the same mold Tolkien established. The Dovah are unique in several aspects, and the story of them teaching the Voice to mortals stems from real life mythology of dragons teaching humans to speak. Their status as immortal, timeless beings also makes them impressive when compared to the beastly, lizard-minded ones of other universes. Their anatomy is fantastic too - I love the fact that they have five limbs instead of the usual seven. The way they walk mimics bats, making them look brutal and somewhat out of their element on ground, while when flying they have the grace of swimming serpents. My issue with them is only the lack of unique personalities and more quests involving them instead of simply random encounters with a hostile creature. The mod Wyrmstooth that we have here is amazing, it's exactly the kind of quest Bethesda should have introduced - a Dragon with his agenda, with plans and strategy that don't consist solely of brute force, and who wants his piece of power and territory regardless of what happened to Alduin. When he "died", the world belonged to the Dov, so when he woke up he could see no other way for the world to function - with or without Alduin. Play it sometime, it's a great quest! By the way.... I lol'd. Thanks for that. And agreed.

For someone to try to marry you (man or woman), you have to be wearing the Amulet of Mara. If you don't wear the Amulet while talking to them, they will not speak of marriage. Nobody will want to marry you if you don't wear the Amulet.

Hm, I don't recall the dialogue completely, but the "a man, not a boy" part isn't Balgruuf talking about himself and how he won't back down? I think was "I am not a king, but neither am I boy"... Really can't remember. Is it said anywhere in game that he tried to learn the Voice? All I remember is that he, like many Nords, made the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar. Ulfric choosing to send his army doesn't strike me as cowardice in the least - not only it was the first major battle for the Stormcloaks, but also Ulfric doesn't have free pass around cities anymore. He could be assassinated anywhere outside Windhelm, which I think is the sole reason why he doesn't engage in any battle other than that for Solitude.

Frea has the most annoying way of talking in her eternal monotone. It somehow manages to be worse than Serana's teen bitching. Between the two, I choose loneliness.

Tell me again how Skyrim may have an Argonian High King, and how future games will address this monumental turn of events... Or how Ulfric came back to life after so many players delivered him his backside and left him naked on the main hall's table.

Today my Breton was naked because of reasons and had to take a carriage. The driver greeted him by saying something along the lines of "You have been a good friend, I know it's not much but take this as a sign of my appreciation", and gave him a set of merchant's clothes. :biggrin:

Balgruuf's housecarl disagrees, however. She, a Dunmer that understands Nord tradition far more than any Imperial has shown to, says something along the lines of "He won't come himself, he already proved his strength, now he'll want to prove the strength of his army." I'm also very impressed with her in several aspects, she's an awesome character. She advices Balgruuf from the beginning to stand up and take a stance, unlike his other adviser - when he suggests waiting to see, she cuts him off with "prey waits". Now that's a Nord Dunmer!

Funny this thread appeared right when I first started using Vilja, and she managed to fall victim to spiders in the span of a few hours. I should have figured she wasn't cut for battle in the moment she started worrying about freckles while we were surrounded by angry Thalmor agents. RIP Vilja. I shall forever remember the lesson you taught me - a Bard's place is not in the wilderness.

Well, that's solved, folks. Let's all go home. :wink: I prayed to each of the Divines, Talos included obviously, for a chance to show Ulfric the dossier on him and start a quest to secretly unify Stormcloaks and Imperials to beat the Thalmor in their own game of subversion, but alas! None of them heard my plea. Rooting both out is just wrong, though. Both sides have excellent points, and huge weaknesses, but regardless of what one thinks of their leadership, the foot soldier is just fighting for his ideals or for his job. Our quest here is to bring forth the pros and cons of each side, which I still defend are weighted about the same, though my "there is no right side" stance is swaying a bit lately as I replay a few missions of both sides. Another important thing this thread provides is a background for both Imperial and Stormcloak characters, because every player should have at least one of each regardless of their personal preferences, in my not-so-humble opinion, and should have enough arguments to make the character believable for themselves. So it's not an useless debate. Bethesda didn't give the option because lol eff u. It will be part of the lore that the Empire becomes weakened, be it by internal conflicts or complete dissolution, as it has been building up in the past two games. Resolution to this crumbling of the Empire is something we'll only get in a DLC or in a next game (and may the Gods forbid that we get some ridiculous scheme like having a game set in the past). So, it's not in their interests to solve the issue quickly and let us drink our mead peacefully reminiscing our glorious and tumultuous past.

http://www.sidhtech.com/news/skyrim-hammerfell-redguard-dlc/1001953/ I lol'd. And then I wept. Too cruel of a joke!

I think the woman is lying. First, because she tried to seduce me (and almost succeeded, I confess), second because she says she was chased out of Hammerfell by the Thalmor and hello? Thalmor having power in Hammerfell?, third because if she was indeed being chased by the Thalmor, we'd have their agents after her, not some mercenaries from a province that is not under their power. I could be wrong and it could be a totally ambiguous quest, though. That was just the impression I got. And I was indeed a bit butthurt for her seductive demeanor, specially because it got my hopes up of finding a partner with a story for my lonely Dragonborn. She used me! :confused:

Saying Torygg had a "diplomatic mentality is a bit of a stretch. Is there any point that shows Torygg having any mentality? I get the impression he simply sat on his throne and let stuff happen without ever getting involved in anything other than his queen. He was urged to stand up against the WGC and for several years did nothing. About the duel, I still think Ulfric decided to start with the Thu'um simply because it is something that someone of strong will can resist, showing that Torygg had no willpower to be a High King. Being much younger also makes no difference, Torygg was an adult with a beard and a wife and, most importantly, a crown. His supposedly excessive youth is actually an advantage against a middle aged man in terms of strength and endurance. If the High King refused to act, preserved the status quo and gave no indication of doing anything - what was left for a Jarl to do but to challenge his rule in the old way? I find it sad that Torygg was such a big fanboy of Ulfric, and it's a pity, but he was no child. However, I'm not sure Ulfric tried to get Torygg to act enough times before resorting to the challenge. Torygg himself doesn't show any initiative, which is troubling in itself. Also, I don't get this "Ulfric thinks the stronger must rule". He does say repeatedly that the High King must be strong - in motivation, willpower and arms. But, to me, it never sounded like he thought that it was like a wolf pack with everyone biting each other until the physically stronger emerged. He's not even that much a warchief - Galmar has that role. Edit: Just saw mighty zog's post. So, @mighty zog: there's one hell of an abyss between "able to defend its border" and "able to march across land and sea for an invasion".

You specifically seek him out because his goons keep going after you relentlessly if you don't. That's motivation enough, and coming from his side. :P His plan was indeed going on before he knew of the Last Dragonborn, my point is that he becomes your enemy in the moment he notices your soul is powerful and that of a Dovah, and so he doesn't simply let you go when you go to the Summit of Apocrypha. Dragonborn gives us a Disney-style villain with little motivation other than the absolute joy of being evil, I quite agree with you on that (though I still find him awesome as far as Skyrim goes). But unfortunately TES is filled with antagonists like that, that's not just Dragonborn's issue. It's always about beating up some egocentric dude with a bad case of megalomania - probably the Civil War is the only one without a Big Bad. (Btw, I find his clothes uber stylish.)

That's the whole point, Relativelybest. The only reason you face Miraak is because he grows convinced that the Last Dragonborn is powerful and his soul will help him escape Apocrypha. He ruled over Solstheim with an iron fist and would do so again, but his main motivation has always been simply freedom - first from the Dragons, and then from Hermaeus Mora. He is, in a way, just a guy wanting to get home and do his stuff without strings attached. If he did escape, though, I think he'd become quite a problem. He seems to have extreme ego issues, and given his history and the amount of dead Dragons at his footsteps, it's probably understandable. :biggrin: And I completely agree with Kayyyleb, The Elder Scrolls suffers from very very veeeeery cheap writing as far as RPGs go. People had this argument before on another thread. The main plot of a story matters little (we even used the example that LotR is all about throwing a ring in a volcano through the power of friendship), the development is what matters. The "in betweens" of plot and character growth. Bethesda offers none of these things. It does give us some starting points to imagine a story ourselves, but that's it. The characters are mostly unidimensional archetypes. Dawnguard was extremely disappointing to me. Having to use a bow was completely "wtf" as my Dragonborn rarely used one and Harkon kept teleporting too quickly and too far for melee. The lack of option to take any of the Snow Elves as permanent allies was sucky too. The whole quest felt very detached from the Dragonborn's overall legend, but it still doesn't suit a non-Dragonborn character because of Durnehviir's presence (and damn, I love that guy to bits). Also Harkon sounded so totally inane with his Disney-villain stance, wanting to turn the whole Nirn into a dark wasteland with only undead (not to mention that blocking the main connection between Mundus and Aetherius surely should have other side-effects). I tried really hard to like Serana, as my Dragonborn is lacking in allies with stories of their own, but Gods.... is that a millenia old woman behaving like a 15yo spoiled teen with daddy issues? I had to tell her a few times I am not her surrogate father! And in the end I wasn't that upset she's not even marriageable - my character would feel like some dirty old man if he hooked up with a brat like that. :ermm: