Tamujiin

totally get you there Jim_uk. Just a repetative cycle. Lend, sell, borrow, buy. I think that idea has been around since money came into existance.

i was refering to the U.S.A. there dazzerfong. We are getting fat and lazy, as a nation, i suppose our technology does that to us.

A sign of the times, by allowing a communist country to own banks in our country, which is good. The things that are going on though, that are quite the contrary to such things, like our navy shifting to that part of the world. To "prepare for a Chinese threat", or the war rhetoric from China because we owe them 2 trillion dollars, they "blab" about attacking us. Cs perhaps you are right. I forget sometimes we are the most over weight land in the world, and such. Give it a few years though, China will out do us :) I have nothing agaisnt China, i just have strong views, as to if we start doing things like this, where is it going to end?

http://news.yahoo.com/fed-clears-chinas-first-us-bank-takeover-012927575.html This is going to be a sign of the times. I doubt during the Cold War this would have happened. I will not be using a bank that is associated with China. China is the Largest consumer of oil, and the largest exporter in the world. A lot of crazy things are happening, like our naval fleet moving into the area, "to defend" against, "a possible Chinese threat". Yet here we are allowing Chinese banks into our country, just another way china can get the upper hand on the worlds economy in my view. It has to me, many similarities to the causes leading up to the Attack on pearl Harbor. I have a huge opinion on China, that i will not discuss yet, because i do not want to blatantly insult that country itself here, I do believe China has a right to do these things, but i am also afraid of what could become of it, being that China shares certain views that don't fit well together, with the idea's of freedom the U.S.A "supposedly" share. But i am interested in the "mature" point of view of you all.

Excuse me, how do you not know if "we' 'had/had not" family members that died during "these wars". My freedom of speech, may not apply here, but my freedom of speech applies in my country, i have a right to "complain" if i want to, so do most people in the free world. I would hope personally that people do not judge, by what is written in a forum. Ecxpecially one that is based on everybody's own opinion. Part of "debating" is having a mediator that keeps things on track.In a forum, If there is no immediate mediator, then people are left to use they're best judgment. I may not have the ability to reserve my right here to complain, but i will as it is my duty as a ctitzen of the U.S.A reserve my right to say how i feel about my governement. It is every citizens duty, to question they';re own government, and the job that they are doing. If you asserting that you have lost family in 'these' wars then don't be ambiguous about it. 'We' having been fighting for your right to speak for over 250 years..certainly speak away... but don't make inclusive assertions to a club that you 'may or may not be a member' of' unless you are ( in which case I retract my disdain and apologize), that is simply presumptuous and frankly offensive. I am just going to leave you guessing on that one......

Excuse me, how do you not know if "we' 'had/had not" family members that died during "these wars". My freedom of speech, may not apply here, but my freedom of speech applies in my country, i have a right to "complain" if i want to, so do most people in the free world. I would hope personally that people do not judge, by what is written in a forum. Ecxpecially one that is based on everybody's own opinion. Part of "debating" is having a mediator that keeps things on track.In a forum, If there is no immediate mediator, then people are left to use they're best judgment. I may not have the ability to reserve my right here to complain, but i will as it is my duty as a ctitzen of the U.S.A reserve my right to say how i feel about my governement. It is every citizens duty, to question they';re own government, and the job that they are doing.

Im pretty sure if we go to war in Iran, we are done as a nation. I am pretty sure if the U.N mandates it, and europe, nato, and hopefully russia and china backs something to prevent it, we wont go to war. Remember that "Obama" isn't the one that makes the choices, he wants to see bills made by the people that right them, to accomplish things, like bring buisnesses home, fire our industries back up. it is our house and senate that brings him these bills, and if he doesnt sign "anything" no matter how crap the ideas are, he isnt doing his job. This is for HeyYou, 30,000 dollars to every registered voter? I know at least half hat would probably end up on the black market drug trade. So we would just give half of it to criminals. Think about what our society 'does" and where that money would really go putting it in the hands of the people. Either back to the criminals, and technically "poof it is gone" or back to the 1% of the population that holds the money. i would not do it personally nor may you. but we are not everybody. Instead of attacking a guy that can obviously only lobby for his own health care plan, order death kills, speak common sense, and right his name, i think we should GET common sense, STAND UP and start attacking the rich people for hoarding cash. How many of that 1% have there hands in the oil trade? How much of that money could we use to create new renewable more efficient energy resources? Just food for thought.

So his main accomplishment is the kill order on something setup by the previous administration? His main challenges are fixing the over spending of the previous administration by spending twice as much as they did? Sounds like a winner. Well he is a whole helluva a lot better than a war monger or just another rich republican looking for fame, i can tell yah that. To get out of debt, you need to spend money, its called paying bills back and causing new forms of revenue because some turkey signed bills that sent our own buisnesses over seas.. And money well spent on job creation. One thing our society forgets is people are not "perfect" we have two choices here, another rich "dude" ( who cant sing ) in office who may just keep us at war, ( mitt romney ) or the guy who I personally think deserves another four years to finish the job ( obama ), and fix the crap bush got us into. If people were to march on the capital tomorrow effectivly and demand change, trust me i would be there, but this society fails to STAND UP and do something. Where i live, i have everything i need. I dont live in the city. I can survive and make sure my family survives when it hits the fan.... But yet again someone misconstruded what i said because they just assume im left or right..... When in all actuallity im neither, i don't care about "political views" what i want to see is some freakin common sense and people quit barking up a tree about what needs to be done and just except what needs to be done, or start doing something to change it. Im all for starting to make a change. Yes Obama's staff, and those under them, found where Osama Bin Laden was hiding. Obama ordered the kill. George Bush KNEW where Osama was hiding, and let him go, on numerous occasions. Example: Prior to 9/11 EVEN though he was implicated in the 1993 world trade center bombing, Osama Bin Laden had an operation on/in an American base in dubai July 2001. Now who couldnt get the job done? And who said "the job was done" even though the war ended just a few months ago? Yeah. I thought so. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html JULY 2001.

Im sure the democrats have evloved past racism, that party is currently reperesented by a black man in office, who is running for office again this year, under the democratic ticket.

Obama has facial features and poor body language unsuitable to the regular persons eye. His face sucks, his body language sucks, but maybe what people should do is listen to his words.... By American made stuff, use common sense, Lets create jobs for the american people and bring our buisnesses home. Remember, he did order the kill on someone the whole world knows about, that would make me gray in the face too... Under his term he ended the war in Iraq, and the war is on the way to an end in afghanistan. Another thing to remember is he is trying to fix the issues left over from a president that said on national T.V. "Taco's? were having taco's for lunch?" Stress makes people look demonic.....

First things first grannywillis, in no way is this a personal attack towards you. This is a debate forum. Second i am not naive to slavery in the world still existing. third, I apologize about my grammer, in that post. I am one of those guys that type fast before he loses his train of thought, i have real world things going on when i type things, those can distract me. Just so you know. I could take your initial comments as a personal attack against me, and a personal insult .Although i will not be going to do that. What i am going to do, is agree with you. And explain myself, without trying to create a wall of text, what i meant by that. If you noticed, i said in most parts of the world. I don't hear about slavery in Europe, i don't hear about slavery in any parts of the America's, i am sure that Australia has none, and does not tolerate it. Russia, claims to be democratic and free, but that yet again could be another debate. In all of the "free" parts of the world i should have said. In Asia, slavery is served contractually the way you said, not by force. But due to a debt. Anybody willing to enter into an agreement as such in my opinion, is ignorant, to the idea that we as the United States of America stands for. Freedom. Freedom isn't a right to do what you want outside the law, Freedom is a right to EARN a substantial living wage, from the services a person provides, and with in the boundry of the law, purchase the goods, they need to survive, with that wage, when ever they need or want to. Our constitution declares certain unalienable rights and freedoms. Those are included in the U.S,A's idea of freedom. In North Korea, i am sure slavery exist, hands down, flat out, that country utilizes concentration camps. In the middle east, women are basically slaves. Men enter indentured servitude AKA slavery. ( not all, but some countries ) Most Asian countries, include indentured servitude in there laws. It is a fact of that type of society. India for example, and the cast based society, they still "unofficially" use. I am far from Naive, about many things. What some people that are "naive" forget, is that debating in a text based form, can easily be misconstrued, as information is never correctly interpreted. In now way, and this goes to anybody that reads this, am i the type of person to single out and attack someone personally on the internet, nor do i believe or think that you did that to me grannywillis, but some people that read that could take that the wrong way. In no way did i say slavery DOES NOT exist. And in no way will this make me feel unwelcome in the debate forums. Whether or not people misconstrued what i say, that is there interpretation. And if i have to keep explaining myself over and over again, i will. That is part of a debate.

No offense, i fail to see how any of the last few posts have anything to do with this debate....

First off you need to run BOSS since you told me you have patches. BOSS will sort the load order out, You also need to get Oblivion mod manager, to run the archive invalidation tool, or see if you can just find the archive invalidation tool itself. http://www.oblivion.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=20516 BOSS. http://www.oblivion.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=10724 archive invalidated, if you dont want to use OBMM. http://www.oblivion.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=22368 And if you get the time, familiarize yer self with this tool. this is wrye bash, all automatic, no head ache invloved anymore if you ever tried using it before. Get the standalone version and make sure you read the options of what it does.

How did this debate get from forgein troops to slavery? What does that have to do with diddly squat in todays time? Really... Come one slavery is a thing of the past in most parts of the world. A majority of reasons why governments are changing also is to ensure womens equal rights..... And really im not saying women have em, im just saying things are changing.... Thats left for another debate though.

i wont post meh load order or nothing just wondering what causes this so i can fix it. Been working on it all day, My sky. http://oi49.tinypic.com/1y2zj7.jpg i am using this... https://code.google.com/p/oblivion-graphics-extender/downloads/detail?name=OBGE_v31rc4.exe&can=2&q= EXE not the bain. EDIT: i fixed it, i guess it is a type of Corrupted save.

The United States Of America, is the Equivilent of a Modern Roman "Government". We are not in the "expansion" buisness so much so as the romans were, but we are the worlds only "superpower". With that i dare say, yes, it is only an inevitable occurance, it will eventually happen, whether tomorrow, or 1000 years from now. By her own people, or by a foreign power.

HeyYou, i said that from a contextual, point of view, as to not get off topic. I believe the entire Iraq war was a sham. And i believe George bush was responsible for "a lot more than that" if you get my drift. The reason i wrote that was to not get off topic, and bring this debate to a totally different direction. Historically though, mind you minus Iraq, The intention has always Been so. You Guys really dont want to debate with me the views i personally have on my government. As my views would be WAY OFFENSIVE to some. I was just putting the "view" of the "people" into context, with as much media created "facts" as possible. ( the people being mainly, poloticians and idiots with no common sense. )

Well, This one is going to be long. Maybe... I remember at the turn of the century, gas was 95 cents a gallon, Cigarettes were $2.00 a pack, and a twelve pack of beer was $5-$10. Depending on what you chose to buy. ( "these are just examples") Then 9/11 happened. Depending on what you believe, and i don't believe the whole thing was the truth, but I will use the "media" as an example. We were invaded by foreign agents. They took control of 4 of our commercial airlines. They attacked us. Because according to the reasons, we live a "western" type of life. Since then Germany, the UK, India, Russia, China, Indonesia, France, and various other countries, have "thwarted" attacks against them by "terrorists". What would these countries have done without American help? Possibly, been attacked. Threw and threw. thousands, perhaps millions of people, you me, Jim bob down the road, could have been killed. Regardless if you believe George W, Bush "caused" all this, or if you believe it was actual terrorism, one thing is for certain. 9/11 opened a can of worms that needed to be dealt with. That is a debate in its own right. It opened up a can of worms that produced, A world recession, High unemployment everywhere, high gas prices, for most "western" countries, global paranoia, and a lack of common sense. Now when i talk about America in this context, whether you like it or not, George W. Bush's term as the president of the united states of America, good or bad, affected the world. Not bush himself per-say but his entire two terms, had more of a global effect, then a national one. ( all some how miracously controlled. what if it was a strait forward nuclear attack, or an actual army that invaded? TOTAL CHAOS! somehow it was just 4 planes? hmmm okay. i never got that part of it. thats a debate in itself though. the term, Controlled Aggresion comes ro mind. ) During this time, America expanded its foreign presence around the world, in an "interest" of protecting people from global terrorism. Our interest's, in all actuality became what America consumes the most of in the world. Oil. America has always had an interest in the freedom and liberties of the people of the world. The bases there, on any foreign soil, are there contractually, binded by agreements with the other nations government. the Citizen themselves, actually will never have a say on that. It is not America's intention to go to war for "slaves" it is not america's intention to go to war for Oil. If we go to war, as has been the case, in the past, numerous times, conspiracy theories aside, It has been for two reasons. 1. To prevent an imminant attack or.... 2. In the intrest of freedom, and world peace. The current American president, Barack Hussien Obama, Has had to try and clean this mess up. Ive payed attention to what Obama says and does, and i think we all need a little common sense in our lives from our leaders. Starting with this, We get a base in a low/un defended country, we train you, and when your country feels it is trained enough, or has the tools to continue the training, we get the hell out. under a certain time line, if we did not complete the training say with in five years, we must leave. The reason we have bases in Japan, Australia and throughout the world are really actually different, After world war two, Japan became a great ally of the country it went to war with. But also lost the soverign right to build up its military. Things may have been different if Korea didnt split. Japan occupied Korea for 35 years before world war two, and with japan on the brink, China and Korea could have wiped them out, IF America didnt intervene. Our intention wasnt to wipe out the Japanese during world war 2. Our objective was to stop them from invading our country and enslaving us. Emperor Hirohito, Adolf Hitler, and Benito Mussolini, had a three way "agreement" on how if they succeded they would divide the world. Other smaller nations either by force or by choice were included into the "axis" powers. Australian/American Bases exsist for a few reasons, mainly because we are allys. America and her allys stopped Japan from taking over all of Australia. In payment for this "service" im sure we were paid back with bases contracted to us. And they have been renewed through the years, because of 1. Communism, and the war in Vietnam, and various other reasons. and 2. Most recently Communist China. One of America's Primary interests, is freedom. America, No Matter how big she is, can stop the little man, from being corrupt, foreign or domestic. We choose the "idiots" only because, theyre educated, went to school, have no criminal record ( or a small non important one. ), and are rich. These things in a democratic society, "force" you to be part of the community, from the city level to the national level. What makes Politicians Corrupt, is the game they play, and the roads they walk down in life. So really with saying all that, we are actually debating something that started at the end of world war two, and through the years, through various reasons, whether for necessity or by corrupt officials, the need for bases on foreign lands. Most U.N membership nations, share "bases". America, has foreign Military personnel in our country all the time. the difference is, We own our bases, and will not lease them out. And "share" there facilities. Im sure we also dont own "most" of the bases on foreign land, the bases are just leased out for a certain number of years. Like Hong Kong was to the English Commonwealth. One of the reasons why, and the time draws near where it is no longer an excuse, is by policy, the world wants to make sure "everybody evil involved" in WW2 is dead. that way we dont get the ONE nut, to try it all again. TWO examples of a similar scenerio. 1. Nuclear Deterence, and why america and russia never scrap theyre stock piles of nuclear weapons, because a smaller country could get them and use them in an "evil" way to attack a "superior" military. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_theory#Nuclear_power_and_deterrence 2. At the end of the movie JFK with Kevin Costner it says in 2029 all documents on the assassination of JFK will be declassified, the reasons why? Any governmental people at the time guilty of a crime will be dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_%28film%29 These are just examples of why the world does what it does. And the point of Military bases on foreign soil is a barn buster, can opener, to larger debates. Whether you like it or not, and it is fact, what america does, currently in the world today, affects everything else. I only use my Country as an example because well, it does a lot of things mostly, like this subject through out the world and has its "hands" in a lot of places. {And if you took the time to read this post, it has many points of this debate.}

Not to sound conceded, but we all know what "american interests" are. Oil, the reason the reason the U.S spreads there interest around the world is two fold. 1. We have the means too. We have allies to protect/help out train whatever, the U.S's intention 87.5 percent of the time are pure, the last ten years, not so. It is the 21st century, and well China is on the rise, if the world, with the united states as a global leader, sits back and does nothing, China's Thirst would destabilize the world economy. We would be living in a nightmare, while china floated on top. Nothing agaisnt china, but look at the numbers, how that country consumes. 2. The bad things America does? 87.5% of the time, misconstrude. Things that need to be done, that nobody else in the world has the means to do. Or the willpower to do. What america does, is in first, the interest of herself, second, in the interest of her allies. The united states can mobilize her entire military in a matter of hours if need be. and be around the world, in less that a week. America herself respects the soverignty of the rest of the world. It is individuals from America, that disgrace it. The 87.5% thing is a random number, dont quote me on that.

I like Ghengis Khan. I like chinese food. I like my wifes cooking. I like mine better.

I install the mod, do what i gotta do to make it work, and if i enjoy it i comment and endorse ( which i personally "try" to do, but i dont do it all the time, because of that 2 hour thing. And my memory :P ) I have also commented on some folks mods with positive feedback, and they took it well and befriended me, and asked me to do some work for them. Which i appreciate. I dont point these things out to boast or anything, it is just things that happen when you get active and remain positive in the community.

Just a little off topic Dazzerfong? Anyway, i have been helping a few new mod authors in the chatroom, kinda letting them know what to expect. So they dont get discouraged. I let them pretty much know what has been said here, and to ingnore those who get negative. And that staff will take care of it if they hit that report button, and dont say anything else back at the negative's. You kinda get those hyper kids in there and then they get a bad comment, and they get discouraged.

I like my riding crop I like sausages with eggs and bacon I like "cap'n fishystick" I like crazy russian ladies :P