AL12

Thank you very much for this write up, really appreciate these reports and updates, it shows of your openness to the community.

In response to post #67632606. #67634316, #67634966, #67636786, #67637301, #67650701 are all replies on the same post. We do a lot of trickery to get around the api limit. Like using a single call to get list of mods that have been modified in the last moth and cross referencing those with your modlst. Another thing is that all mods with the same nexus mod id (so patches, duplicated mods etc) will only be checked once. But your setup seems like it would be a really great stress test for the dev build, to determine if indeed the limits are too harsh, and if we can improve things on our end. We did for example add an option to updateCheck a single mod (right click menu). Here is the link to the discord server with the dev builds: https://discord.gg/6GKR9jZ

In response to post #67632416. #67634251, #67635721, #67635836, #67636566, #67637641, #67638186 are all replies on the same post. Really Nexus will not know anything you are not sending yourself. And all you are sending is the header Kerber showed you before, and that really is basic information that is actually useful to debug problems.

In response to post #67632606. #67634316 is also a reply to the same post. The new API features an account based limit of 2500 daily requests, after which you get an extra 100 each hour. If you are with no requests left, all nexus requests are blocked (this includes downloading manually). Downloading a file is 2-3 requests, checking a mod for file updates is 1-2 requests. Logging In uses requests as well. Limiting API calls is standard procedure to avoid overloading servers with requests, slowing them down. Otherwise the API functionality might get compromised for everyone because someone is abusing it. This particular implementation is pretty simplistic, but should serve it's purpose well. Nexus staff mentioned that they are monitoring usage and will adjust the limits in case they deem it necessary.

In response to post #67632451. #67632701 is also a reply to the same post. There are sill people that are fond of NMM, despite the fact that that it's no longer supported. I do believe someone of the long term fans might update it, even though I personally don't agree on that trustworthiness statement. Like with MO1 it all depends on whether there is someone there willing to put in the time and effort. Nexus staff will, understandably, not update NMM.

Congrats for the release! As people on the Mod Organizer 2 discord know, we are already testing dev builds with the new API, so you can rest assured MO2 will get an update in time to support the change. (It has been in the works already for a while) About MO1, there hasn't been any discussion yet about updating it. Since the update does take quite a considerable amount of time an effort, it could be that there is no one with enough free time to dedicate to it.

The FNIS custom output feature request came from me and the rest of the MO2 Dev team as we have noticed people struggling when using the new virtual file system changes that will make it so that all file changes get redirected to the original files, so all files that fnis changes are now not put in overwrite like before but instead are rerouted to the mods containing said files. Before we had some programs rerouted to overwrite and some in the original files (bodyslide or any program that opens a file in writing). If fnis generates the new files outside of the data folder then the original files can be preserved intact and people can safely use different profiles with different fnis outputs. Tannin I just wanted to make you aware that from the next release the Mo2 behavior will change and overwrite will only be used for completely new files. The usvfs repo already has these changes as they are a month old just not publicly released. Something that might interest you for a future adoption of usvfs for Vortex.

About the the fact that we cannot expect extensions to made so easily debate, I would wait to actually see how those work, how much programming knowledge is needed, how well the whole thing is documented etc. before being able to tell either way. After all Mod Organizer also supports plugins and extensions but none was made from the community except for game handling plugin. I'm fairly confident that the Vortex extension system will be better than that, since it seems that quite a bit of thought went into it, and I'm really looking forward to actually see how it is structured and how accessible that is. I believe that based on that Vortex can take very different directions. This is a modding community and if the it is easy and accessible enough people will make "mods" for it making Vortex really hard not to use. If they turn up to not be as accessible Vortex will have to rely much more on internal development, and people will inevitably be unhappy if that development does not reflect what they wished for the program to do. On a side note @Arthmoor, Vortex does implement its personal method of setting up rules for the plugin loadorder which is different than loot, it is definitely faster and more intuitive (even if still not at the level of simply moving around the plugins in my opinion). You can drag and drop the "link" icon from one plugin over another to set up a rule between them from a selectable list. Maybe you can find a video showcasing this if you don't have the alfa, since it is not easy to explain. My take on the new system is that it forces people to be conscious of the conflicts they actually want to resolve since they have to outright state a rule, whereas previous tools allowed people to simply move a plugin to the bottom without needing them to actually find out what the problem is, for better or worse.

Wait wait wait. a) It wouldn't just have to be a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins. It would have to be a plugin where loot fails to arrange it automatically in 15 cases! Even if loot was throwing dice you'd have to have ~30 conflicts for your users to have to set 15 rules. b) You do realise that Vortex has a utility to batch-set dependency rules? Setting 15 rules can still be done in a few seconds when you know what those conflicts. c) And there is no fundamental reason why you can't put 15 rules for a plugin into the masterlist. Or 150. d) What plugin is that? Can you give me one example of a plugin that has this many conflicts that loot doesn't auto-resolve correctly? Heck, show me one with 2. As an example a modder is creating a plugin that alters all the vanilla NPCs and wants to test it in game for a second. Lets suppose he has already installed another 5 mods which each alter a specific vanilla NPC or a group of those creating conflicts with the new file since they happen to alter the same records. Loot can't know of the new esp because the modder hasn't even finished it and of course the modder does not want his file to have dependencies on the other mods. Well this is just an example, a modder could be creating anything that has conflicting records with other existing mods. He just wants to test it not set up rules for loot yet, he will do that when he is finished. It is pretty simple really, have loot mange the load order most of the time (together with all your custom rules) and just enable manual placement for a second to make a temporary adjustment that you are sure that will be reverted once you run loot again. Otherwise you will start mixing up permanent rules that you want to always be active with one time changes. There should be two levels, permanent level with rules and temporary level with manual adjustments. I'm not advocating the people that don't want to use loot altogether here, just refusing on principle to adopt a valid system that will help the community seems stupid. I just wish Vortex would allow it to make the life easier for people. The way I personally managed my loadorder was to run loot, add an occasional rule to loot for some particular things I wanted loaded differently, and use the MO drag and drop to just put things where I wanted If I had to load xEdit or Mator Smash or some other tool. After I was done I would run loot again and be very happy that everything returned to its place correctly. Well you said your views Tannin and I can respect that so I can stop here with my reasons. You are not wrong and you chose the path that would be best for most users, it's just not convenient for everybody. I hope that the Vortex development can continue smoothly and that you won't have to deal with so much ungratefulness in the future.

To me the problem with plugin loadorder seems pretty simple Tannin. New users and casual users dont want to care about load order, you saw this correctly and included automatic Loot sorting. As these users start to get bigger setups, loadorder problems may arise so adjustments might be needed. You saw this too and implemented the loot rule system integrated in the gui. But then there are good number of modders by now (considering Skyrim was released in 2011) that are veterans, have complicaed setups and are well versed in the modding knowledge. These obviously include the mod creators themselves. These people will also need a manager bu not for the goal of running the game without problems but to develop things. Adopting the Loot system as a primary system is a very good idea since it's the correct way of doing things and many users wan it to be like that (something that they don't have to care about if not in rare cases). But for the veteran modders and mod creators having to set individual rules just to move a plugin in determined spot to test somethig, then removing thise rules and set up new ones to move it again, its just not convenient enough. Now you have said different times that there is no reason to move a plugin in a particular spot because the underlaying problem is a conflict not the position that matters, you are right and you then argued that rules is the right way to go because they are the appropriate answer to the underlying problem which is a conflict. A agree to that, but what if I have a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins? The correct way of doing it for an end user is to setup 15 rules and he would never have to worry after that, but for the mod creator or the advanced modder that wants to change that to test things, he needs to track down the rules he set up, disable them and put up 15 new rules just to try a different configuration. Using positioning for a plugin in a list of 100 plugins is the equivalent of instantly setting 99 rules. You make a really valid argument saying that probably 80 of those rules are redundant, but you can't argue againts how much this is more convenient and fast. Also as true as it is that rules solve the underlaying problem, they are not what the game recieves in imput: the game expects a sequenatil list of plugins. People can counter argue that Vortex is complicating something that is simple and sequential with rules that are not simple and sequential. It is just much easier to think of a list than a set of rules. There are many occasions where putting a plugin manually somewhere is simpler, as an example, somebody creates his own plugin and wants to quickly test it. Does he first look what kind of conflict he has with what mods and sets all the rules accordingly just to test it a moment, of course not. He just wants to put it somewhere he knows won't make problems, drag and drop will let him do that without even having to think. It is not the right thing to do, but he is not looking to resolve conflicts at this moment, he is looking to test if his plugin without having others overwrite it. Yes you can use the rules to give it a global priority or make it load after the last but these are not correct rules, they are saying that that plugin needs to alwasy load after the others or after waht happend to be the last one at that moment, which is not reflecting an actual conflict solution. The guy is forced to create a rule that is not true just to make a quick test. In that case those rules are jsut as imporper as imposing 99 rules with positioning, but positioning is just way more convenient and fast. The way I would personally want to manage my loadorder is to let Loot order things by itself for the most part. If I know that a mod is misplaced by loot I would add a rule for that plugin and then be glad to let loot do its thing. If I need to test plugin or I need to be sure something is laoded correctly I would momentarely enable manual ordering put the mod I want where I want it and run my tests. Once I ended my testing I will then disable manual ordering and procede to add the appropriate rules. Summarizing my points: Integrating loot is a great idea and will make life easier for a lot of end users. The rules system is a good system, it will help improve Loot and you can do everything with it. But it is not convenient for creator or advanced users that need to move around stuff and rappresent an ulterior abstraction to what is actually being handled, which is a sequential list of plugins. What people would like to hear is that Vortex will allow in future for drag and drop plugin ordering as a secondary (or even hidden) option. This way new or casual users will be satisfied with the easy auto ordering, more advanced users can fully utilize the rules system to resolve their conflicts and even more advanced users and creators don't have to sacrifice convenience or ease of use. Everybody would then be happy. I know this means more work but since people won't shut up about it and mod creators are what this community is based on I hope it will be considered.

To me the problem seems pretty simple Tannin. New users and casual users dont want to care about load order, you saw this correctly and included automatic Loot sorting. As these users start to get bigger setups, loadorder problems may arise so adjustments might be needed. You saw this too and implemented the loot rule system integrated in the gui. But then there are good number of modders by now (considering Skyrim was released in 2011) that are veterans, have complicaed setups and are well versed in the modding knowledge. These obviously comprihend the mod creators themselves. These people will also need a manager bu not for the goal of running the game without problems but to develop things. Adopting the Loot system as a primary system is a very good idea since it's the correct way of doing things and many users wan it to be like that (something that they don't have to care about if not in rare cases). But for the veteran modders and mod creators having to set individual rules just to move a plugin in determined spot to test somethig, then removing thise rules and set up new ones to move it again, its just not convenient enough. Now you have said different times that there is no reason to move a plugin in a particular spot because the underlaying problem is a conflict not the position that matters, you are right and you then argued that rules is the right way to go because they are the appropriate answer to the underlying problem which is a conflict. A agree to that, but what if I have a plugin that has conflicts with 15 other plugins? The correct way of doing it for an end user is to setup 15 rules and he would never have to worry after that, but for the mod creator or the advanced modder that wants to change that to test things, he needs to track down the rules he set up, disable them and put up 15 new rules just to try a different configuration. Using positioning for a plugin in a list of 100 plugins is the equivalent of instantly setting 99 rules. You make a really valid argument saying that probably 80 of those rules are redundant, but you can't argue againts how much this is more convenient and fast. Also as true as it is that rules solve the underlaying problem, they are not what the game recieves in imput: the game expects a sequenatil list of plugins. People can counter argue that Vortex is complicating something that is simple and sequential with rules that are not simple and sequential. It is just much easier to think of a list than a set of rules. There are many occasions where putting a plugin manually somewhere is simpler, as an example, somebody creates his own plugin and wants to quickly test it. Does he first look what kind of conflict he has with what mods and sets all the rules accordingly just to test it a moment, of course not. He just wants to put it somewhere he knows won't make problems, drag and drop will let him do that without even having to think. It is not the right thing to do, but he is not looking to resolve conflicts at this moment, he is looking to test if his plugin without having others overwrite it. Yes you can use the rules to give it a global priority or make it load after the last but these are not correct rules, they are saying that that plugin needs to alwasy load after the others or after waht happend to be the last one at that moment, which is not reflecting an actual conflict solution. The guy is forced to create a rule that is not true just to make a quick test. In that case those rules are jsut as imporper as imposing 99 rules with positioning, but positioning is just way more convenient and fast. The way I would personally want to manage my loadorder is to let Loot order things by itself for the most part. If I know that a mod is misplaced by loot I would add a rule for that plugin and then be glad to let loot do its thing. If I need to test plugin or I need to be sure something is laoded correctly I would momentarely enable manual ordering put the mod I want where I want it and run my tests. Once I ended my testing I will then disable manual ordering and procede to add the appropriate rules. Summarizing my points: Integrating loot is a great idea and will make life easier for a lot of end users. The rules system is a good system, it will help improve Loot and you can do everything with it. But it is not convenient for creator or advanced users that need to move around stuff and rappresent an ulterior abstraction to what is actually being handled, which is a sequential list of plugins. What people would like to hear is that Vortex will allow in future for drag and drop plugin ordering as a secondary (or even hidden) option. This way new or casual users will be satisfied with the easy auto ordering, more advanced users can fully utilize the rules system to resolve their conflicts and even more advanced users and creators don't have to sacrifice convenience or ease of use. Everybody would then be happy. I know this means more work but since people won't shut up about it I hope it will be considered.

ÃÃÃÂ But this is exactly the reason I removed manual mod ordering! install ordering your texture mods A B C D E without a conflict between them just for organisational purposes is wrong, it's misusing the feature. This is supposed to be painful because it's not what this feature is for. If I could I would make Vortex slap you for every time you do this. It's like complaining your toothbrush is bad for cleaning your floors. ÃÃÃÂ If you want to visually order your mods this is a separate feature and we can talk about it separately but this thread is about load ordering, a feature for resolving conflicts and nothing else. What you want and what you're asking for are not the same thing! You're asking me for free form load ordering so you can do visual ordering with it. ÃÃÃÂ Yes that is exactly what people are asking, a way to visually resolve their mods conflicts. Sequential ordering with drag and drop is a solution that people know to work very well for them. Its easy intuitive and fast and they don't see way it would not be acceptable to use it if they know what they are doing just because somebody else doesn't.But if you say you can offer an alternative in the future that does not have the issues that the MO approach has but offers the same level of usability and immediacy, then that is alright. I don't expect the alfa to be a completed product. The important thing is that a good number of people don't seem satisfied with the current approach they have to take for conflict resolution, as it is not as immediate and visually intuitive as other existing solutions to which they are used to by now. I hope this is what gets through and that it can be addressed in the future by offering alternative options or expanding the existing system. Edit: I would be interested in discussing the options, maybe in an appropriate topic so that people can voice their opinions.

You can rename mods. Double click the mod and a sidebar will show up with info about that mod. There you can change the mod name. Thanks I missed that one. Maybe add a tip somewhere? I can imagine other people not finding it too if it is not advertised.

On a different note will mod renaming be supported? I did not find a way to rename them even after poking around a bit.

Even with all the points Tannin made I must agree that sequential ordering with drag and drop is just way more convenient and immediate if you know what you are doing. I think a lot of people would appreciate this feature very much. I don't believe that only because a feature is too advanced (and really it isn't something that a good explanation would not cover) it should be omitted. I don't mean for it to be the standard or the default way of ordering mods, just an alternative method disabled by default. Just like plugin ordering this is a feature that people that know what they are doing (which is not a low number) could use with great benefits. The very hard aim of Vortex is to be accessible to new users but please remember not to sacrifice usability and convenience for the people that treat modding much more seriously. Getting vortex stable is of course more important than any feature request at this moment, but I think that communicating these things is vital to make sure that the feedback and thoughts of the community on the tool are clear so that they may be addressed in due time.