Is enchanting a bit too dark for good characters?

[IsharaMeradin]

I don't buy into soul capturing as erasing their existence. After having worked on my own mod related to soul gems and soul trapping, I can definitively state that the soul trap process takes place when the target dies. The magic of the soul trapping device (spell, enchanted weapon, etc) creates a barrier that funnels the soul to the gem rather than allowing its natural escape to wherever it is that souls go in the TES world.

 

Consider this, all life is made up of energy. Cells moving about creating and storing energy. When a being dies that energy gets released. Most of that energy is potential in the form of fat and muscle that will eventually be consumed by something for further sustenance. There is also kinetic energy that is released immediately. You might call that the life force, the spark of life, etc... Whether that is the same as a person's soul or spirit, is not for me to dictate.

 

As an enchanter you are catching that released energy as the being dies and using it for various purposes. That energy will eventually be used and if used on something like a weapon that energy will be released over time as it gets used. Thus returning that energy to traverse to wherever it wants to just as it would have originally. If that energy is used on a self sustaining object like an enchanted necklace, it may never be released until the object is destroyed.

 

However, Skyrim does make a distinction between animals and people. Black soul trapping catches more than just the energy released at death, it truly captures the soul or essence of the person (that which defined the individual in life -- whatever you wish to call it). I can't say more without spoiling.

 

All that said, I propose the following as the best "good enchanter"

Collect only white souls when hunting for food for self or others. Use those souls only to recharge weapons, preferably weapons provided by a deity. I recall Dawnbreaker had to be fed soul gems to keep charged up.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Interesting point. An animist religion might hold that animals which attack you are acting according to their nature and that while killing them, whether in self-defense or for their natural products like meat and skins, is part of nature, part of the natural cycle, taking their souls is an abomination against nature's innocents. A bear shouldn't lose its soul just for choosing the wrong prey as its next meal, even if it is rightfully slain.

 

However, that same religion might view murder as abominable to the degree that any humans who do this forfeit their souls. Humans have a conscience and knowledge of good and evil, so while a bear can attack you in innocence a human who attacks you is not innocent. Kyne cares not for the soul of a murderer.

 

The belief system might be even more nuanced; humans that attack other humans in innocence, even possibly including soldiers following orders, might be innocent despite their violence, so soul trapping them might be forbidden. Fallen Stormcloaks and Imperials belong in Sovngarde (or equivalent), not in the juicebox of some fancy staff. (Thalmor as always belong in a sparkly black rock. Sacrificing them at the Atronach Forge seems the most fitting fate.)

 

What if the only souls you were allowed to trap were of the undead? That makes a lot of sense if you think about it: does anyone really care what happens to a draugr after it dies again?

 

Falmer are yet another exception: they're smart enough to raid villages and so forth yet not intelligent enough to fill a black soul gem. They would seem to be fair game, at least all those hostile to the player (which is all of them). Umm those bird-chicks, same thing ... hagravens, yeah. Any "white-souled" creature with knowledge of good and evil, with enough free will to choose to kill, would probably be fair game.

 

I do like the "abominations only rule". I think if you really want to be Dudley Do-Right you should only trap undead, Thalmor, gargoyles, and maybe hagravens if you worship Kyne. (If I missed an obvious abomination put it on the list.)

[hyralux]

Thank you both for the insightful posts! I do find it strange that the Hagravens and the Falmer both have lost the requirement for a black soul gem. Very odd indeed. Perhaps Bethesda believed they both had lost the right to be soul trapped without any heavy moral consequences? Abominations would be a great idea for soul trapping for sure. A loading screen states that the skeletons no longer feel any pain or remorse which leads me to believe that they might be just soulless puppets held together by magic.

 

I understand that even scholars do not know why enchants on armor don't lose strength over time and that raises a question regarding if the soul is permanently attached or if it is released upon enchantment. It would also be fun to go around smashing some soul gems for some extra good guy points : )

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

The taking of any souls of any kind doesn't sound like the actions of a person of premium good alignment in my opinion.

 

I think Bethesda just made a distinction between the soul types basically to add freedom to gameplay sort of how they let you be able to join every faction at the same time in one playthrough.

 

It's just that, until this thread, I never seen or heard anyone considered good to consider it okay to tamper with anyone or anything's soul. In fact, usually doing such is often considered the worse thing you can do.

 

But I dunno. Maybe I just don't understand TES Universe or something. I mean someone compared taking something's soul to looting their corpse and my immediate thought was, "HAHAHA, No." So if it really is like that, I've definitely been playing wrong.

 

Imagine the challenge though of playing with no enchanted things (which is why I think Bethesda differentiated the souls). That could be pretty hardcore.

 

You can definitely come up with any RP reason to do just about anything. Does it mean that it isn't a bit of a stretch at times? No. It just mans that technically a person can justify or rationalize anything.

 

The real question here is, are you looking for RP reasons to enchant DESPITE being a good character or were you really wondering if a good aligned character should be all about puttin some souls into things?

[fifteenspades]

 

I do like the "abominations only rule". I think if you really want to be Dudley Do-Right you should only trap undead, Thalmor, gargoyles, and maybe hagravens if you worship Kyne. (If I missed an obvious abomination put it on the list.)

 

Well that would only work based on your view of "abominations" such as the undead, it's not their choice to be undead they just are but why does that make them an abomination? so does that make it evil or good when you take their soul.

btw why are Thalmor on that list? o.o

Edited August 10, 2013 by fifteenspades

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Well that would only work based on your view of "abominations" such as the undead, it's not their choice to be undead they just are but why does that make them an abomination? so does that make it evil or good when you take their soul.

btw why are Thalmor on that list? o.o

 

 

Yeah, that is kind of what I was thinking too. Thing is, also, even if those things were in fact evil I can't help but feel a truly good character would not stoop to that level so to speak?

 

Kind of like what makes a good character a truly good character is remaining good even where most wouldn't and messing with a soul would be going too far. I dunno.

 

Point is, I agree with you that the undead could be considered victims and I think that the Thalmor can't truly be considered evil.

[hyralux]

The taking of any souls of any kind doesn't sound like the actions of a person of premium good alignment in my opinion.

 

I think Bethesda just made a distinction between the soul types basically to add freedom to gameplay sort of how they let you be able to join every faction at the same time in one playthrough.

 

It's just that, until this thread, I never seen or heard anyone considered good to consider it okay to tamper with anyone or anything's soul. In fact, usually doing such is often considered the worse thing you can do.

 

But I dunno. Maybe I just don't understand TES Universe or something. I mean someone compared taking something's soul to looting their corpse and my immediate thought was, "HAHAHA, No." So if it really is like that, I've definitely been playing wrong.

 

Imagine the challenge though of playing with no enchanted things (which is why I think Bethesda differentiated the souls). That could be pretty hardcore.

 

You can definitely come up with any RP reason to do just about anything. Does it mean that it isn't a bit of a stretch at times? No. It just mans that technically a person can justify or rationalize anything.

 

The real question here is, are you looking for RP reasons to enchant DESPITE being a good character or were you really wondering if a good aligned character should be all about puttin some souls into things?

I'll get down to the gritty details. I was planning on making a kindhearted Nord mage that wasn't raised in Skyrim so he doesn't have the inherent prejudices of the rest of his kin. You can see from in game that soul gems are a pretty normal part of life in Tamriel, laying in people's houses or sold by vendors. I can't really remember anyone abstaining from their use except maybe the Redguard in the Cheydinhal mage's guild. Now that comes across to me that they are either too stupid to know how they work (which baffles me that entire continent wouldn't know by now), or there is more to their use than what is previously stated. I guess it would be considered normal by anyone who doesn't believe anything carrying a white soul deserves to have it taken it away.

 

The Thalmor being soul trapped is a joke lol..

 

 

 

I do like the "abominations only rule". I think if you really want to be Dudley Do-Right you should only trap undead, Thalmor, gargoyles, and maybe hagravens if you worship Kyne. (If I missed an obvious abomination put it on the list.)

 

Well that would only work based on your view of "abominations" such as the undead, it's not their choice to be undead they just are but why does that make them an abomination? so does that make it evil or good when you take their soul.

btw why are Thalmor on that list? o.o

 

I guess when he says Abomination, we truly mean something that has some kind of spark keeping it moving. Skeletons for example feel no pain and are just puppets yet they produce a soul when soul trapped. I definitely see where you're coming from though, two wrongs don't make a right. It just comes down to whether your character would believe that he could use soul trapping as a punishing mechanism.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I'll get down to the gritty details. I was planning on making a kindhearted Nord mage that wasn't raised in Skyrim so he doesn't have the inherent prejudices of the rest of his kin. You can see from in game that soul gems are a pretty normal part of life in Tamriel, laying in people's houses or sold by vendors. I can't really remember anyone abstaining from their use except maybe the Redguard in the Cheydinhal mage's guild. Now that comes across to me that they are either too stupid to know how they work (which baffles me that entire continent wouldn't know by now), or there is more to their use than what is previously stated. I guess it would be considered normal by anyone who doesn't believe anything carrying a white soul deserves to have it taken it away.

 

I got ya. Well looking at it that way, it would appear that most do not know how it actually works. I think it is sort of like automobiles or planes or whatever. Most people that use them have no idea as to how they actually work... or should I say lack a significant understanding as to how they work. They might be able to tell you some basics, but beyond that they have no idea as to what is happening on the inside.

 

I think it is like that for soul gems and enchantments that they are unaware as and or don't think deeply on the subject matter kind of like most people who eat meat have never been a part of the slaughter process despite knowing that an animal died for the burger (I still eat meat because it tastes too freakin good). I hope this isn't considered a spoiler of any kind but I just don't think most people are even aware of the Soul Cairn.

 

So the question is, do you want your mage to be aware and with a high moral compass in which case they would possess an even greater uniqueness than they already have being a Nord Mage by abstaining from the use of enchantments and soul gems as the price is too steep... or will they justify the taking of the most prized thing of existence and using it for personal gain?

 

The third option is just to do it and just not think too deeply about it as I've made good characters and used soul gems without blinking an eye (no black soul gems though) but it is because they just didn't think about it... OR, or you could just RP that your mage uses a different process to enchant items. Of course game wise you'd be doing the same thing, but you could RP that somehow your mage uses him or herself to enchant rather than another? I dunno.

 

Great thread by the way (in my opinion anyway) as I find the topic of the use of the enchantments interesting and have never thought about it too deeply before now.

[fifteenspades]

 

I'll get down to the gritty details. I was planning on making a kindhearted Nord mage that wasn't raised in Skyrim so he doesn't have the inherent prejudices of the rest of his kin. You can see from in game that soul gems are a pretty normal part of life in Tamriel, laying in people's houses or sold by vendors. I can't really remember anyone abstaining from their use except maybe the Redguard in the Cheydinhal mage's guild. Now that comes across to me that they are either too stupid to know how they work (which baffles me that entire continent wouldn't know by now), or there is more to their use than what is previously stated. I guess it would be considered normal by anyone who doesn't believe anything carrying a white soul deserves to have it taken it away.

 

The Thalmor being soul trapped is a joke lol..

 

 

Well it's like that in reality too. Ask an expert on why we sleep. like precisely why. and they cannot tell you.

The fact we sleep is just accepted without even knowing why by the world at large. It could be the same way with the soul gems everyone pretty much knows what they "can" do. maybe not to a full extent, but no one truly understands why or the how.

 

Now for the fun part :3

You say you are making a "kind" hearted mage. but that does not mean he is good. You see a bear cub who's basically dying slowly and painfully and there is no way to save it. Do you

A. Put it out of its misery? That would be the kind gesture but you would be killing it so it's not a sense "good"

B. Leave it alone? the "good" choice

 

Next sample. You see a group of people fighting a bear, and the bear is obviously going to win and kill them.

A. Save them? That would be the "kind" choice but remember the "kind" choice does not mean it's the right or "good" choice

B. Leave it alone? that is the "good choice" why you may ask, well you don't know the situation it could be they are hunters who just killed the cubs and the mother is trying to protect itself or anything along those lines~

 

Just remember in your travels The Good Character is not always the right or kindest character. ( depending on your view ofc )

 

 

( idk why i keep choosiing bears )

Edited August 10, 2013 by fifteenspades

[hyralux]

 

 

I'll get down to the gritty details. I was planning on making a kindhearted Nord mage that wasn't raised in Skyrim so he doesn't have the inherent prejudices of the rest of his kin. You can see from in game that soul gems are a pretty normal part of life in Tamriel, laying in people's houses or sold by vendors. I can't really remember anyone abstaining from their use except maybe the Redguard in the Cheydinhal mage's guild. Now that comes across to me that they are either too stupid to know how they work (which baffles me that entire continent wouldn't know by now), or there is more to their use than what is previously stated. I guess it would be considered normal by anyone who doesn't believe anything carrying a white soul deserves to have it taken it away.

 

The Thalmor being soul trapped is a joke lol..

 

 

Well it's like that in reality too. Ask an expert on why we sleep. like precisely why. and they cannot tell you.

The fact we sleep is just accepted without even knowing why by the world at large. It could be the same way with the soul gems everyone pretty much knows what they "can" do. maybe not to a full extent, but no one truly understands why or the how.

 

Now for the fun part :3

You say you are making a "kind" hearted mage. but that does not mean he is good. You see a bear cub who's basically dying slowly and painfully and there is no way to save it. Do you

A. Put it out of its misery? That would be the kind gesture but you would be killing it so it's not a sense "good"

B. Leave it alone? the "good" choice

 

Next sample. You see a group of people fighting a bear, and the bear is obviously going to win and kill them.

A. Save them? That would be the "kind" choice but remember the "kind" choice does not mean it's the right or "good" choice

B. Leave it alone? that is the "good choice" why you may ask, well you don't know the situation it could be they are hunters who just killed the cubs and the mother is trying to protect itself or anything along those lines~

 

Just remember in your travels The Good Character is not always the right or kindest character. ( depending on your view ofc )

 

 

( idk why i keep choosiing bears )

 

That's kind of the problem with the term good isn't it? I feel like we have an option to perform in a negative way but that isn't always the case with good. I mean I could always say I heal the bear and cure his afflictions that are ailing him. Or I could say I use my alteration magics to intervene in the fight between the humans and the bear and cease the fight. I understand how sooner or later though I will be put into a situation that has hurts despite good intentions and there's not gonna be an option C. I suppose its how we handle those intentions that define whether or not we tried our best to preserve good. I'm starting to think you just hate bears ;)

Thanks for the great post!

 

 

I'll get down to the gritty details. I was planning on making a kindhearted Nord mage that wasn't raised in Skyrim so he doesn't have the inherent prejudices of the rest of his kin. You can see from in game that soul gems are a pretty normal part of life in Tamriel, laying in people's houses or sold by vendors. I can't really remember anyone abstaining from their use except maybe the Redguard in the Cheydinhal mage's guild. Now that comes across to me that they are either too stupid to know how they work (which baffles me that entire continent wouldn't know by now), or there is more to their use than what is previously stated. I guess it would be considered normal by anyone who doesn't believe anything carrying a white soul deserves to have it taken it away.

 

I got ya. Well looking at it that way, it would appear that most do not know how it actually works. I think it is sort of like automobiles or planes or whatever. Most people that use them have no idea as to how they actually work... or should I say lack a significant understanding as to how they work. They might be able to tell you some basics, but beyond that they have no idea as to what is happening on the inside.

 

I think it is like that for soul gems and enchantments that they are unaware as and or don't think deeply on the subject matter kind of like most people who eat meat have never been a part of the slaughter process despite knowing that an animal died for the burger (I still eat meat because it tastes too freakin good). I hope this isn't considered a spoiler of any kind but I just don't think most people are even aware of the Soul Cairn.

 

So the question is, do you want your mage to be aware and with a high moral compass in which case they would possess an even greater uniqueness than they already have being a Nord Mage by abstaining from the use of enchantments and soul gems as the price is too steep... or will they justify the taking of the most prized thing of existence and using it for personal gain?

 

The third option is just to do it and just not think too deeply about it as I've made good characters and used soul gems without blinking an eye (no black soul gems though) but it is because they just didn't think about it... OR, or you could just RP that your mage uses a different process to enchant items. Of course game wise you'd be doing the same thing, but you could RP that somehow your mage uses him or herself to enchant rather than another? I dunno.

 

Great thread by the way (in my opinion anyway) as I find the topic of the use of the enchantments interesting and have never thought about it too deeply before now.

 

Thanks! I figured I would see what other people thought so I could use their opinions to help weigh down my own. I find myself wanting to use the power of enchanting completely for its practical uses instead of using it as a moral mask, so to speak. I believe you're options you gave me are great ones and I'll have to decide whether or not the power is worth the cost of losing both uniqueness and a sense of my moral compass.