Can magic really compete with traditional weapons?

[Deleted3507349User]

SImple short answer to the original question: NO.

 

I've yet to meet a finger-wriggler that can stand up to me weilding (competently) a simple sword and shield. They go down even faster with supporting enchantments. Mages squish like silly putty when you run up their nose sword-point-first. Dragon Priests can be the exception, of course. This is based on the vanilla game, mind you.

[Bozzz123]

SImple short answer to the original question: NO.

 

I've yet to meet a finger-wriggler that can stand up to me weilding (competently) a simple sword and shield. They go down even faster with supporting enchantments. Mages squish like silly putty when you run up their nose sword-point-first. Dragon Priests can be the exception, of course. This is based on the vanilla game, mind you.

I would have to disagree. Sure, you could kill the npc mages in game easily. But those are npcs. They cant fully take advantage of perks, enchantments, spells, potions, equipment, and simple tactics to compete with a melee character. But this is about the player, not the npcs.

[blacksupernova]

 

1.) You stated these things AFTER the fact I brought them up rather than before. Why? If you're stating a fact, then why was there room for possibility? I take it you didn't read the part of my post where I said I'd highly doubt that you'd have them due to the fact that I stated it before your last post? This is why I would need a video. No offense, but on the internet, I take most people's word with a grain of salt with huge claims.

Sorry, I'm pretty simple minded. I didn't think I would need to explain after I wrote that post

 

2.) The math still doesn't add up until I see a video of your perks list. Hood or not. 100 hit points isn't a lot toward anything health wise.

Ok, I've got the video showing my battle with Draugr Death Overlord below

 

3.) Cost reduction is an enchantment unless otherwise applied through a perk. You've not stated anything specific, while I did; which again, I'd need to see a video, because too much still doesn't make any sense.

I'm talking about cost reduction from skill (and I stated it clearly in my previous post). You know, spell cost decreases as your skill goes up

 

4.) As for the Atronach Forge, I'm still finding problems. I could understand a staff, but you still have 100 HP. Even if you have enough to cast, it'll be destroyed quicker than you can shake two sticks at. Storm Atronach's have way way WAY less HP, then two of the enemies proposed by you and I constantly see them thwarted on Legendary. Both through my tests of what you've said, and on YouTube. What happens when they turn their sight on you? Can you destroy them without summons? That's not overpowered. That's called tactic. Two separate paradigms.

On legendary, enemies will most likely kill me in 2 hits even with some added health. What's the point of having more? I have used atronachs long enough to know they are not easily destroyed if you know to use them right, watch my video below

 

5.) Arcwind Point is one of those select few places. But having the Draugr plummeting to their death isn't skill. It's just a cheap tatic. Good tactic, but hardly anything 'overpowered'.

I'm showing you the position where you can find a Draugr Death Overlord at low level, answering to your previous post saying them appearing at about level 30, I didn't mention anything about killing them with unrelenting force

 

6.) You're still summoning, which those are SPELL BASED disposable followers. It's a spell yes, but that's still not defeated by you single handedly. You're not creating anything. You're calling FORTH. Conjuration is based on Evocation. Evocation is to summon or call forth. So to explain this better, you're using your summon's power. Not your own. While yours was the initial one to cast, it's hardly any of your combat work other than casting the spell. I know I'm being redundant, and very picky. I have reason to as I'll state in the next number of points to address.

OK, I accept your statement, which is the reason why in my video, I mostly fought the Draugr Death Overlord with my destruction and only use conjuration at the end when it is about to die to show how I usually combine destruction and conjuration

 

7.) They're immune to SHOCK DAMAGE. You do know that Dragon Priests in the Creation Kit have a few more spells than that lightning spell, yes? Not to mention the fact that you said that's all they cast, nooooo. Dragon Priests aren't limited to one spell. Also, Ash Spawn isn't vanilla. Nor is Wrathman. I forgot to mention that Wrathman is added by Dawnguard. You said vanilla which vanilla = Only Skyrim.ESM and Upate.ESM. That doesn't include DLC based content. Do note: Legendary was added by a patch that doesn't require DLC. If you're using DLC spells, you're not playing purely vanilla.

if you ever take a look at dragonpriest data in the CK, you would know that there are 4 classes of dragonpriest. Shock class, fire class, frost class and staff class. Shock class only has shock spells to deal damage (they do have other support spells), fire class has fire spells , frost class has frost spells and staff class has adept shock, fire or frost spells. Zahkriisos, Otar, Hevnoraak, Morokei always have shock spells; Rahgot and Ahzidal has fire; Dukaan, Krosis and Volsung has frost; the others have adept version of all three. I didn't say any where in my previous post that they cast only shock spells.

About Ash spawn and wrathman, you're right. I got the wrong definition of "vanilla" and used it wrongly.

 

8.) You dying once or twice was completely omitted from your first statement. You saying that they were overpowered gave the assertion that you weren't dying at all. You then continued to keep that assertion up even after character death was discussed many times. This is why I'm taking what you're saying with a grain of salt. I'm thinking you're dying a lot more.

I take back that statement, I don't die when fighting Draugr Death Overlord even though I had to kill it 5 times just to get 1 decent video. About dragonpriest, I don't die if you allow me to use conjuration, if not, then you're right, I can not defeat a dragonpriest.

 

9.) If you do the video, I'd need to see the level, your spell perk trees, your inventory for number potions, gear for enchantments, your console to make sure that no cheats were enabled, spells that you'll be using, and recording all character deaths that happen. So no cuts of the video if you die. Another thing is making sure it's in high quality, to ensure that all reading of the game is legible and easy to understand. Another thing you stated, was that this was all completely vanilla. I would also like to see your Data Files in the launcher.

The video is quite stutter even though the game is not, I don't know to make a better one (if you can show me, then I would gladly kill the Draugr again). I have all DLCs activated but didn't use any of their content in the video, I showed my data files in the video already. I didn't show my number of potions because I didn't use any of them in the battle.

 

Here's the video. I didn't get lucky on this one and encountered a mere Draugr Scouge Lord. So I used console command to spawn a Draugr Death Overlord, check this page if you want proof that I used the right ID to spawned http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Draugr

As I went buying an Apprentice Hood, I found Adept Hood and used it instead (Adept Hood starts appearing at level 10, coincident right? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Generic_Magic_Apparel#Fortify_Magicka)

 

Edited September 21, 2013 by blacksupernova

[Bozzz123]

 

I would say mage being overpowered because my vanilla mage can single-handedly defeat draugr death overlord, dragonpriest and giant at about level 10 on legendary without using potions, none of my archer or melee warrior can do that.

 

 

 

1.) You stated these things AFTER the fact I brought them up rather than before. Why? If you're stating a fact, then why was there room for possibility? I take it you didn't read the part of my post where I said I'd highly doubt that you'd have them due to the fact that I stated it before your last post? This is why I would need a video. No offense, but on the internet, I take most people's word with a grain of salt with huge claims.

Sorry, I'm pretty simple minded. I didn't think I would need to explain after I wrote that post

 

2.) The math still doesn't add up until I see a video of your perks list. Hood or not. 100 hit points isn't a lot toward anything health wise.

Ok, I've got the video showing my battle with Draugr Death Overlord below

 

3.) Cost reduction is an enchantment unless otherwise applied through a perk. You've not stated anything specific, while I did; which again, I'd need to see a video, because too much still doesn't make any sense.

I'm talking about cost reduction from skill (and I stated it clearly in my previous post). You know, spell cost decreases as your skill goes up

 

4.) As for the Atronach Forge, I'm still finding problems. I could understand a staff, but you still have 100 HP. Even if you have enough to cast, it'll be destroyed quicker than you can shake two sticks at. Storm Atronach's have way way WAY less HP, then two of the enemies proposed by you and I constantly see them thwarted on Legendary. Both through my tests of what you've said, and on YouTube. What happens when they turn their sight on you? Can you destroy them without summons? That's not overpowered. That's called tactic. Two separate paradigms.

On legendary, enemies will most likely kill me in 2 hits even with some added health. What's the point of having more? I have used atronachs long enough to know they are not easily destroyed if you know to use them right, watch my video below

 

5.) Arcwind Point is one of those select few places. But having the Draugr plummeting to their death isn't skill. It's just a cheap tatic. Good tactic, but hardly anything 'overpowered'.

I'm showing you the position where you can find a Draugr Death Overlord at low level, answering to your previous post saying them appearing at about level 30, I didn't mention anything about killing them with unrelenting force

 

6.) You're still summoning, which those are SPELL BASED disposable followers. It's a spell yes, but that's still not defeated by you single handedly. You're not creating anything. You're calling FORTH. Conjuration is based on Evocation. Evocation is to summon or call forth. So to explain this better, you're using your summon's power. Not your own. While yours was the initial one to cast, it's hardly any of your combat work other than casting the spell. I know I'm being redundant, and very picky. I have reason to as I'll state in the next number of points to address.

OK, I accept your statement, which is the reason why in my video, I mostly fought the Draugr Death Overlord with my destruction and only use conjuration at the end when it is about to die to show how I usually combine destruction and conjuration

 

7.) They're immune to SHOCK DAMAGE. You do know that Dragon Priests in the Creation Kit have a few more spells than that lightning spell, yes? Not to mention the fact that you said that's all they cast, nooooo. Dragon Priests aren't limited to one spell. Also, Ash Spawn isn't vanilla. Nor is Wrathman. I forgot to mention that Wrathman is added by Dawnguard. You said vanilla which vanilla = Only Skyrim.ESM and Upate.ESM. That doesn't include DLC based content. Do note: Legendary was added by a patch that doesn't require DLC. If you're using DLC spells, you're not playing purely vanilla.

if you ever take a look at dragonpriest data in the CK, you would know that there are 4 classes of dragonpriest. Shock class, fire class, frost class and staff class. Shock class only has shock spells to deal damage (they do have other support spells), fire class has fire spells , frost class has frost spells and staff class has adept shock, fire or frost spells. Zahkriisos, Otar, Hevnoraak, Morokei always have shock spells; Rahgot and Ahzidal has fire; Dukaan, Krosis and Volsung has frost; the others have adept version of all three. I didn't say any where in my previous post that they cast only shock spells.

About Ash spawn and wrathman, you're right. I got the wrong definition of "vanilla" and used it wrongly.

 

8.) You dying once or twice was completely omitted from your first statement. You saying that they were overpowered gave the assertion that you weren't dying at all. You then continued to keep that assertion up even after character death was discussed many times. This is why I'm taking what you're saying with a grain of salt. I'm thinking you're dying a lot more.

I take back that statement, I don't die when fighting Draugr Death Overlord even though I had to kill it 5 times just to get 1 decent video. About dragonpriest, I don't die if you allow me to use conjuration, if not, then you're right, I can not defeat a dragonpriest.

 

9.) If you do the video, I'd need to see the level, your spell perk trees, your inventory for number potions, gear for enchantments, your console to make sure that no cheats were enabled, spells that you'll be using, and recording all character deaths that happen. So no cuts of the video if you die. Another thing is making sure it's in high quality, to ensure that all reading of the game is legible and easy to understand. Another thing you stated, was that this was all completely vanilla. I would also like to see your Data Files in the launcher.

The video is quite stutter even though the game is not, I don't know to make a better one (if you can show me, then I would gladly kill the Draugr again). I have all DLCs activated but didn't use any of their content in the video, I showed my data files in the video already. I didn't show my number of potions because I didn't use any of them in the battle.

 

Here's the video. I didn't get lucky on this one and encountered a mere Draugr Scouge Lord. So I used console command to spawn a Draugr Death Overlord, check this page if you want proof that I used the right ID to spawned http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Draugr

As I went buying an Apprentice Hood, I found Adept Hood and used it instead (Adept Hood starts appearing at level 10, coincident right? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Generic_Magic_Apparel#Fortify_Magicka)

 

 

 

I watched the video and it just further disproved this original point. Sure, you killed him. But it took you 13 minutes just to do it. Thats not overpowered. Overpowered is running into a draugr death overlord and killing him in a couple of seconds and being on your way. You just ran around in circles for 13 minutes spamming the same spell at him over and over. And furthermore, you didnt start summoning until he was almost dead. You killed him, hurray. And you almost did it single handidly. But kiting for 13 minutes isn't overpowered, its a strategy. And a pretty slow one.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Bozzz123

[blacksupernova]

 

I watched the video and it just further disproved this original point. Sure, you killed him. But it took you 13 minutes just to do it. Thats not overpowered. Overpowered is running into a draugr death overlord and killing him in a couple of seconds and being on your way. You just ran around in circles for 13 minutes spamming the same spell at him over and over. And furthermore, you didnt start summoning until he was almost dead. You killed him, hurray. And you almost did it single handidly. But kiting for 13 minutes isn't overpowered, its a strategy. And a pretty slow one.

I seriously don't get it. So you're definition of "overpowered" means I have to be able to run into the draugr and kill him in a couple of seconds? How is that even possible? Now I ask you, Is there any (if any) way to kill a high level opponent in Skyrim in a couple of seconds on Legendary without exploitation, even with all that weapon and sneaking? I'm talking about possibility, while you talk about impossibility. I talk about the hardest targets a low-level mage can beat, while you talk about something not achievable in anyway. Now I understand why you called me lying and trying to impress. From the beginning, you expected me to fail at something impossible. And you're right, my mage is not overpowered by your definition because there is no such thing in the game unless you put tons of time grinding your enchanting, smithing and alchemy and reach high level.

 

If you read my previous post, you'll understand why I didn't start summoning right when I entered battle. Because you and the other guy said summoning is not "single-handedly". I didn't use conjuration to show you that I can defeat them single-handedly. I only used summoning when he's about to die to show you how I usually combine destruction and conjuration, and how it would help to kill the draugr much faster. And there, you complained. So let me get this straight, you would not satisfy whether I use summoning or not, correct?

 

It is true that my killing the Draugr is slow, but can you think of any way to beat him faster without exploitation, unrelenting force or summoning (if I summon, you would just attack "single-handedly" anyway), and can you think of any way a weapon wielder can beat the Draugr at such level? Is there any strategy a weapon-wielder can utilize to save himself if he accidentally run across a Draugr Death Overlord in the Arcwind Point? If there is not, that's mean my mage is overpowered compared to warrior and archer because he can do thing that the other classes can not while the three classes are supposed to be at balance.

Edited September 21, 2013 by blacksupernova

[Bozzz123]

 

 

I watched the video and it just further disproved this original point. Sure, you killed him. But it took you 13 minutes just to do it. Thats not overpowered. Overpowered is running into a draugr death overlord and killing him in a couple of seconds and being on your way. You just ran around in circles for 13 minutes spamming the same spell at him over and over. And furthermore, you didnt start summoning until he was almost dead. You killed him, hurray. And you almost did it single handidly. But kiting for 13 minutes isn't overpowered, its a strategy. And a pretty slow one.

I seriously don't get it. So you're definition of "overpowered" means I have to be able to run into the draugr and kill him in a couple of seconds? How is that even possible? Now I ask you, Is there any (if any) way to kill a high level opponent in Skyrim in a couple of seconds on Legendary without exploitation, even with all that weapon and sneaking? I'm talking about possibility, while you talk about impossibility. I talk about the hardest targets a low-level mage can beat, while you talk about something not achievable in anyway. Now I understand why you called me lying and trying to impress. From the beginning, you expected me to fail at something impossible. And you're right, my mage is not overpowered by your definition because there is no such thing in the game unless you put tons of time grinding your enchanting, smithing and alchemy and reach high level.

 

If you read my previous post, you'll understand why I didn't start summoning right when I entered battle. Because you and the other guy said summoning is not "single-handedly". I didn't use conjuration to show you that I can defeat them single-handedly. I only used summoning when he's about to die to show you how I usually combine destruction and conjuration, and how it would help to kill the draugr much faster. And there, you complained. So let me get this straight, you would not satisfy whether I use summoning or not, correct?

 

It is true that my killing the Draugr is slow, but can you think of any way to beat him faster without exploitation, unrelenting force or summoning (if I summon, you would just attack "single-handedly" anyway), and can you think of any way a weapon wielder can beat the Draugr at such level? Is there any strategy a weapon-wielder can utilize to save himself if he accidentally run across a Draugr Death Overlord in the Arcwind Point? If there is not, that's mean my mage is overpowered compared to warrior and archer because he can do thing that the other classes can not while the three classes are supposed to be at balance.

 

Everybody has a different definition of overpowered, sure. But I dont know anyone who calls overpowered running around in circles for 15 minutes. I also don't beleive that a level 10 vanilla mage can be overpowered. Its just not possible. For me, overpowered is a broad term, and there are no guidelines that tell you when you are overpowered and when you aren't. Simply deafeting an enemy is not overpowered, however, no matter how tough he is. And you say it is impossible to be overpowered without grinding your enchantments, alchemy and smithing. Im some regards, you are correct. That's why being overpowered doesn't come until later levels. My vanilla mage is overpowered, he can destroy that draugr death overlord wihthout too much of a sweat. But my mage is also level 45. He's got maxed enchanting and the best mage equipment in the game.

 

As for summoning, I didn't realize that you choose not to summon until the very end. It just struck me when you explained your strategy, half of it was summoning an atronach and letting him do the work. Then in the video you never summoned once until he was nearly dead. There's nothing wrong with that but if you are making a video showing your overpowered mage why would you not throw everything you've got at it? You made the video to show your strategy and your overpowered mage yet you only executed half of that strategy and made the mage less powerful.

 

When you are saying your mage is overpowered, you are comparing him with your other characters, namly a warrior and an archer. If your warrior and your archer can't kill the draugr and your mage can, then in that aspect your mage is indeed stronger than your other characters. That does not make him overpowered, though, it just makes him a bit stronger against a melee enemy. But hes just stronger against that type of enemy. If up against an archer I bet your warrior character would be a lot more effective than your mage. Thats because some classes are better than others when your fighting certain types of enemies.

[justwannaddl]

If you measure it by damage per second, I would have to say no. Without exploits or mods, magic has been really heavily nerfed in the Skyrim in comparison to previous games. Chalk it up to the lack of spell crafting and many of the most interesting effects being limited to shouts. Pure mages (no physical armor, weapons or reliance on mundane stealth) in the game lack the one or two hit kill potential of melee and bow wielders with lootable items.

 

Magic works best as a supplement to the other skill sets. Illusion reinforces stealth. Alteration gives extra armor and paralyzes opponents for you to wail on. Destruction is (much) weaker but easier to use than a bow. That said, people who want to be pure mages should do so more for the variety than efficiency.

 

I find magic to be more desirable with disposable minions as mages act best as support characters. That is why I love using my necromancer character with twin souls. Two dead thralled boss lvl mages armed with a pair of high level staves or a pair of boss lvl archers make for fun glass cannons that I am unafraid of accidentally re-killing with AoE attacks, charms or paralysis effects. If you have dawnguard, you can even heal them though I prefer just to ressurect them. Hearing them die again with sighs of relief always amuses me before I ressurect their butts for more misery. :P

[pheo3309]

 

 

 

I watched the video and it just further disproved this original point. Sure, you killed him. But it took you 13 minutes just to do it. Thats not overpowered. Overpowered is running into a draugr death overlord and killing him in a couple of seconds and being on your way. You just ran around in circles for 13 minutes spamming the same spell at him over and over. And furthermore, you didnt start summoning until he was almost dead. You killed him, hurray. And you almost did it single handidly. But kiting for 13 minutes isn't overpowered, its a strategy. And a pretty slow one.

I seriously don't get it. So you're definition of "overpowered" means I have to be able to run into the draugr and kill him in a couple of seconds? How is that even possible? Now I ask you, Is there any (if any) way to kill a high level opponent in Skyrim in a couple of seconds on Legendary without exploitation, even with all that weapon and sneaking? I'm talking about possibility, while you talk about impossibility. I talk about the hardest targets a low-level mage can beat, while you talk about something not achievable in anyway. Now I understand why you called me lying and trying to impress. From the beginning, you expected me to fail at something impossible. And you're right, my mage is not overpowered by your definition because there is no such thing in the game unless you put tons of time grinding your enchanting, smithing and alchemy and reach high level.

 

If you read my previous post, you'll understand why I didn't start summoning right when I entered battle. Because you and the other guy said summoning is not "single-handedly". I didn't use conjuration to show you that I can defeat them single-handedly. I only used summoning when he's about to die to show you how I usually combine destruction and conjuration, and how it would help to kill the draugr much faster. And there, you complained. So let me get this straight, you would not satisfy whether I use summoning or not, correct?

 

It is true that my killing the Draugr is slow, but can you think of any way to beat him faster without exploitation, unrelenting force or summoning (if I summon, you would just attack "single-handedly" anyway), and can you think of any way a weapon wielder can beat the Draugr at such level? Is there any strategy a weapon-wielder can utilize to save himself if he accidentally run across a Draugr Death Overlord in the Arcwind Point? If there is not, that's mean my mage is overpowered compared to warrior and archer because he can do thing that the other classes can not while the three classes are supposed to be at balance.

 

Everybody has a different definition of overpowered, sure. But I dont know anyone who calls overpowered running around in circles for 15 minutes. I also don't beleive that a level 10 vanilla mage can be overpowered. Its just not possible. For me, overpowered is a broad term, and there are no guidelines that tell you when you are overpowered and when you aren't. Simply deafeting an enemy is not overpowered, however, no matter how tough he is. And you say it is impossible to be overpowered without grinding your enchantments, alchemy and smithing. Im some regards, you are correct. That's why being overpowered doesn't come until later levels. My vanilla mage is overpowered, he can destroy that draugr death overlord wihthout too much of a sweat. But my mage is also level 45. He's got maxed enchanting and the best mage equipment in the game.

 

As for summoning, I didn't realize that you choose not to summon until the very end. It just struck me when you explained your strategy, half of it was summoning an atronach and letting him do the work. Then in the video you never summoned once until he was nearly dead. There's nothing wrong with that but if you are making a video showing your overpowered mage why would you not throw everything you've got at it? You made the video to show your strategy and your overpowered mage yet you only executed half of that strategy and made the mage less powerful.

 

When you are saying your mage is overpowered, you are comparing him with your other characters, namly a warrior and an archer. If your warrior and your archer can't kill the draugr and your mage can, then in that aspect your mage is indeed stronger than your other characters. That does not make him overpowered, though, it just makes him a bit stronger against a melee enemy. But hes just stronger against that type of enemy. If up against an archer I bet your warrior character would be a lot more effective than your mage. Thats because some classes are better than others when your fighting certain types of enemies.

 

 

Not only that, but it's the simple fact that overpowered is something that is quick and simple. Running around isn't quick and simple. In fact it's a tedious way to play and sometimes inevitably die in the end. The video just proves prior points of tactic vs overpowered. Tactic has still won.

Turning to the direction of BlackSuperNova, while I thank you for the video, it still doesn't prove the above, which was the statement of being overpowered. You basically proved that you're good at tactically analyzing the situation, not being a powerhouse. Traditionally, overpowered in terms of Magecraft means a limitless amount of Magicka. While you have quick regen, you also consume a lot more than you regen. So you have to run and build. That isn't being overpowered. That's tactic. A completely separate paradigm. Can it constitute into being overpowered? Yes, but under the conditions that you've displayed, the casting isn't effortless. There's times in the video that you quickly run to get away from it. Aside from the other failed 5 videos, the first thing I'd like to say is this is all strategy. Not power. What you've essentially shown is furthering the point that the key to making magic compete with traditional weapons is basing your Magecraft on strategy and tactic. Not sheer power. I'll give you an example of overpowered in terms of mages.

1.) Having a huge supply of Magicka.

2.) Barely any magicka consumption.

3.) No need to run around, being able to take the hit.

4.) No need for any support magics or potions.(As we've established before, summons are a support magic.)

5.) Massive damage in a short deal of time.

Now going back to the video, we seen time progress from afternoonish to nightfall. Massive damage in a short deal if time is definitely counted out. The second thing is you ran around. Good strategy, but truly overpowered mages would have dealt with them in less than the time displayed. While you displayed that you took it down single handedly until the very end, there wasn't a huge base of magicka, there was a TON of magicka being consumed. I'll give you the no need for support magics, being as it was just that tail end, but I want you to look at your original post and compare it with your video. What you said in the initial post doesn't compare to what you were describing. You led the assumption that it was quick and effortless. By some of the dodgy maneuvers you used, I can very well tell it's not effortless at all. Especially running around for 14 minutes. While that's easy, if it was a DragonPriest, how long could you have kept that up?

Also, when talking about Dragon Priests, they DO have spell lists, I think you misunderstood me. This is from encDragonPriestFire that Rahgot is derived off of, however all of them have a list similar to the following:

WardGreaterLeftHand

ConjureFlameAtronachLeftHand

FireballRightHand

EbonyFleshLeftHand

CommandDaedraLeftHand

IncinerateRightHand

FlameCloakLeftHand

To see those list, right click on the LSpellDragonPriestFire(it can be any spelltype though), then click edit. You'll see this list pop up. They don't only have destruction based spells. Which was my main point that I think you misunderstood. They do have other things in their spell arsenal that can make even the toughest of mages pull their hair out.

I've also yet to see any other distinct argument that separates tactics used in means of being overpowered. Even at higher levels, there's instances where things aren't so very easy. In the same sense, leveled lists barely change. Now that I can give the leeway toward being overpowered, but that's not the magic's fault. That's the developer's fault. They never anticipate these things. We seen it loads in Morrowind and loads in Oblivion.. It's why we don't have spellcrafting anymore due to the fact that people were up in arms about balance. They gave us something new and we still complain about it. I think the magic system in this game is close to perfect as is, other than the fact of limited spells. You can only make them better through tactic most of the time. Aside from perks, but even through perks, enchantments, and potions, you can only get to a certain amount of damage without modding or using console commands. But the thing I think that really makes it look like it's overpowered is how leveled lists are set up. Rather than fixing that, they gave us Legendary. After I finish with my modding endeavors and work slows down, I may try and fix that issue myself as I haven't seen leveled lists to my liking.

But moving back to BlackSuperNova; I've still yet to see the evidence of what you claimed, which was that they were overpowered at level 10 in terms of Legendary. All you've proven thus far is tactic. While it's a good tactic, I can for sure say, it's also based on luck. And that my friend, goes either way in Magecraft. Like Alchemy, Spellcasting is also a subtle art and science. One piece of advice: When running around, don't run around so close to the enemy, rather draw it out to some place where they're confined and limited, then launch a summon in front of you and the enemy NPC. That's not overpowered. That's tactic. To me, overpowered is Morrowind's Alchemy system. Not only did the potions stack, but it could also glitch the character to increase skills well more than above skill limitations.

[Bozzz123]

Well now I am determined to make a video of my overpowered vanilla mage, and show how an overpowered mage really is.

[pheo3309]

Well now I am determined to make a video of my overpowered vanilla mage, and show how an overpowered mage really is.

 

Duuuu et! :P I'm curious about some of your theories. If you can't though, we can discuss what you do in PMs. That way we can determine which is tactic and what isn't. I mean at level 45, the perk count would be pretty substantial. Though the huge problem that I can see with some illusion of being overpowered is the leveled lists. They don't really 'level' with the player. =/ So they have what the developers chose for abilities, spells, perks, and auto-calculated HP, Magicka, and Stamina. One thing for your video that I think would test this theory is doing one at say half of your current level (if possible) and then going through the same area on your level 45. I'm looking through the kit now and a lot of things are just stock created, then generated. If it IS that, then well... We have a huge mod request to request for. xD If not, then you'll have proof of higher level mages being overpowered.

 

Pondering question, you have the Kit, right?