Can magic really compete with traditional weapons?

[blacksupernova]

 

I'll give you the no need for support magics, being as it was just that tail end, but I want you to look at your original post and compare it with your video. What you said in the initial post doesn't compare to what you were describing. You led the assumption that it was quick and effortless. By some of the dodgy maneuvers you used, I can very well tell it's not effortless at all. Especially running around for 14 minutes. While that's easy, if it was a DragonPriest, how long could you have kept that up?

Alright, I really do want to close this pointless argument and be on my way, but I still need to ask you some final questions: you said what I said in the initial post doesn't compare to what I was describing, that I led to the assumption that it was quick and effortless. But I don't remember anywhere did I give suggestion or mention or hint to that assumption, that it would be "quick and effortless" (in fact, I did mention I had to run around to regen magicka, and that I might die once or twice, that defeating dragonpriest is possible but not easy. They were the opposite of "quick and effortless"). I could be wrong (if so, my apology) but up until I release my video, you only argued about me not being able to defeat that high level opponents, that it's not possible that I used few potions, that summon isnot single-handedly and so on. Only until after I posted my video that you started to mention "quick and effortless". Why didn't you bring that up earlier? That could have saved all of us a lot of time. I say it again, I didn't intent to hint or suggest anything to lead to that assumption, you accused me of doing so, please show me when.

 

About dragonpriest, I already said that you were right, that I wouldn't be able to defeat them without conjuration if you don't count it as "single-handedly". Should I use conjuration, I wouldn't need to run around for that long. A strategy for dragonpriest is totally different from a strategy for a draugr death overlord, don't compare them.

My initial post:

 

I would say mage being overpowered because my vanilla mage can single-handedly defeat draugr death overlord, dragonpriest and giant at about level 10 on legendary without using potions, none of my archer or melee warrior can do that.

In this claim, I used causal clause to show my own definition of "overpowered", that is: (1) being able to defeat much stronger enemy than you're level should be able, (2) on highest difficulty, (3) without external aid and (4) without limited support items (I also mentioned warrior and archer class to show that "overpowered" is compared with them). You started by stating how impossible my claim was, that you knew which level a mage could started to kill and it was not 10, that how my magicka was too limited to do so, that I couldn't have those spells. I admit, some of your points is right, I was wrong about "vannila". "Single-handedly", I have my own definition for that but I followed your term instead and took back my claim that I could defeat dragonpriest all on my own. But in short, you accepted and used my definition of "overpowered" and analysed them to argue its impossibility and told me I needed proof. You DIDN'T provide your definition of "overpowered". You led me to the assumption that I just had to prove what I stated. Only when I had done just that, you dismissed it by stating your OWN definition of "overpowered" ("quick and effortless" and that long list). Why didn't you do that earlier? That's a crucial point to decide that you and I are never on the same track and I would just be on my way and save myself from all the trouble of making and uploading video.

 

PS: about dragonpriest, I think you misunderstood me. I stated once that I am well-awared that they have many more spells (and I do know how to view leveled spell list) but those are not of my concern. I only care about spells that my mage would need to care, that is, the elemental damage spells and the possible conjure creature spell they have. From those spells, I choose the suitable conjuration spells to deal with them. Ebonyflesh, Command Daedra, Elemental Cloaks, Ward and the others mean nothing to my mage.

Edited September 22, 2013 by blacksupernova

[pheo3309]

 

 

I'll give you the no need for support magics, being as it was just that tail end, but I want you to look at your original post and compare it with your video. What you said in the initial post doesn't compare to what you were describing. You led the assumption that it was quick and effortless. By some of the dodgy maneuvers you used, I can very well tell it's not effortless at all. Especially running around for 14 minutes. While that's easy, if it was a DragonPriest, how long could you have kept that up?

Alright, I really do want to close this pointless argument and be on my way, but I still need to ask you some final questions: you said what I said in the initial post doesn't compare to what I was describing, that I led to the assumption that it was quick and effortless. But I don't remember anywhere did I give suggestion or mention or hint to that assumption, that it would be "quick and effortless" (in fact, I did mention I had to run around to regen magicka, and that I might die once or twice, that defeating dragonpriest is possible but not easy. They were the opposite of "quick and effortless"). I could be wrong (if so, my apology) but up until I release my video, you only argued about me not being able to defeat that high level opponents, that it's not possible that I used few potions, that summon isnot single-handedly and so on. Only until after I posted my video that you started to mention "quick and effortless". Why didn't you bring that up earlier? That could have saved all of us a lot of time. I say it again, I didn't intent to hint or suggest anything to lead to that assumption, you accused me of doing so, please show me when.

 

Okay, you feel that you didn't hint around however your initial post was this:

 

 

 

I would say mage being overpowered because my vanilla mage can single-handedly defeat draugr death overlord, dragonpriest and giant at about level 10 on legendary without using potions, none of my archer or melee warrior can do that.

 

Now dissecting the first post and analyzing it with the video, you didn't mention conjuration, and you were naming enemies that are way WAY above the normal leveled list. This also leaves me to state this; I have stated definitions and examples of overpowered to you. A few times in fact. I ask that you re-read the thread. The second thing is that this first post allows the reader to assume that it's 'quick' and 'easy'. You're doing it 'single handedly' and not using 'potions'. Essentially it sounded as if your mage was bulked up on console commands and no offense, on a power trip. Your video didn't display anything overpowered. Just a display of the running around tactic, wittling health down as much as you can, before allowing your summon to help finish it off. Tactic is not overpowering. You're giving yourself that assertion. I start talking about being overpowered and what mages look like being overpowered on page 3. Your video doesn't display anything overpowered. :P Maybe in your opinion it does, but basing it on loads of other games that has mages and including Skyrim, it doesn't meet anything I've seen, nor does it make a substantial argument otherwise. Now if it was tactic, yes. I can agree they can be taken down with TACTIC. But tactic and overpowered, again, are two different paradigms with two different conditions even though overpowered DOES have tactic added to it. From what you've displayed though, nothing screams at me of being overpowered.

 

 

 

About dragonpriest, I already said that you were right, that I wouldn't be able to defeat them without conjuration if you don't count it as "single-handedly". Should I use conjuration, I wouldn't need to run around for that long. A strategy for dragonpriest is totally different from a strategy for a draugr death overlord, don't compare them.

 

I'm going to refer you back to this post you made here on page 4:

 

 

The reason why I can defeat those powerful opponents at such low level is because I combine conjuration and destruction: conjure up powerful creatures to engage combat while standing aside, aiding them with my own destruction spells and waiting for magicka to recharge at the same time. Usually, conjured creature is killed when my magicka is fully recharged and I can immediately raise another one but if they are killed too quickly, I would run around, avoiding the target to buy some time.

 

I wasn't comparing them. You were the one that threw them into the 'powerful opponents' category, using the same tactic. I didn't state this. You did. Thus the assertion.

 

 

 

In this claim, I used causal clause to show my own definition of "overpowered", that is: (1) being able to defeat much stronger enemy than you're level should be able, (2) on highest difficulty, (3) without external aid and (4) without limited support items (I also mentioned warrior and archer class to show that "overpowered" is compared with them).

 

Casual is defining something through less than accurate means. Magecraft is a very EXACT and subtle paradigm. Each and every Magecraft skill plays a role with each other. Defeating a stronger enemy on the highest difficulty without external aid and without limited support items in your video show tactic. Again it's different than overpowered, two separate paradigms. What you essentially displayed was tactic. You admitted that you die with them, you admitted you use summons (which again evocation is different than doing the spell slinging yourself), and you try your darndest not to take a hit. If your mage is truly overpowered, you wouldn't have to rely on those. And you admitted in your strategy that you rely on summons, which is external aid. In the video, you display tactic on using environmental factors to your advantage. I will give you that one, but again, that's just a tactic. I didn't see huge chunks of the Overlord's health going down. I didn't see speed and efficiency. I seen a mage, who was trying his best not to die.

 

 

 

You DIDN'T provide your definition of "overpowered". You led me to the assumption that I just had to prove what I stated. Only when I had done just that, you dismissed it by stating your OWN definition of "overpowered" ("quick and effortless" and that long list). Why didn't you do that earlier?

 

Again, I did start talking about the paradigm of overpowered on Page 4. As for 'why didn't I do that earlier', why didn't you ask rather than assuming all of us who have been debating you carried the same definition of the paradigm as yourself? I respond to the posts given, answering the questions and addressing the points. You didn't ask, nor did you state your 'definition', on which I could state was loosely based until after I posted mine through trying to get you to look at it from the perspective of some of us in this thread.

 

 

 

you accepted and used my definition of "overpowered" and analysed them to argue its impossibility and told me I needed proof. You led me to the assumption that I just had to prove what I stated.

 

You misunderstood me. I do not and did not accept your definition, nor will I use it. No offense, but your definition is again, too loosely based and too broad to actually define the mechanics of a game as it includes a plethora of NPCs, not just enemy NPCs mind you. I said even based on your 'definition' that I would need proof as you carried that burden of proof. Until I saw it and analyzed the video, I wouldn't believe it because of the simple fact that the fallacy of burden of proof was on you. Hence why you have to prove. In any debate, if you claim it, you prove it. It doesn't go to the skeptic when there's proof to state the otherwise. And like you, when they did win against such enemies, it was the same tactic displayed. Again, nothing hinting to being overpowered.

 

 

 

That's a crucial point to decide that you and I are never on the same track and I would just be on my way and save myself from all the trouble of making and uploading video.

 

Again, you never asked. You claimed, and some of us in this thread found your claim unbelievable, and have proven our points correct. Nothing was overpowered. We tried to talk to you about it. We even said "We need proof" initially. You never stated your definition of overpowered until page 5 when those of us in this thread that seen the video said that there was nothing that displayed being overpowered. The only thing you proved was that the key into winning against a lot of PvE situations was tactic. Like Bozzz said, there's many definitions of being overpowered, but like him, I've never seen anyone claim something is overpowered by running around them for 15 minutes and kill them that way. We've established that what you proved was strategy. If you want to go around saying they're overpowered, that's fine. But you also have to accept that a lot of people may not and will not accept the loosely based pseudo-definition that will vary from player to player. I've an open mind, but I've also a skeptical mind hence why I called myself a person of doubt.

 

 

 

PS: about dragonpriest, I think you misunderstood me. I stated once that I am well-awared that they have many more spells (and I do know how to view leveled spell list) but those are not of my concern. I only care about spells that my mage would need to care, that is, the elemental damage spells and the possible conjure creature spell they have. From those spells, I choose the suitable conjuration spells to deal with them. Ebonyflesh, Command Daedra, Elemental Cloaks, Ward and the others mean nothing to my mage.

 

No, I heard you quite clear. You stated that they were easy and I said that there were other spells in their arsenal that they can cast in battle. You were leading another assertion before that they only cast their elemental type which was what I was trying to point out to you after. You never included "they use (elemental type) spells and others" which leads on the assertion that they cast only those kinds of spells. I prefer to specify what exactly they cast due to the fact that others won't have a false illusion of what they do or don't cast, especially in threads like these. This is the second that the OP has posted, and I've followed them since the day they were created. I'm not going to talk about one or two spells of an enemy. I'd rather talk about them all, that way people who don't know what exactly is being cast, or are having trouble, they can use the information available to them in the thread to their advantage in making better strategy. And some advice, you should worry about Command Daedra if you're using Atronach summons. There's no Mundus-based Daedra in Skyrim game wise (not talking about lore). So they essentially can turn your summons against you. I linked you to the specific page so that you can refer to it.

 

In ending this whole argument, you have your way, many of us in this thread and outside of it have ours. However when you're claiming something is overpowered and thinking that we all carry the same definition as you, that's when you're going to get into a debate like this. So if you want to end this argument and go your own way, that's fine. I feel that this has derived from the main topic as is anyways and would much better like to go back into the topic about how weapons and magic work together as equals. ;)

[blacksupernova]

Just one final word :blush: Storm Atronach is immune to Command Daedra so it's actually worthless against me. But anyway, just look at how it turned out debating dragonpriest matter, let alone "overpowered". We're so different in perception yet not different at all in one matter: We both don't understand each other's thinking, you never understand my mind and I can never understand yours, that's the sole problem for this argument. We keep causing other to make false assumption without even acknowledging or understanding how it could be so misleading. Even in your last post, you still misjudged what I said, but that's alright, I think I should just leave it like that instead of keeping it on. It's best that we leave this behind and be cool, OK?

[pheo3309]

Just one final word :blush: Storm Atronach is immune to Command Daedra so it's actually worthless against me. But anyway, just look at how it turned out debating dragonpriest matter, let alone "overpowered". We're so different in perception yet not different at all in one matter: We both don't understand each other's thinking, you never understand my mind and I can never understand yours, that's the sole problem for this argument.

 

Storm Atronach may be, but again, the sole purpose of threads like these are to educate others in specifics. If you want to go into specifics, it's not immune. Command Daedra works on any Daedra level 20 and below. Storm Atronach is level 30. Some mods will change this either higher or lower for Command Daedra and thus affecting Dragon Priests' spell lists. Also, it's not that we don't understand each other. I understand what you're saying, but I completely disagree with it for the reasons stated above.

 

We keep causing other to make false assumption without even acknowledging or understanding how it could be so misleading. Even in your last post, you still misjudged what I said, but that's alright, I think I should just leave it like that instead of keeping it on. It's best that we leave this behind and be cool, OK?

 

There's no causing. The reason why I believe you are going on assertions and assumptions is how you initially came into the thread without stating key specific things. For instance if I said "I can throw a fireball from my hand without any help in real life", you'd be all "LOLYEAHSUREPROVEIT!". Then I later post a video going against everything I had said using chemical chain reactions and toilet paper along with hand protecting gloves. But if I had stated "I can throw a fireball from my hand with the help of chemistry and protective gloves", you'd not get the assertion that I was a loon. That's not misjudging what you say, that's taking what you say in it's exact context. Unless you're meaning something completely different, which you were. In which case I can only misjudge because of the failure of incomplete data at hand. It's like trying to load Skyrim without any textures. So my last word and to leave it all behind, in the future please remember that we can't read your mind. It's best to state thing as clear as possible, no matter how complicated it may sound. Details save bandwidth. :tongue:

Edited September 23, 2013 by pheo3309

[Ulfric1]

 

 

1.) You stated these things AFTER the fact I brought them up rather than before. Why? If you're stating a fact, then why was there room for possibility? I take it you didn't read the part of my post where I said I'd highly doubt that you'd have them due to the fact that I stated it before your last post? This is why I would need a video. No offense, but on the internet, I take most people's word with a grain of salt with huge claims.

Sorry, I'm pretty simple minded. I didn't think I would need to explain after I wrote that post

 

2.) The math still doesn't add up until I see a video of your perks list. Hood or not. 100 hit points isn't a lot toward anything health wise.

Ok, I've got the video showing my battle with Draugr Death Overlord below

 

3.) Cost reduction is an enchantment unless otherwise applied through a perk. You've not stated anything specific, while I did; which again, I'd need to see a video, because too much still doesn't make any sense.

I'm talking about cost reduction from skill (and I stated it clearly in my previous post). You know, spell cost decreases as your skill goes up

 

4.) As for the Atronach Forge, I'm still finding problems. I could understand a staff, but you still have 100 HP. Even if you have enough to cast, it'll be destroyed quicker than you can shake two sticks at. Storm Atronach's have way way WAY less HP, then two of the enemies proposed by you and I constantly see them thwarted on Legendary. Both through my tests of what you've said, and on YouTube. What happens when they turn their sight on you? Can you destroy them without summons? That's not overpowered. That's called tactic. Two separate paradigms.

On legendary, enemies will most likely kill me in 2 hits even with some added health. What's the point of having more? I have used atronachs long enough to know they are not easily destroyed if you know to use them right, watch my video below

 

5.) Arcwind Point is one of those select few places. But having the Draugr plummeting to their death isn't skill. It's just a cheap tatic. Good tactic, but hardly anything 'overpowered'.

I'm showing you the position where you can find a Draugr Death Overlord at low level, answering to your previous post saying them appearing at about level 30, I didn't mention anything about killing them with unrelenting force

 

6.) You're still summoning, which those are SPELL BASED disposable followers. It's a spell yes, but that's still not defeated by you single handedly. You're not creating anything. You're calling FORTH. Conjuration is based on Evocation. Evocation is to summon or call forth. So to explain this better, you're using your summon's power. Not your own. While yours was the initial one to cast, it's hardly any of your combat work other than casting the spell. I know I'm being redundant, and very picky. I have reason to as I'll state in the next number of points to address.

OK, I accept your statement, which is the reason why in my video, I mostly fought the Draugr Death Overlord with my destruction and only use conjuration at the end when it is about to die to show how I usually combine destruction and conjuration

 

7.) They're immune to SHOCK DAMAGE. You do know that Dragon Priests in the Creation Kit have a few more spells than that lightning spell, yes? Not to mention the fact that you said that's all they cast, nooooo. Dragon Priests aren't limited to one spell. Also, Ash Spawn isn't vanilla. Nor is Wrathman. I forgot to mention that Wrathman is added by Dawnguard. You said vanilla which vanilla = Only Skyrim.ESM and Upate.ESM. That doesn't include DLC based content. Do note: Legendary was added by a patch that doesn't require DLC. If you're using DLC spells, you're not playing purely vanilla.

if you ever take a look at dragonpriest data in the CK, you would know that there are 4 classes of dragonpriest. Shock class, fire class, frost class and staff class. Shock class only has shock spells to deal damage (they do have other support spells), fire class has fire spells , frost class has frost spells and staff class has adept shock, fire or frost spells. Zahkriisos, Otar, Hevnoraak, Morokei always have shock spells; Rahgot and Ahzidal has fire; Dukaan, Krosis and Volsung has frost; the others have adept version of all three. I didn't say any where in my previous post that they cast only shock spells.

About Ash spawn and wrathman, you're right. I got the wrong definition of "vanilla" and used it wrongly.

 

8.) You dying once or twice was completely omitted from your first statement. You saying that they were overpowered gave the assertion that you weren't dying at all. You then continued to keep that assertion up even after character death was discussed many times. This is why I'm taking what you're saying with a grain of salt. I'm thinking you're dying a lot more.

I take back that statement, I don't die when fighting Draugr Death Overlord even though I had to kill it 5 times just to get 1 decent video. About dragonpriest, I don't die if you allow me to use conjuration, if not, then you're right, I can not defeat a dragonpriest.

 

9.) If you do the video, I'd need to see the level, your spell perk trees, your inventory for number potions, gear for enchantments, your console to make sure that no cheats were enabled, spells that you'll be using, and recording all character deaths that happen. So no cuts of the video if you die. Another thing is making sure it's in high quality, to ensure that all reading of the game is legible and easy to understand. Another thing you stated, was that this was all completely vanilla. I would also like to see your Data Files in the launcher.

The video is quite stutter even though the game is not, I don't know to make a better one (if you can show me, then I would gladly kill the Draugr again). I have all DLCs activated but didn't use any of their content in the video, I showed my data files in the video already. I didn't show my number of potions because I didn't use any of them in the battle.

 

Here's the video. I didn't get lucky on this one and encountered a mere Draugr Scouge Lord. So I used console command to spawn a Draugr Death Overlord, check this page if you want proof that I used the right ID to spawned http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Draugr

As I went buying an Apprentice Hood, I found Adept Hood and used it instead (Adept Hood starts appearing at level 10, coincident right? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Generic_Magic_Apparel#Fortify_Magicka)

 

 

I gotta admit I was wrong before when I thought it wouldn't happen. Nice job against that Death Overlord bro! :)

 

The question of the thread was whether magic can compete with weaponry, and with this, he proved it can. Even at low levels.

[zombierelic]

Yes and no. On one hand, as others have mentioned, using certain combos of spells will make you completely invisible, one hit multiple enemies in a wide range, add insane stats and on the other you can be one hit by a decent bow. I'd say it relies on: Cleverness, preparedness, and a little bit of luck. I rather like that, as, at least for me this is the very essences of the magic users I read about in fantasy novels and so do love playing as. True it can be more challenging but at least to me its better than being a Daedric armored, duel wielding, immune to magic tank.

[Deleted31005User]

I admit I havn't read all the comments but here is how I play and when the combat gets tough I always go to magic.

-Equipment enchanted so that you get 100% less mana used when casting destruction magic, get some enchanting perks so you can place 2 enchantments on each piece of equipment and get more mana and mana regeneration as wall.

-I wear nothing but heavy armor with appropriate perks as well, no movement slowdown or anything.

-Summon 2x storm atronach, these guys prefer to sit back and shoot lightning from a distance and are especially useful against a group of enemies since their lightning will bounce to several targets, with the right perks you summon them at half of the mana cost and they become stronger as well.

-Activate lightning cloak.

-Activate ebony flesh.

-Spam thunderbolt without any loss in mana, I like this lightning spells since they hit the target instantly so if your aim is on the target you will always hit, if there are several enemies close together I spam chain lightning, sometimes it leaps over 10 targets if they are within proximity of each other.

-Use healing spells whenever your low on HP.

 

Ive got 10 perk point in conjuration, 7 in destruction, 8 restoration, 9 alteration, 8 enchanting, 10 heavy armor and then some more in alchemy and smithing (to highly increase your armor rating).

Needless to say, when I use meelee it sucks, going in mage style makes me obliterate all my enemies while maintaining a pretty good balance in my mana pool.

And since I'm wearing heavy armor with a high armor rating, I'm pretty tough.

However I do not use the "impact" perk because it feels like cheating, seriously unbalanced that one!

Edited October 1, 2013 by Guest