Is Democracy on the Decline?

[Hardwaremaster]

Its one thing to have interests about various things (religion, Darwinism etc) its another to be ignorant of the very things that are contributing to your poverty of lack of health options or crime on your street.

 

But its not even bout that as to why Democracy is in decline its the failure or critical thinking in people that Hardwaremaster was trying to get to. Here's some examples:

 

Take the gun debate you had that guy who heads the NRA tell you "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." So lets assume that's true. Well Americans are the most heavily armed people on the planet and am i to assume your mostly bad guys, no I would hope your mostly good guys. So the question becomes why are you not already the safest country in the world instead of one of the most dangerous, If you take what he said as a truism then the equation doesn't work and you can know he was selling you line. He was lying. And just so you know I'm pro gun but you Americans with your no backgrounds check crap or gun show conventions where in some they don't even have to show ID and a whole host of other loopholes the gun manufacturers have put in place is just hillbilly crazyville.

 

Or how bout the public health option vs the private option. In that the HMO's and Insurance companies vigorously funded Tea Party types to oppose it claiming that a public option they wouldn't be able to compete with, using all the bogeyman words like socialism to stir people up. Yet has it not been private corporations telling us for the last 30+ years that they can do many of the things Government does better because they operate within the parameters of free market capitalism. So lets take that as a truism that they can do it (Healthcare) better than Government , if its better why wouldn't they be able to compete. Are we to assume that if there were both a public and private option that people would be choosing say in the case of heart attacks the option that offer a 50/50 (public) survival rate or a 80/20 (private) survival rate. So once the public option was defeated you ended up with Obama care a system wherein the Government mandates health insurance for the Health Insurers, literally a system where the government is lining up customers for private corporations on the taxpayers dime. Exactly what they (Corporations) wanted.

 

Total failure of critical thinking is why democracy is failing, people seem to feel more comfortable with being fed bullsh_t.

 

Thanks Harbringe, that is exactly what I was talking about, here is a list of extinct nations world wide, what type of government do people think they had. There is everything on this list from a Republic to Imperialism with everything else in between, there is not one difference between these governments when the ending result is completely the same. These nations were all a victim of the same thing: The Human Condition. Everything else is a symptom of a larger problem, this is such a massive topic you need to analyze it, then divide it down to its lowest common denominator, then attempt to chose what to you want to diagnose, if one tries to do so on the problem as a hole. You will face the same complication mathematicians have, and that is the obstacle of misconception, every time someone sees a issue, people should try to see the difference between the cause, the reaction, and the symptoms.

 

A debate is pointless if everyone is not on the same page, therefore, I have no concept of what Colourwheel and everyone else is disputing, because it was merely a heuristic that was used to convey a botheration and a dilemma, which was in fact a technicality, that was mistaken for the actual argument. I happen to see this a lot in person and its annoying, and its because some people get attached to the technicality, because they somehow believed that it was the point that characterizes the issue, regardless of the intention of the writer happened to have in question.

 

Anyway, at the moment there is certain several discussions that are running parallel to each other at the same time, that are nothing more then semantics and pedantics, that are being misconstrued as the quintessential foundation for the absolute problem of civilization. Which was distinguished as is Democracy on the Decline by the top title.

 

Edit: I would like to expound my point, further by adding this Hyperlink here, which talks about political language.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Hardwaremaster

[MajKrAzAm]

Lisnpuppy,

 

The problem isn’t with the people, it’s with the system. Normal people don’t care about politics. They don’t have the time or interest to follow political issues closely. If a democratic system requires voters to be educated or informed on political issues for it to function effectively, then the problem is clearly with the system itself. A system of governance must match the characteristics of its people, as well as the scale and complexity of society. Demanding higher standards from the electorate is pretty much an admission that the system is broken. It essentially amounts to saying that the electorate need to be replaced. Simply put, the increase in complexity of modern 20th society and governance made meaningful voter engagement practically impossible.

 

Democracy works in low-medium scale, traditional communities. Once you reach a moderate size you need democracy as a control on the elite themselves, because they are in a position to plunder the country's wealth. But when you reach the type of scale and complexity of modern day society, then democracy becomes ineffective because it requires a level of voter engagement that is impractical for ordinary people. The complexity and sheer size of modern government (caused by the emergence of mass society) makes meaningful voter engagement unworkable.

[Lisnpuppy]

Well Maj--I guess the point I have been supporting all along is that it isn't the system, it's the people. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Even if you decide to have some type of government where there is a ruling, benevolent and scientifically inclined despot....who decides who is right for that job? We can't even agree in this country about things that are widely, well-backed up theories about the world. Does one think that the fundamentalist Christians would throw in behind said despot? We can not agree on what to do about global warming or even if it exists...how old the universe is....evolution....if man and dinosaur walked the earth together or ALIENS!!

 

The democracy in this country is set up in order to let people learn and ease into government. There is direct democracy on the city level...direct and representative on the county and state and representative on the federal level. No, no person understands every, single thing but the basics...as I said...are easy enough should one put a mind to it. I point again to my quote from Mr. Jefferson:

 

"If once the people become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions."

 

This is what has happened and it has been happening for a long time. Much longer than my lifetime and probably my parents. I expect the worst of it started during WWII. People decided that the government knew what it was doing and stopped paying attention.

 

Now does everything in our current government work? Absolutely not. Helpful things would be say...term limits for Congress. Abolishing political parties. That isn't how things used to be done. At the beginning the president and vice-president were the two that got the most votes...regardless of party. How about more laws regarding the amount of money that can be given to candidates? Or...and this one really gets folks riled but it makes sense if you want people to not simply vote on name recognition or have the rich guy have a leg up on everyone..limit candidate spending for media and advertizement by using taxes. Everyone gets the same amount of funds to do whatever and the same amount of tv time, print ads, etc.

 

Or best of all...and you don't have to know the complexity of government to know when your congressperson is doing jack all. For instance the current congress has passed the least amount of legislation as pretty much any, EVER. A couple of million pissy Americans show up at the bottom of Capital Hill and not let them out for dinner they might actually get something accomplished.

 

Everything that happens is within our control. We let this happen. We are the ones that need to incite change. Even if that change is as you say...to no longer be the republic we are now...then we still have to take power back and make this change. If you don't know how it all works, you don't realize it is very broken and you never do anything to make it change.

 

Don't you think that is millions of people got as worked up as we do on this debate thread that maybe something might change? If people would put down their smart phones or step away from the computer (I know- heresy) or television...put down the potato chips and take say a few hours week to become more engaged in government...at any level that things just might be made different?

[Lisnpuppy]

Also as I stated in Hardware's post above..I did NOT REMOVE his post. I edited and removed MY POST. If his post was removed it was not by me. The only post I see edited as not relevant is the one I made. If I edit a post in any thread it is done in moderator yellow with an explanation. I also make it a practice to no longer post in threads in which I moderate in the debates section. As I am now doing so I will excuse myself from this.~Lisnpuppy

[TRoaches]

TRoaches...what does that have to do with anything?

Considering the fact that people who oppose the law without spending the time necessary to read and comprehend 900+ pages of it have been held up as examples of the cause of the decline of democracy and described as "ignorant" and "uninformed" I would say that it has everything to do with the topic.

 

 

You all I think are missing the forest for the trees. We aren't talking about a specific thing..she used it as an example to get a point across and as usual you try to get people on a technicality.

 

 

One of the premises expressed in this thread by colourwheel and yourself is that democracy is plagued by the "ignorant" and "uninformed" electorate. Colourwheel pointed to those who oppose the ACA but have not read the text of the law as an example of this ignorant, uninformed electorate.

 

As I stated earlier, if you truly believe that the electorate is ignorant and uninformed then there are only two possibilities when it comes to how you perceive yourself as a member of that electorate: You are either more intelligent and informed than the ignorant uninformed masses, or you are just as ignorant and uninformed as the rest. I am attempting to illustrate that if anything it is the later is most likely true. If this is the case then it seems a bit counter-productive to condemn the opposition as ignorant and uninformed.

 

 

Go outside and stand on a street corner with a clipboard. Ask if someone supports any issue you that you want...then ask some followup questions to see if they actually KNOW anything about it. I bet you would be sadly surprised.

 

 

I very much doubt that I would be surprised. I am also quite confident that, given the oppurtunity to ask you trivia questions about history or politics face to face, I could achieve a similar "gotcha" moment with you as well. If this were to happen it would not prove you to be unqualified to act as a citizen any more so than it would for the people who I meet on that street corner.

 

Simply pleading for "more education" as a solution to democracy's ills is no solution at all. It is the same sort of feel-good nonsense that the politicians themselves spout in lieu of actual solutions.

 

You expressed, in a debate forum, a premise that I disagree with and I am debating the point. My premise, which I attempted to illustrate in a way that you described as a "technicality", is that if anything threatens democracy it is the marginalization of nearly any alternative to the status quo, using language ranging from the very diplomatic "too far from center" to the more aggressive "extreme wacko lunatic fringe left/right wing idiocy" to the downright offensive (but moderator-tolerated) remarks that spz2 made stating that I should be "marked illegible for breeding" (btw, spz2, the correct word in that context would be "ineligible") and "banned from the planet" because of the "stupidity" that I expressed in my acknowledgement of a person's right to their religious beliefs (beliefs which, I'll have you know, I do not share in the least despite your assumption, based on my stated support of a human right to mental freedom, that I should "go back to reading (my) f***in bible" ) and my assertion that a well known scientific theory is.....a theory. That sort of mass-intolerance of any line of thinking that strays even slightly outside of the boundaries of thought that are drawn around us by the extra-governmental centers of power that control our governments, our media, and, by extension of those two forces, the mass-consciousness of our society is what has killed democracy. Pleading for "more education" as a solution is, in the end, nothing more than a plea for MORE of that sort of thought control.

 

Dismissing my premise as the result of a lack of understanding is just another example of this idea that you seem to have that things would be better if only everyone else could rise to your own level of understanding. It is arrogant, and arrogance is not a productive place from which to begin if you truly want to explore ways to improve the society in which you live.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

to the downright offensive (but moderator-tolerated) remarks that spz2 made stating that I should be "marked illegible for breeding" (btw, spz2, the correct word in that context would be "ineligible") and "banned from the planet" because of the "stupidity" that I expressed in my acknowledgement of a person's right to their religious beliefs (beliefs which, I'll have you know, I do not share in the least despite your assumption, based on my stated support of a human right to mental freedom, that I should "go back to reading (my) f***in bible" )

If you made a report on this I didn't see it. I have not been here full time of late. You assume that because I participate that I read every single line in every single post. I do not. Shame on me for not but I don't always have the time. Thus I did not see the post from spz2 to which you refer. Do not assume that because something exist on this site that it is "tolerated." Find the post and turn it in.

 

As it is 3:45 AM at present and its my birthday and wedding anniversary I was on my way to bed. However since you seem to have made an incorrect assumption I wanted to let you know what you needed to do to get resolution. Anything else another moderator will need to address.

 

I at no time meant to insult you though you seemed to have taken it as such. I stated what I felt and only Colour can say if I was correct in what her intentions were. Goodnight and good luck.~Lisnpuppy

[TRoaches]

@Lisnpuppy: I did not report it, and therefore probably should have left the "moderator-tolerated" bit out, but I mentioned that it was tolerated to illustrate the point that attacks on those who express ideas considered outside of the mainstream of political or social thought are generally tolerated, which ties in to my premise about what has caused our democracy to decline. I surely could have worded it better. No offense was given by you, and none was taken by me.

Edited September 24, 2013 by TRoaches

[spz2]

@TRoaches I lived with a religious and abusive mom , i'm sorry but you seemed like a closeted religious nut atm and if it's anything i hate more than a religious nut that may be a closeted religious nut . Anyways if i insulted you or not i don't know for sure. If someone would say something harsh as "fag" to me i wouldn't feel insulted cuz i know i'm not gay :) , they are just words . Unless you felt insulted by the idea of atheism /anti religion, then say it , because i know that is most likely to be the case more so than my lack of manners. For my beliefs( or rather , knowledge) i will not apologize .

[Hardwaremaster]

Also as I stated in Hardware's post above..I did NOT REMOVE his post. I edited and removed MY POST. If his post was removed it was not by me. The only post I see edited as not relevant is the one I made. If I edit a post in any thread it is done in moderator yellow with an explanation. I also make it a practice to no longer post in threads in which I moderate in the debates section. As I am now doing so I will excuse myself from this.~Lisnpuppy

 

This post will be completely of topic as I would like to clarify what happened. I could not find my original post, due to some very weird page or website error, that I'm not quite sure what it was about. I thought I was linking back to my post, which it had stated it had been removed by a moderator, but after running some tests and going back through this entire thread. It appeared as if all the page numbers were scrambled, and everyone's posts were out of place. Which makes me believe it might have been either server side lag, or lag on my end, regardless, I'm going to be looking into that. Because I have never seen anything that weird before, and I would like to prevent a repeat of this embarrassing situation. My apologizes to Lisnpuppy, it was either entirely my fault, or the Internets fault.

 

Also to further elaborate, what I mean by the pages were scrambled, was it appeared that posts and pages had been randomized. I only found out it was a bug, error, or some other problem; because when I came back all the threads posts had changed locations throughout this entire topic, which had actually massively confused me for a while.

 

And to top it all off, here is my original post, not deleted, it was completely untouched, which makes me an idiot.

 

Edit: The problem seems to have originated from a Mozilla Firefox plugin that allows the manipulation of scripts. After having disabled it, the problem seems to have corrected itself, so at least I know what caused my problem.

 

P.S. I will be removing that section from my post above, to avoid any further complications, sorry again for any inconveniences I may have caused, which just goes to show, always be mindful of your source of information.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Hardwaremaster

[TRoaches]

@TRoaches I lived with a religious and abusive mom , i'm sorry but you seemed like a closeted religious nut atm and if it's anything i hate more than a religious nut that may be a closeted religious nut . Anyways if i insulted you or not i don't know for sure. If someone would say something harsh as "fag" to me i wouldn't feel insulted cuz i know i'm not gay :smile: , they are just words . Unless you felt insulted by the idea of atheism /anti religion, then say it , because i know that is most likely to be the case more so than my lack of manners. For my beliefs( or rather , knowledge) i will not apologize .

You are flattering yourself in thinking that I felt terribly insulted by your post. Rather, I was using it as an example of the typical venomous reaction that one is likely to receive should they express a notion that violates the boundaries of acceptable thought that the vast majority of people enclose themselves within.

 

You seen unaware of the parallels between your reflexive condemnation of views with which you disagree and an evangelical religious fundamentalist's similar reflexive condemnation of beliefs that run counter to their view. I did not even endorse the views that you felt it necessary to condemn and mock me for; I only acknowledged a right to possess them. In truth I am quite opposed to religion in general, but that does not mean that I have any desire to mock the religious beliefs of others or impose my beliefs upon them. You have shown that you are quite willing to do both of those things, which makes you philosophically similar to the likes of Fred Phelps. Even Pat Robertson refrains from publicly stating that he "hates" those with whom he disagrees.

 

Think about that for a bit: You have shown yourself to be more dogmatic and vitriolically preachy than Pat Robertson has ever been, and your preferred method of preaching is via verbal abuse. Your mom must be so proud! You are the absolute personification of the type of group-thinking people that are described by this quote:

 

“We laugh at sheep because sheep just follow the one in front. We humans have out-sheeped the sheep, because at least the sheep need a sheep dog to keep them in line. Humans keep each other in line. And they do it by ridiculing or condemning anyone who commits the crime, and that’s what it’s become, of being different.”

 

As long as our society is dominated by voices such as yours we will continue to spiral towards a completely homogenized public consciousness. Once diversity and individuality have been eradicated by you and your ilk democracy will be a quaint, obsolete relic of history because, at that point, everyone will be in agreement.