No Gods, No Masters: The Dwemer

[EnaiSiaion]

Of course they wanted power! They are described as being blasphemous, and scientifically advanced race that could even be quite cruel. Look what they did to at the Falmer. And why? Because they wanted someone to do the work that their machines couldn't do, and they didn't want to do. To think that they wanted it for any other reason than power... well I can't even think of one.

The idea you put forward of them being trapped in the void or in between planes is what Yagrum thinks happened, and me as well. I can't put forth the quality of an argument as Lachdonin can, mostly because he seems to be way better informed than us (and I thank you for all this rich info).

And to respond to your last thought; Yes they were a very smart race. Their machinery and architecture alone proves that. Albert Einstein said, "I made one great mistake in my life — when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made". Just because someone is smart, in this case Kagrenac, the chief proponent of using the Heart of Lorkhan to bring into being Numidium, can make mistakes. To note, a lot of Dwemer didn't think it was a good idea to tamper wit the heart. Making the argument that miscalculations could bring about a catastrophic error.

 

Disappearing without a trace is not a blasphemous act against Azura. If that was the intended outcome, it wouldn't have been a reason for the Chimer to start a holy war. Whatever the Dwemer wanted to happen must have been something that would negatively impact either the Chimer themselves or Azura. The fact that nothing bad did happen to either indicates that they didn't succeed.

 

Or perhaps the whole blasphemy angle was only propaganda and Vivec just saw an opportunity to become a god.

 

Which leaves a question: if the device is apparently capable of making an entire race disappear, could it be capable of turning an entire race black? The Tribunal did manage to use it to augment their own power, and then the Chimer turned into Dunmer and the Dunmer claim it was Azura's curse. Perhaps the Tribunal caused it through their tinkering with foreign atomic hardware and decided to blame a Daedra instead to avoid an uprising.

 

 

As for the whole god, thing... One must apply definitions to the universe in question, not use them wholesale. If we translated definitions straight from our reality and applied them to the Elder Scrolls universe, Dragons would be Wyverns, and Spriggans would be Dryad. Within the context of the universe, gods are entities with the power to warp and construct reality. Not necessarily build worlds, but rather create physical law. We're not even sure if all Et'ada qualify for this, though the Aedra and Daedra certainly do.

 

 

I wonder why people worship gods in TES.

 

The point of worship in RL religions is the expectation that the worshipper will benefit in some way. But the Aedra don't really do anything and are at best role models and at worst irrelevant. Perhaps the appeal of Talos is that he's one of the only "gods" that can be related to.

 

Daedra are the ones who actually set things in motion. You can see them, you can challenge them for a golden fiddle and they are why dunmer are dun. However there is little reason to worship most of them unless you are a psychopath or a Dunmer. You're much more likely to want the likes of Vaermina out of your head than to commune with them, and becoming a disciple of Boethiah will probably get you killed or thrown under the bus by Boethiah. So why...?

[ThatFellowDutch]

 

 

 

It was LadyNerevar on the Bethesda forums who first pointed me towards MK's statements, which at the time were buried deep in the Bethesda Forums... Now her links to them are probably as deep as the statements were when I saw them... She and I have had several discussions on the Dwemer, mostly pertaining to the apparent inconsistencies between their society, as portrayed by Yagrum, Vivec and Divayth Fyr, and what we see in Skyrim.

 

Hmm.. I'll have to dig around there, see what I can't find. I'd really like to hear about these inconsistencies as well, I haven't played Oblivion or Morrowind in years, hell I don't even own them right now!. I'm actually relatively new to TES believe it or not. I mean I've played them sense they came out. But I was a teenager with an attention span of all of 13 minutes. So I never read into it much, the "Yeah I'm gunna be a Nord and KILL STUFF!" mentality. Then the army happened and consoles became inconvenient to lug around so I went computer, and will never look back. Now I can truly appreciate TES for what they are, computer games... and I can mod them!

 

 

 

I generally feel that this is a somewhat important consideration. Vivec tells us that Dumac didn't know about the whole of Kagrenac's plan, and Dumac was the king of the Dwemer. This indicates Kagrenac has a great deal of power and influence, that he could keep such a secret from the king of his race. We also know that other Tonal Architects were writing about the risks of tampering with the Heart (I think the Egg of Time deals with this, been awhile since I played Morrowind and spoke to Yagrum) telling us that some Dwemer suspected things could to catastrophically wrong.

 

It's possible that Kagrenac's plan was to become the Numidium himself by consuming the power of his entire race. It would certainly explain why he kept details from his King, and why he seems to have ignored the voice of his peers.

 

As for Dwemer knowledge... Don't feel bad, there is always more to learn in the Elder Scrolls universe. I just learned this week that the Mane is a moon-god, nor just a very hairy Khajiit!

 

 

I agree, a lot of times people (myself included) make out that the Dwemer were all on the same page about the idea, where as that's just not true. I myself can't help it some times.

 

I must admit, I never really thought about the angle that Kagrenac was doing it to advance himself at the expense of his own people. I must say though it makes perfect sense when you think about it. It paints an interesting new light on the subject. Luckily it only changes my view a little bit. But I also keep numerous theories floating around in my head. So thank you.

 

 

I know all the common theories you are talking about, but i forget some them usually as well as other lore-stuff, and cant stop facepalming)

My general idea was about that all we know about dwemers, is a knowledge, given by scholars, and we know, that trusting their theories is not always a good idea.

And saying that Numidium was a metal god, they wanted to bring to life, is something really odd. Since they do not worship Et'Ada, i highly doubt, that they started worshipping machine-god (sounds warhammerish). And resurrecting an actual god seems logical, since its his heart, they found. I say, its a very heretic idea, but why not...

Damn. I got to work)

Was going to make a huge post, but have no time((

So, why don't you like my new-born theory?

 

Edit: I remember reading somewhere about the Kagrenac and his plan, and that it was unknown to most dwemers. Well this is much more usual thing in TES. A very usual desires, leading to the massive events.

 

 

 

 

Hey no problem man, we all have brain farts. But to get to the meat and bones of it.

 

It's not that I don't like the idea. It's just that I can't see why the Dwemer would want to bring back Lorkhan. After that interesting piece of information Lachdonin dropped about Kagrenac being motivated by his OWN desire to become an immortal, at the expense of his own people, by becoming Numidium himself, it's made me reconsider my whole idea of the event. The power angle still works, but now instead of the whole race achieving said goal (What I thought) it's just the one guy at everyone else's expense. But the thing with bringing Numidium to life as a "New Artificial God" (Minus the treachery angle) was to create their own deity that they approved of, by transferring the divine essence of the Heart of Lorkhan into Numidium, they hoped to achieve this. It was also a powerful weapon. Tiber Septim used Numidium to destroy the first Aldmeri Dominion if I remember correctly. Thus giving the Dwemer a HUGE field advantage over EVERYONE. It kind of reminds me of something Douglas Adams would approve of (If he was into this sort of thing).

 

I await your huge post with anticipation

 

(To let you all know) I realized something (just moments ago) that my OCD just could not let go of. I FORGOT THE DAMN "a" IN "That" OF MY DAMN USER NAME UGHHH!!! Well I couldn't stand for that. So I had to recreate my account this time done correctly. So it's still me, and my OCD has subsided, sorry I know it's irrational, but it's just the way I am.

Edited September 20, 2013 by ThatFellowDutch

[Lachdonin]

(To let you all know) I realized something (just moments ago) that my OCD just could not let go of. I FORGOT THE DAMN "a" IN "That" OF MY DAMN USER NAME UGHHH!!! Well I couldn't stand for that. So I had to recreate my account this time done correctly. So it's still me, and my OCD has subsided, sorry I know it's irrational, but it's just the way I am.

 

 

Make sure you get the Mods to close down your other account, as having more than one account is frowned upon round these parts.

 

As for the inconsistencies... A brief overview is that in Morrowind, the 'experts' paint the image that the Dwemer were an intellectual, relatively tolerant people more than willing to accept others into their fold, so long as their philosophies were compatible. Divayth Fyr goes so far as to declare them a 7th Great House and likens them more to an organization like the Mages Guild or the Psijic Monks rather than a separate race of Mer. In Skyrim, however, they are sadistic, manipulative and deceptive, brutally enslaving the Falmer and creating rather nefarious torture devices. Somewhere there's been a disconnect between what we see in Skyrim, and what the experts have told us in the past.

[swiftfoxmark2]

 

(To let you all know) I realized something (just moments ago) that my OCD just could not let go of. I FORGOT THE DAMN "a" IN "That" OF MY DAMN USER NAME UGHHH!!! Well I couldn't stand for that. So I had to recreate my account this time done correctly. So it's still me, and my OCD has subsided, sorry I know it's irrational, but it's just the way I am.

 

 

Make sure you get the Mods to close down your other account, as having more than one account is frowned upon round these parts.

 

As for the inconsistencies... A brief overview is that in Morrowind, the 'experts' paint the image that the Dwemer were an intellectual, relatively tolerant people more than willing to accept others into their fold, so long as their philosophies were compatible. Divayth Fyr goes so far as to declare them a 7th Great House and likens them more to an organization like the Mages Guild or the Psijic Monks rather than a separate race of Mer. In Skyrim, however, they are sadistic, manipulative and deceptive, brutally enslaving the Falmer and creating rather nefarious torture devices. Somewhere there's been a disconnect between what we see in Skyrim, and what the experts have told us in the past.

 

 

I think it is implied that the Dwemer were just another race like all the others. Each one has their own inherit flaws that seem to perpetuate throughout the entire timeline. They had a unique culture, but so do a lot of the other races of Tamriel, many of which are foreign to each other. If anything, this is one of the reasons I like the Elder Scrolls universe so much as it demonstrates an imperfect world with heroes and villains of all kinds.

 

There is nothing inconsistent about it really. What we see in Skyrim is really just their greatest sin, although I question the logic of blinding a race you wish to enslave, assuming that was the intention.

 

When you look at them as a whole, you get a full range of actions and intentions that are good, evil, or neutral. You have to look at them on an individual basis. For all we know, there were Dwemer who opposed the blinding of the Falmer but whose concerns were overriden by ruling authorities or radical factions within their own society.

 

More than likely, the Betrayed were created due to the Dwemer's understanding of what the Night of Tears was really about (the Eye of Magnus) and their own fear that the Falmer would one day attempt to take control of one of their own major projects. The Falmer did kill off an entire Nedic settlement in the name of capturing what is essentially an infinite magical battery.

This doesn't make what the Dwemer did any less evil, but it certainly demonstrates the possibility that they feared the Falmer and fear makes people do cruel and destructive things.

 

As for their disappearance, who can say? All theories seem valid, even the ones that are unsubstantiated. But the ultimate reason is probably something that no one ever considered and it is something that I think will be revealed in a future Elder Scrolls game. I can definitely see the Dwemer's return as one of conquest and a great war.

[ThatFellowDutch]

 

Make sure you get the Mods to close down your other account, as having more than one account is frowned upon round these parts.

 

 

I did, I didn't even think about the double account thing until shortly after the fact. But does that mean the topic will be closed? I hope not. This is the first time one of my own has gotten so much attention. Not that it's really BOOMING, but for me this is good.

 

 

 

 

 

I think it is implied that the Dwemer were just another race like all the others. Each one has their own inherit flaws that seem to perpetuate throughout the entire timeline. They had a unique culture, but so do a lot of the other races of Tamriel, many of which are foreign to each other. If anything, this is one of the reasons I like the Elder Scrolls universe so much as it demonstrates an imperfect world with heroes and villains of all kinds.

 

There is nothing inconsistent about it really. What we see in Skyrim is really just their greatest sin, although I question the logic of blinding a race you wish to enslave, assuming that was the intention.

 

When you look at them as a whole, you get a full range of actions and intentions that are good, evil, or neutral. You have to look at them on an individual basis. For all we know, there were Dwemer who opposed the blinding of the Falmer but whose concerns were overriden by ruling authorities or radical factions within their own society.

 

More than likely, the Betrayed were created due to the Dwemer's understanding of what the Night of Tears was really about (the Eye of Magnus) and their own fear that the Falmer would one day attempt to take control of one of their own major projects. The Falmer did kill off an entire Nedic settlement in the name of capturing what is essentially an infinite magical battery.

This doesn't make what the Dwemer did any less evil, but it certainly demonstrates the possibility that they feared the Falmer and fear makes people do cruel and destructive things.

 

 

Hmm, that's a good thought. Maybe it was just the Dwemer of Skyrim acting on their own, for better or worse. Much in the same way that Kagrenac did in his tampering with the Heart of Lorkhan. After all ,I can't honestly remember, but, didn't the Falmer only inhabit areas of Skyrim, or round about? Where as the Dwemer inhabited quite a wide berth?

 

 

 

As for their disappearance, who can say? All theories seem valid, even the ones that are unsubstantiated. But the ultimate reason is probably something that no one ever considered and it is something that I think will be revealed in a future Elder Scrolls game. I can definitely see the Dwemer's return as one of conquest and a great war.

 

 

I agree, I love to hear new thoughts (Or even reoccurring thoughts) on the subject. Especially one such as this.

 

And I couldn't agree more with the return of the Dwemer, I actually really hope for it. BUT will it be a return of conquest and war or confusion and strife? I don't deny that conquest is indeed possible, even likely, but only 50% so. If they return there are things to consider about the events in between their disappearance and return (From their perspective). Will they have any idea of what's happened? Or will they simply show up completely befuddled by what' going on? Possibly ending up in a similar situation as the Dunmer after the eruption of Red Mountain. Further more, were they actually conscious of what happened to them. If so, and your right, they would of needed to amass a force (one that would be quite sizable after this amount of time). And IF this is the case, where in the hell are they returning from where they would be able to do such a thing! This is all conjecture, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't kind of hoping for this topic to come up.

[majormittens]

OP's post about the Dwemer being stuck in time like Alduin was is really interesting.

We know that they did disappear all at once, without a trace, so time travel seems to be a logical conclusion. I certainly don't think they just died out all of the sudden and vaporized into thin air, it would be really anti-climatic. Wasn't there like one living dwemer dude in Morrowind though?

Edited September 20, 2013 by majormittens

[MidevalGuy]

The developers could easily write a return of the Dwemer in the next TES game and have it be an event that happens after Skyrim, when the next game takes place. Skyrim takes palce 200 years after Oblivion, so having a lot of time pass between now and then allows for a efficient exposition of the returning Dwemer while focusing on the main plot at the same time.

 

I don't speak for anybody else, but I would not like a story line where you and whatever empire/land/allies are fighting off a Dwemer invasion. I feel that would turn TES into a very generic FPS -- Even though you use swords, bows and magic -- Because what you'd be fighting a good percentage of the time would be robots, more or less. It's great way for Bethesda to get the "Teen" rating and an even bigger audience, but like I wrote, this would make the game less appealing to me... And probably a lot of others, too. It would turn TES into a medieval Call of Duty, IMO.

 

The appeal of the Dwemer is the mystery surrounding their disappearance.

 

If Bethesda takes that way, then they become just another race in Tamriel.

 

The other main appeal of the Dwemer is they are the only race (besides Imperials, Nords) who most closely resemble the player in general.

 

Dwemers are (were) technologically advanced like most Western societies, and the cautionary tale Bethesda may, or may not be telling is something big happened, an extinction level event, that may or may not have been self-inflicted by the Dwemer due to whatever reason(s). Technology (Numidium) and mysticism (Heart of Lorkhan) played a large role, obviously, but the age old "human" adage of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" could probably serve as the Dwemers epitaph if it turns out this is why an entire race was wiped out, transported to another plane, cast forward in time, etc.

 

Speaking of which, Bethesda could make a huge fourth wall joke and say the Dwemer used an Elder Scroll to travel forward in time and ended up becoming... Us (the players in 2013, 2014, etc)!

[ThatFellowDutch]

OP's post about the Dwemer being stuck in time like Alduin was is really interesting.

We know that they did disappear all at once, without a trace, so time travel seems to be a logical conclusion. I certainly don't think they just died out all of the sudden and vaporized into thin air, it would be really anti-climatic. Wasn't there like one living dwemer dude in Morrowind though?

 

Yagrum Bagarn is the Dwemer from Morrowind, and he believes that his race is either stuck in some far off outer realm, or completely gone. My idea for them being stuck/thrown forward in time idea comes from the fact that Kagrenac was working on the Heart of Lorkhan, who was a god (Or possibly a Daedra due to knewly found information thanks too Lachdonin, but that's another issue). Alduin was hurled through time by an Elder Scroll, a piece of the Divines made substance. Where as Alduin was cast out some what purposefully, I purpose that the Dwemer did it to themselves on accident. And sense they are all linked through they're racial trait called the Calling (Kind of like Telepathy) that this affected them all simultaneously. This theory is not with out holes though. In fact, Arniel Gane drives the biggest nail in it. The Dragonborn gaining the spell "Summon Arniels Shade" supports one of Lachdonins claims that the Dwemer were all consumed by Numidium, the "Machine God" the Dwemer were building, by similar means as my theory.

 

 

 

I don't speak for anybody else, but I would not like a story line where you and whatever empire/land/allies are fighting off a Dwemer invasion. I feel that would turn TES into a very generic FPS -- Even though you use swords, bows and magic -- Because what you'd be fighting a good percentage of the time would be robots, more or less. It's great way for Bethesda to get the "Teen" rating and an even bigger audience, but like I wrote, this would make the game less appealing to me... And probably a lot of others, too. It would turn TES into a medieval Call of Duty, IMO.

 

 

I lean towards this to an extent. Though it would be fun to take on a Dwemer invasion force, I would get much more joy out of being able to actually play as a Dwemer character. Maybe have it be a quest, regardless of race, to help rebuild or refurbish a home or ruin (maybe a secluded patch of Mountains or something) for the newly returned Dwemer. Who would, as I stated earlier, be in a similar boat as many Dunmer were after the eruption of Red Mountain, who knows.

Edited September 20, 2013 by ThatFellowDutch

[swiftfoxmark2]

I will say that a Dwemer invasion would be more akin to what was done in Oblivion, so it's not the best of ideas.

 

As far as their disapperance, they may simply have ceased to exist. Because officially Kagrenac was trying to make all Dwemer gods, thereby targeting all Dwemer, he may have caused a kind of reality paradox. In order to resolve it, whatever forces behind creation basically forced them all out of existence entirely. Yagrum Bagarn basically confirms this by stating that no piece of them exists in any plane of known existence.

 

This is similar to the Warp in the West where all seven outcomes of Daggerfall, all contradictory, basically occurred through divine interference in order to resolve.

 

And this may be just a coincidence, but both incidents involved the Numidium in some fashion. So whatever this golem was, besides being a powerful weapon, it appears to have charactoristics similar to Elder Scroll. Perhaps understanding how it was going to make all of the Dwemer into gods might provide clues as to what actually happened.

 

This is all speculation, of course. In reality, I doubt the writers of the lore really have a concrete idea for what happened.

[MidevalGuy]

 

This is all speculation, of course. In reality, I doubt the writers of the lore really have a concrete idea for what happened.

 

Probably not, but that's what's so appealing about the Dwemer, IMO.

 

They are an enigma, a puzzle that will (hopefully!) never be solved because that would take the whole fun out of them since the mystery of their disappearance is what defines them just like the legends of Atlantis, and Ancient Astronauts define those people even though there is no definitive proof they ever existed.