*RANT* How The BoS Is Disgraced In FNV

[Fistandilius]

Interesting topic & some good points but it does seem to be a matter of personal preference/opinion being put forward by Fistandilius & kkk122 that has been the crux of the matter.

 

To me, FO3 lacks the depth of FO:NV. It's storyline is weak and the ending is ridiculous. It shoe-horned in all the troupes & references from the previous releases but did so so ham fistedly that it still causes controversy now.

 

The strength though of these games is this: THEY CAN BE MODDED! There are mods for both games that vastly improve on the original work. The only down side is the plot line for FO3 can't be altered even though its crying out for a total rewrite.

 

How does the story line make more sense in FONV?

 

Someone just about kills you and you decide to go after them anyways.... Then let's recap. Benny is ripping off mister house... and he decides to.... head right back to new vegas to the tops, exactly where Mr. House can find him and where Mr House has complete rule of New Vegas. What part of that exactly makes sense?

 

At least in FO3 you're pretty much forced by the overseer's guards to leave vault 101 and whether or not you decide to pursue your dad everything else comes naturally at that point.

 

 

 

Plus this pretty much says it all about FO3:

 

 

 

i didn't like all ending in FONV, FO3 made more sense.

Guys, the Enclave can't work the giant water condenser, obviously we should throw all our resources at them in a desperate attempt to stop them from... Actually I don't know what from, but a big, costly battle sounds fun right? Also our useless giant robot now works because some woman who claims to be a scientist and spent 20 years failing to clean water took a look.

 

 

 

How is that the case at all? First off, the enclave have the best scientists in the world with the exception of the Institute. The BoS scavenges tech throughout the wasteland and they point out that their equipment is vastly inferior to the Enclave, not to mention the advantage they have of a being led by a super computer with real ai.

 

Then on top of that they acquired the GECK from you, and they have Anna Holt feeding them all the information they need to start the purifier.

 

In fact, by the time you get in there, they have everything up and running except the start sequence. A simple 3 digit code. It's not like the purifier had an actual security system, they had the BoS guarding the place previously when Catherine was still alive, so if the Lone Wanderer hadn't attacked when he did, it would have been a simple matter of the Enclave taking the console apart and bypassing the start sequence.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Fistandilius

[kkk122]

1. Seriously? "Can't" as in "cannot be allowed to" not "are not able to". That's the entire reason Li even presents to the elder: "It's not right". Of course they have the ability to start it (well not really, since they do not have the code, BTW when you give them one during your interrogation the guy on the intercom says that he lost another man. Apparently the super-advanced Enclave has not yet managed to comprehend what robots are. Or maybe they didn't buy Broken Steel and the robot just refused).

 

2. How would House have ever found out about Benny if it weren't for you not dying exactly? He would have killed you, buried and left. Granted there still was Victor, who would pass the info to House, but I really doubt Benny was aware of that one. For all he knew House was just as oblivious as everyone else.

[MarchUntoTorment]

I'mma just leave this here -

 

[Fistandilius]

1. Seriously? "Can't" as in "cannot be allowed to" not "are not able to". That's the entire reason Li even presents to the elder: "It's not right". Of course they have the ability to start it (well not really, since they do not have the code, BTW when you give them one during your interrogation the guy on the intercom says that he lost another man. Apparently the super-advanced Enclave has not yet managed to comprehend what robots are. Or maybe they didn't buy Broken Steel and the robot just refused).

 

Ok, so I guess I misunderstood. Either way, how are you ok with this? Scientists spent 20 years developing a water purifier, the Enclave swoops in with their troops and takes over the project, kills a woman because James didn't cooperate according to their point of view, then kidnaps you and steals the GECK, and you're just ok letting them take over so they can extort people for clean water?

 

 

 

2. How would House have ever found out about Benny if it weren't for you not dying exactly? He would have killed you, buried and left. Granted there still was Victor, who would pass the info to House, but I really doubt Benny was aware of that one. For all he knew House was just as oblivious as everyone else.

 

Did you even pay attention to the game? Victor didn't just happen to be in the right place at the right time. House was monitoring the chip the whole time. When he realized what happened, he alerted Victor to the situation.

 

As far as Benny goes, are you serious? Half the frig'n Mohave was reporting his location throughout the entire main quest. He suddenly disappears from the Tops, is reported as being seen with members of the Khans and just happens to frolic around half the Wasteland at the same time as the Platinum Chip disappears and he expected House not to know? Really? Not to mention he had absolutely ZERO plan to get into the Lucky 38, let alone how to find, let alone kill Mr. House, but he suddenly thought he'd be safe and sound right across the street from him in the center of Securiton controlled territory?

 

Not to mention he didn't even know for certain what the Platinum Chip was until he retrieved it and showed it to Yes Man. All he knew was that Mr. House was having something important sent across the Mohave. Important enough to send 6 Couriers to make sure it wasn't tracked. In fact when you do the Independent questline, if you kill Mr House before installing the Platinum Chip and then install Yes Man into House's mainframe, Yes Man tells you that he didn't even know that the Platinum Chip was capable of upgrading the Securitons until he got into the mainframe and found the demonstration House had put together.

There's so many plot holes with Benny alone, it's ridiculous, not even counting the in game bugs.

[kkk122]

What's your point? If it's that Benny is a moron, then I agree. All he ever managed to do is throw a pulse grenade at a securitron and convince a Follower to reprogram it. Afterwards Yes Man was doing most of the thinking. Benny was just doing it. When Yes Man couldn't think of something Benny had no plan. He's just a jerk in a funny suit, who managed to outsmart a bunch of wastelanders and thinks he can take on the guy, who was prepared for the end of the world. Also, I never said Victor was there by accident - only that Benny probably didn't know about him being there.

 

And House would hardly kill Benny. Killing a head of the Chairmen, just like that, using a securitron would have seriously pissed the Chairmen off. I'm not saying House could not do that, I'm saying that risking a gang war in the middle of his Strip would be the definition of "bad for buisness" and killing their leader without proof (because "gone when the Chip disappeared" is not going to be enough to convince them) would probably end like that.

 

 

Someone just about kills you and you decide to go after them anyways....

 

you're just ok letting them take over so they can extort people for clean water?

Oh, so making me care about stuff done by characters in game is okay in FO3 but somehow makes no sense in NV?

Edited March 30, 2014 by kkk122

[Fistandilius]

What's your point? If it's that Benny is a moron, then I agree. All he ever managed to do is throw a pulse grenade at a securitron and convince a Follower to reprogram it. Afterwards Yes Man was doing most of the thinking. Benny was just doing it. When Yes Man couldn't think of something Benny had no plan. He's just a jerk in a funny suit, who managed to outsmart a bunch of wastelanders and thinks he can take on the guy, who was prepared for the end of the world. Also, I never said Victor was there by accident - only that Benny probably didn't know about him being there.

 

And House would hardly kill Benny. Killing a head of the Chairmen, just like that, using a securitron would have seriously pissed the Chairmen off. I'm not saying House could not do that, I'm saying that risking a gang war in the middle of his Strip would be the definition of "bad for buisness" and killing their leader without proof (because "gone when the Chip disappeared" is not going to be enough to convince them) would probably end like that.

 

My point is, the other poster who I was addressing before you decided to jump back in was arguing that the story in FONV was better than FO3. If you agree with me that Benny is a moron, then how is it a better story?

 

Let's reviews: First off, if Benny is a moron, what does that say about my character that he let Benny get the drop on him in the first place? It's not like Benny had some great strategy or an army of informants. He literally has zero power outside of the Tops except for whatever he can buy with his money. It was him and two Khans that were already weakened by a Cazadore attack. And yet our Courier who is supposed to be some bad**** who survives traveling across the Mohave on a regular basis, who Ulysses credits for creating and surviving the harshness of the divide was ambushed by a moron and two Khan goons?

 

Second, there is literally no point to my actions in regards to both recovering the chip and working for Mr. House (or the Legion for that matter). Mr. House paid me to make sure the chip got to New Vegas. Benny steals the chip and...... takes it to New Vegas. Where House is at the height of his power and could have literally taken the chip back from Benny whenever he wanted. Yet he feels compelled to hire my character who is supposedly so intriguing that Mr House and the Legion takes notice of him.... which might make sense if you actually did all the things that the main quest requires you to do, like save Primm, rescue the powder gangers from the Legion, clear the path for the Mohave Outpost, survive an ambush on the road to Novac, help the people of Novac, and break the standoff at Boulder Point... but this is an open world game. As you pointed out earlier in the thread, I can literally go around the Deathclaws and go to New Vegas and meet Mr. House on level 2. So why should Mr. House give a crap about my character?

 

Lastly, my motivation is supposedly revenge. Lets examine that from two angles shall we?

 

Revenge requires anger. How can I be angry about something I don't remember? My memories were wiped out by a bullet.

 

Then there's the fact that Benny killed me. I was literally dead and in a grave and the only thing that saved me was the fact that a) the bullet trajectory just happened to meet the astronomical probability of entering my brain in an area that didn't instantly cause me to go brain dead, or damage anything vital, b) Victor happened to be nearby to rush me to the doctor, and c) there happened to BE a doctor in this little podunk town that had the skill to perform difficult brain surgery by hand. If I know nothing else about the incident except for those three details that are told to me when I wake up, what made me think I had the skills to go after a guy that dangerous?

 

Oh, and you're right. Mr. House wouldn't kill Benny. But not because he's head chairman. Mr. House rules by fear and mystery. He wouldn't have any qualms about killing a chairman to make his power felt. The reason he wouldn't kill Benny is because he looks at everyone as a tool, and he uses them up until he's done with them.

 

Oh, so making me care about stuff done by characters in game is okay in FO3 but somehow makes no sense in NV?

 

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I never said anything about caring or not caring about stuff in NV. I'm telling you in order for ME to care about the story it has to make sense. But when I start adding things up and they don't start making sense, then my belief in the story is suspended.

 

FONV has a story that requires me to go along with what they're telling me. I'm supposed to feel angry and want revenge. They're telling me I'm supposed to feel that way. I don't feel that way.

 

FO3 has a completely open story for an open world. It doesn't have the arrogance to tell me how I'm supposed to feel. If I feel compelled to go after my dad I can leave the vault for that reason. If I feel threatened by the Overseer I can leave for that reason. If I feel like killing every mother f'er in the vault, I'm still gonna leave that vault because there isn't going to be a thing left in there for me to do after everyone is dead. One way or another the story makes sense at that point for me to leave the vault. After that I can choose to go after my dad, or work for Mr. Burke, or travel to Minefield, or do whatever the heck I want.

 

FONV requires me to follow the main quest for the story to even slightly make sense. If the game was linear, fine.. that would be one thing. But it's not . It's open world. I'm going to do things in the order I want to do them, or not do them at all.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Fistandilius

[peadar1987]

You don't have to follow Benny for the story to make sense. You can just go straight to New Vegas. You can just wander off into the hills and pretend you're a hermit, but if you want the plot to develop, you have to interact with it. There's more depth when you do that in New Vegas than in 3. Your big choices in 3? Kill President Eden or don't. Poison the water or don't. In New Vegas you can forgive Benny, kill him, join him, side with any of four factions, take their quests, solve them in a variety of different ways that have real outcomes for the people of the wasteland.

 

Of course it makes sense that the story doesn't develop for you if you don't interact with any of the major players in the wasteland, but there's a difference between being "forced" to talk to Mr. House at some point and decide how to deal with him, and being forced to side with the Brotherhood of Steel.

[Fistandilius]

You don't have to follow Benny for the story to make sense. You can just go straight to New Vegas. You can just wander off into the hills and pretend you're a hermit, but if you want the plot to develop, you have to interact with it. There's more depth when you do that in New Vegas than in 3. Your big choices in 3? Kill President Eden or don't. Poison the water or don't. In New Vegas you can forgive Benny, kill him, join him, side with any of four factions, take their quests, solve them in a variety of different ways that have real outcomes for the people of the wasteland.

 

Of course it makes sense that the story doesn't develop for you if you don't interact with any of the major players in the wasteland, but there's a difference between being "forced" to talk to Mr. House at some point and decide how to deal with him, and being forced to side with the Brotherhood of Steel.

 

Why would House want to hire you at all if you just left Goodsprings and went directly to New Vegas? The only thing you've ever done is loose his package and almost die. What possible reason could he have for wanting to even talk to someone like that let alone hire them? He already knows you don't have the chip. He already knows Benny has it. He already knows where Benny is. But he's going to hire you... the loser who lost the chip and has done absolutely nothing else but wander to New Vegas?

 

How does that make sense at all?

 

And here's another thing about everyone who complains that you can't join the Enclave in FO3. Why are video games supposedly more real if you have an option to side with the bad guys? There is probably a list of hundreds of organizations in real life that you could never in your life join, but in video games, every single faction is supposed to just give you a chance or else the developer's suck.

What sense does that make either?

 

Eden wanted to work with you. Autumn wanted to torture you and take your information by force and then likely kill or imprison you.

 

Besides. If you don't want to side with the BoS, there's nothing stopping you from blasting the Citadel at the end of the BS, is there?

[peadar1987]

 

You don't have to follow Benny for the story to make sense. You can just go straight to New Vegas. You can just wander off into the hills and pretend you're a hermit, but if you want the plot to develop, you have to interact with it. There's more depth when you do that in New Vegas than in 3. Your big choices in 3? Kill President Eden or don't. Poison the water or don't. In New Vegas you can forgive Benny, kill him, join him, side with any of four factions, take their quests, solve them in a variety of different ways that have real outcomes for the people of the wasteland.

 

Of course it makes sense that the story doesn't develop for you if you don't interact with any of the major players in the wasteland, but there's a difference between being "forced" to talk to Mr. House at some point and decide how to deal with him, and being forced to side with the Brotherhood of Steel.

 

 

Why would House want to hire you at all if you just left Goodsprings and went directly to New Vegas? The only thing you've ever done is loose his package and almost die. What possible reason could he have for wanting to even talk to someone like that let alone hire them? He already knows you don't have the chip. He already knows Benny has it. He already knows where Benny is. But he's going to hire you... the loser who lost the chip and has done absolutely nothing else but wander to New Vegas?

 

How does that make sense at all?

 

And here's another thing about everyone who complains that you can't join the Enclave in FO3. Why are video games supposedly more real if you have an option to side with the bad guys? There is probably a list of hundreds of organizations in real life that you could never in your life join, but in video games, every single faction is supposed to just give you a chance or else the developer's suck.

What sense does that make either?

 

Eden wanted to work with you. Autumn wanted to torture you and take your information by force and then likely kill or imprison you.

 

Besides. If you don't want to side with the BoS, there's nothing stopping you from blasting the Citadel at the end of the BS, is there?

 

 

 

Except you haven't just wandered to Vegas, at the very least you'll have had to sneak pask/kill deathclaws, Fiends, Super Mutants, Jackals, Vipers, Powder Gangers and Cazadores. And as House says, he can't just get the chip back with a full frontal assault on the casino, because then all Benny has to do is hold a gun up to the chip and hold House to ransom. Plus, you're an outsider, who has been shot in the head by Benny, House can be fairly confident you're not going to betray him and go over to Benny's side, unlike most other people in Vegas, whose loyalties are suspect at best.

 

As for your other point, because video games are not real life. Would you rather play as a random Vault 101 resident who never gets out? What about as a Megaton farmer who raises Brahmin for 30 years until he is vaporised when some clown sets off the bomb? Because those are both morel likely than being an ass-kicking 19 year old whose dad just happens to be the only person to leave the vault in years.

 

Don't get me wrong, I loved FO3, but I prefer games with more depth and choices, and I still think FO3s are very superficial. Yes, you can blow up the citadel, but please, how does that make any sense? If you're trying to play as an sort of believable character, you've just gone through a huge campaign, fighting alongside the Brotherhood, risking your life on countless occasions only to turn around and kill them all for no reason. I'm not saying you should be able to join the AntAgoniser faction, but a bit more depth is sorely needed.

[Danny159]

I still wanna see Veronica in charge of the New Vegas BOS ^^