Changes to soliciting ratings/file of the month votes

[SteGab1979]

A *tutorial* teaching people how to push buttons, that should be interesting! Should that happen, can I write foreword?

 

And, uh, by *any* means, NO OFFENSE!!! not

Edited June 12, 2009 by SteGab1979

[Andragorn]

An info screen saying that you can rate, give kudos, comment, vote for FotM ect... would not be a bad idea. I just today noticed my self this "tracking centre" function which seems very nice.

The info/tutorial could added to the same page as the login page, that way everybody would see it every time they login and functions as a reminder as well.

 

What comes to rating, the same system as the kudos would be best I think.

 

When thinking the file of the month; no one should need to add extra links for the voting buttons. I think it is just the same whether it says "this is a voting link" or "please please rate" as the result is the very same in both of the cases. How you express it is just a way trying to justify it.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Andragorn

[Stewb]

If a reminder for voting/tracking/rating was put in, i think that right after clicking the server in the download window you should get a reminder to do these things, with a nice screenshot of a dummy file showing you where you can do each thing. Would be a nice tutorial for new folk, alternatively have it as a tutorial option in members area. Dunno how this site works, and won't pretend to either, but i hope something like the latter could be introduced. Even just an article in the article database would be nice, with a link to it given after sign-up. It would certainly take away at least one of the file soliciting excuses :)

 

I think thats one of the longest posts i've written/typed.. :)

 

Edit: reading my post over, i should state that i meant a tutorial on how to rate/vote/whatever any file, not just some-one's own file, before some-one mis-understands.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Stewb

[einherjrar]

@Andragorn;

 

Providing a link to site functions that many people seem to be missing is different than issuing demands or requests;

 

I fail to see how honest criticism toward policy changes is a way of 'justifying it'. If merely providing a link to something is solicitation, then any form of notification or advertisement is as well.

 

No one recognizes the difference?

 

 

@The Band Wagon (@Everyone I guess now)

 

 

-When someone knocks on your door to ask if you'd like to support a worthy charity with a donation; that is solicitation.

 

-When someone calls you on the phone with an incredible credit card offer in your area, this is solicitation.

 

-When you walk into a fast food restaurant and look at the menu, that's not solicitation; that's a notification of the services that can be provided or selected (there may even be notifications on various surfaces).

 

-Now, if there were a sign next to an item on the menu that says 'eat me' or 'buy me' that is still only advertisement (which I can live without, though god forbid anyone should advertise or draw attention to their work).

 

Great artists throughout history have toiled in solitude to produce something Beautiful , Enriching, or Awe-Inspiring to share with those around them; Why would anyone expect FO3 Mod authors to be any different?

 

What is the point in producing something if no one sees it?

If that were the case I'd reconsider uploading anything for a game community that has classically had an overabundance of leeches, trolls, flamers and some really incredible snobs that have taken my breath away a time or two.

 

My humble wish is to produce something that will benefit others, but it won't enrich anyone's experience if no one ever happens to find it.

 

BTW- I admit that I really do get tickled when I'm checking out new or updated FO3 mods and I see that someone's screenshots are using any of the stuff I've brought into the game. Take that tiny, insignificant little thrill away and I've all but gone over to the other side that's producing more leeches and snobs than anything else; because it's a lot easier to criticize other peoples work (or just leech) than contribute to a project or try and construct something individually that others will be interested in giving feedback (comment/PM/vote/rate).

 

I didn't want to express my opinions this strongly before because there was still some trolling a few pages back that I didn't want to get sucked into.

 

For the record I'd like to see an end to 'actual' Solicitation, I don't mind Advertising (I expect it actually), and I think there should be no problems with Notifications.

 

-=I wonder how many of you think that nothing I've said here has any kind of merit and this is just sour grapes (whining)?=-

-ein

 

P.S. - I've met, spoken to, and had dealings with many thoughtful, kind, and decent people here on NEXUS, but their presence always seems to be overshadowed by a large mass of... petulant children.

 

Here's hoping (whoever you are) you are the former, not the latter.

 

 

EDIT: P.P.S. - I should mention that I've had solid dealings with at least some of the NEXUS staff, and there is no animosity between myself and the NEXUS staff; These are merely personal opinions regarding the recent changes,

-This is not an attempt at dissent or resistance to policy changes.

 

In case there is any doubt; of the staff I have dealt with; Without LHammonds or Buddah, 20th Century Weapons (among a few others) would not be available to the community (content of which is also a significant content contributor to the much vaulted FOOK).

 

-LHammonds has my eternal support and gratitude for providing some of the most basic (yet most essential) links to modeling resources, utilities, and other info on the NEXUS forums (and others) in early 2009. I would not have been able to launch my first mod (let alone the 20th Century Weapon Pack). Without his initial help and some few other members of the FO3 NEXUS community (VashTS comes to mind).

-Truly, LHammonds has been an inspiration to all active community forums members.

 

-Buddah has long ago gained my upmost respect and admiration for his reasonable approach and willingness to compromise (within certain boundaries), as well as act on information provided from sources other than NEXUS.

-(Specifically; the GSC Gameworld S.T.A.L.K.E.R. port controversy; which I can post a link to it's resolution, peacefully arbitrated by Buddah.)

 

-I have had no direct contact with the Administration, though I imagine TheDarkOne to be a reasonable and approachable person from his online statements, actions, and stated site policies.

 

I do not stand against policy, only against some opinions concerning that policy.

Edited June 13, 2009 by einherjrar

[VerbalEarthworm]

"Band Wagon"s come in all colours, for instance; the "Band Wagon" that was boarded by anyone and everyone adding rate/FotM links to their descriptions purely because they saw "someone else do it".

 

that doesn't and never has made anything "right".

 

Edit:

 

Q: when is a bandwagon not a bandwagon?

 

A: when it's a soapbox.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Verbal Earthworm

[hex0ff]

I think I'd like to comment here. I don't usually post much outside my own mod threads on nexus, but I think the topic is relevant to me since I'm currently leading the FOM vote. I did notice a comment early about buggy betas winning FOM, which I assume was largely directed at me.

 

Just for the record. I haven't solicited FOM votes for UV by clickthroughs or any other methods. I do however request in my readme that if people use the mod they rate it (note that I don't say 'rate it a 10' just rate it). Yes its a largely selfish thing to do, but for me requesting ratings has nothing to do with getting on lists (i'll get to the top 100 in a minute) but rather its a way of vindicating having spent such a large portion of my time on the mod. As a comparison. I have a much older mod (been up for well over a year) in which I didn't ask for any feedback, and which was also a hugely complicated and challenging mod. It's been rated some 21 times in all that time despite having a similar download count to UV (and many of those ratings only happened after people have seen my recent work and decided to go back to my older stuff). It does thus seem that if you don't explicitly ask people to rate they just don't bother.

 

I think its clear where I stand then. I don't think clickthrouhs are fair game (especially from other forums straight to the FOM vote) and in general I think FOM should not require/should actively discourage soliciting. I do however thing its acceptable to ask for ratings/comments - just not to ask for '10' ratings, and certainly not to offer anything in return.

 

UV has taken well in excess of a thousand hours or work, and the complexity of it, combined with the fact its a beta, because I simply haven't the resources to test it in every situation with every mod by myself, mean that some 75% of the comments I receive are bug reports. In the two weeks or so it's been available i've had over 500 posts, and at least 400 of them have contained a complaint of some kind, either of a bug or by someone who refuses to read the manual and demands answers. I've also had three full threads on the beth forums since release, similarly stuffed with bug reports.

 

What stops reading that from being soul destroying is the people that take the time to rate the mod. When a post containing a complaint also contains a line that essentially says 'i've taken the time to rate this' or 'i've rated this highly' it can really take the edge off.

 

But here's the thing. The rating system here *is* broken. It should work, however there's a culture here of 10 is good, everything else is bad. Unfortunately not everyone buys in to that. And there's the problem if there was a consistent understanding across the user base then there would be no problem, but there simply isn't. I know people don't mean it badly when they give me an eight or a nine. in most situations 9/10 is a brilliant review. But here its frustrating, as I watch single ratings make me yoyo around the top 100. It's also pretty disheartening to see every retex of a bikini with a few 10 ratings ostensibly considered 'better' (at least in terms of its average rating) than a thousand hour project. I'm not just referring to my own work here. The official average rating of midas magic is 9.94. According to average ratings, my first ever attempt at a mod (with 4 ratings of 10) is 'better.' So, surely the obvious answer seems to be to just swap the votes for a thumbs system. easy.

 

Well no. and here's the kicker. A thumbs system doesn't by nature take into account the age of the mod. The top 100 is largely populated by an 'old guard' of mods (because rating count is taken into account). Sure the older and more mature mods are excellent, but if you have a hall of fame based on a count of thumbs up (especially if its moderated by download count) older mods have a huge advantage.

 

We're now starting to see the completion of some massive projects. The elswyr mod, the dark brotherhood chronicles, the underdark, silgrad tower etc. These mods have in some cases been in development since OB came out. Their complexity and the time and dedication that has gone into them is phenomenal, and in the system I've just described, they'd have a hell of a time getting into a hall of fame, because many mods have two or three years worth of ratings on them. And of course as the options for mods expand (i'm thinking of OBSE17 here and the forthcoming changes for 18 as well as the ever improving OBSE plugin API) future mods can and probably will change the game in ways that simply weren't possible before.

 

So what could be done. Well I have two suggestions on top of the thumbs system, which incidentally I approve of fully, though i'd rather have only thumbs up and no downs. It's pretty crushing when somebody just comes in and tells you your work is cr*p. Mods take a lot of time - even cr*p ones, and people that don't mod themselves often don't realise the effort that has to be invested to bring any mod to fruition. I have never personally given a mod a poor rating - I just don't rate it if I don't like it.

 

So to my ideas.

 

1) When doing the maths for figuring out rankings, the respective age of the mods is taken into account as well as the ratio of votes to downloads.

 

2) Instead of having one big hall of fame (top 100) mods are split more into categories. Frankly I think its silly to compare something like midas magic to something like frostmourne (to take the top two mods as example). I don't think you *can* compare them. So i'd suggest splitting into some (broad) categories.

 

Models, Quests, Gameplay Changes, Utilities, Saves

 

Obviously there's going to be some crossover. Take OOO for example. It's largely gameplay changes, but it does contain some quests. or MMM, which again is gameplay changes but includes many many models. I'd say it should be up top the modder to pick *one* of the categories in which their mod can compete.

 

Now this still doesn't solve the problem of 'big' mods vs 'small' mods. Should they be separated? Is it fair to compare something that takes a thousand hours to something that took 10 minutes? What if that thing the took ten minutes makes a fundamental and incredible change to the game. As an example I put forward the chase camera mod. It changes one global, but it makes the game actually playable in third person. To me that's a *vital* mod, but would I feel short changed to see it above Deadly reflex in a list. Yeah, probably. One might sat the same thing about comparing something like the armamentarium (1000s of items) to a mod that adds one stunning set of armour.

 

So in my ideal world we'd have several halls of fame. separated by category and internally by 'small' 'medium' and large.

 

I guess that's probably enough rambling from me...

[Khet]

I normally don't comment on these announcements but I thought I would offer my concerns with the current rating/FOM system. I was never one to really care about ratings or fancy lists but one user of my mod sent me a PM stating that he couldn't understand why my mod wasn't in the Top 50 fallout 3 mods, and this got me curious. (The PM was sent about three or four days ago)

 

I did some checking and really, I can't understand it either. I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining, but the current system really makes no sense. Currently, there is a mod that has less than half the downloads of mine and less than a third of the ratings I have with my mod but because the average votes are a 10 (All votes are 10) while mine has a few 9s and 8s scattered in it (more 10s than the mod I'm speaking of though) yet it's on the top 50 list while mine isn't. The only thing this other mod has going for it is it was uploaded before mine.

 

The current system really makes no sense. The formula says that it takes the number of votes into account but I can't understand how. My mod (while having a lower average vote) does have triple the votes of this other one, and well over double the amount of 10s (but again, I have some 9s and 8s scattered in, with only one 7 being my lowest)

 

I feel that the FOM should not only put more emphasis on the amount of votes but should also take into considering the number of downloads on the file.

 

As I said, this current system looks very flawed and frankly, I'm glad I don't really care about these lists because it makes no sense as to why my own mod isn't even listen. Over double the downloads of some mods, more overall votes (including more of those 'coveted' 10s) but because I was "unlucky" enough to recieve some 9s 8s and one 7 mine isn't 'worthy' of being on the Top 50.

 

HeX_0ff made some very valid comments. Mods that have taken many hours of work (while mine doesn't compare to others I have probably invested more hours than the other mod I mentioned) seem to be ignored while others sky rocket to the top. In short, I would have to agree with everything said by HeX_0ff in his own post. The current system is flawed and needs a serious rework.

[buddah]

This is turning into much ado about nothing.

 

It is simple if you have statements/links asking for votes/ratings/kudos, remove them. It is simple as that, when they are reported I will remove them, a general PITA all around but I will do it.

 

You can use any color you want in your posts, all the moderators use yellow so they can easily be spotted as our work, so I ask that you use a different one. When we post in white, it is a personal response.

 

The changes to the file ratings have been coded and are almost ready for implementation and will be brought on line when Dark0ne returns from holiday/vacation. This was delayed as he wants to personally monitor the update and make appropriate changes/tweaks that will only be apparent after it is rolled out and on line. No one else, not even the admins have access to the sites coding, they are Dark0nes creation and he is responsible for them. {Thank You God}

 

Most of these changes you will actually like, some you may not. All the current ratings will be translated with a super secret algorithm and the rankings will change, dramatically for some and not at all for others. This will be quite like the changes to the image share ratings, but there will be some changes from the simple thumbs up of the image share ratings. There are several checks that come into play in the file ratings area as well. These will all be explained when the new system is implemented and will be adequately explained then.

 

Suffice it to say, getting riled up and making pointed attacks is fruitless. Wait a week or so and see what you get, one nice thing is very few should get the boot for trash rating any mod.

 

Buddah

 

No one is above the ban hammer so let us try to be civil and treat each other with respect. The exception is staff, we can't ban each other, damn it I could use the rest!

[buddah]

Thread cleanup, this should end now. If you want to have a pissing match use pm's. I am trying to go week without banning anyone, don't blow it for me.

 

Buddah

[Smokindan]

I did not at all mean any offence with my post. I was just trying to point out a particular example of what is wrong with the current system. That said, I only came on this morning when you had cleaned up the thread so I'm not sure what happened after that.

 

Anyway, thanks for the info about the upcoming system and good moderating :)