Sorry to bug you all again about Copyrights

[1Crimson1]

I thought I had this down, I apologize, but now I've stumbled upon another conflict. I failed to see this.....

http://wiki.tesnexus.com/index.php/Illegal_Music_Pack_Uploads_and_You

My mod consists of about 98% cover songs. Copyright laws on covered material , after much google...ing?, seems to be a sort of a grey area. Voices of the Lifestream, claims that their work is "Free",

http://ff7.ocremix.org/

and they distribute their work freely on their website.

http://ff7.ocremix.org/tracks/

 

Upon checking their Content Policy, here ........... http://ocremix.org/info/Content_Policy .......... it seems that I am able to distribute their content provided I give the proper credit as written on the Content Policy.

 

ZREO, which seems to have recently gone defunct, does the same thing as Voices of the Lifestream on their website as well...

 

http://www.zreomusic.com/

 

The rest of the mod consists of sound fx, which is comparable to any of the various armor mods from other video games floating around, and shouldn't pose as a problem. Only two game titles were used, Final Fantasy VII and Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

 

So my question now is, are covers acceptable?

Edited December 23, 2013 by 1Crimson1

[1Crimson1]

I've also stumbled upon the Fair Use Policy....

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Plus this article breaks it down in layman's terms for me and anyone else...

http://socialtimes.com/fair-use-youtube_b61891

1.) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
2.) The nature of the copyrighted work
3.) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4.) The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

 

So..................

 

1.) The purpose of this mod is for nonprofit. No harm being done to their wallets.

2.) The nature of the content is to express and enhance immersion to a game. For example, The Legend of Zelda's main theme on the NES gives the listener a feeling of adventure, and reminds the listener of playing a Zelda game. In which case, would actually serve more to make someone want to play Zelda rather than Skyrim, or at the very least be more like free advertisement than an infrigement. So no harm there.

3.) The mod as a whole isn't solely based off of one game, it's a collage of other songs from numerous games. I don't see any harm on this one.

4.) This one's pretty much like #2. It's paying homage to the original and in no way can ever replace the original games by music alone. Final Fantasy will always be Final Fantasy better than Skyrim can ever be Final Fantasy and the same goes for all the other games.

Edited December 23, 2013 by 1Crimson1

[Shadeybladey]

Basically, you will get banned if you upload ANY copyrighted material to the Nexus without permission from the copyright owner. Also if you steal other modder's work and pass it off as your own.

 

You will need to get specific advice from moderators and the site owner about the specifics of your mod.

 

I asked about a mod that had 10 second clips of rock songs from the 1970s, and was told it was a no go area. The fact that the worst that could happen is that some people might think "I like that song, I'll buy the CD or the mp3" makes no difference. It is copyrighted and that's that.

 

As for covers, anyone can make a cover of another song. The owner and record companies would only be interested if they make money out of it.

 

Become a Bard by LP1 has a lot of music in it, including Malukah's cover versions of Skyrim songs, plus lots of other people playing guitar etc. The performers all gave their permission for it to be included. I really don't know about the copyright owners. LP1 has removed her mods from Nexus and gone elsewhere. I have no idea if this was to do with copyright issues and Nexus rules, as the mod was up for a long time before she moved.

 

She has a thread at the Bethesda forum for the latest version. You could try sending her a PM about her experience with the intricacies of copyright and performances of cover versions in mods.

 

But the definitive answer will come from Dark0ne, who clearly does not want a law suit, hence the ban on copyrighted material, transferring assets from other games and all the rest. No argument or pointing at laws on "fair use" or anything else will succeed if he says "No". It's his site and that's the end of it.

 

There are other sites, Steam, AFK, TESAlliance, Dark Creations etc.

 

 

~.~

[Dark0ne]

We won't host it, sorry.

[bben46]

IF you did not create the music - then you will need some documented PROOF that the actual copyright holder allows that music to be used for this purpose. A cover is a copy of someone elses music. Most professional musicians are members of an organization that allows them to perform copyrighted works because they paid a fee that covers royalties to join an organization. (In the US that is ASCAP) By paying for their membership, they can play their cover legally in live performances. But if they put it on a record or up for sale - they still pay a copyright fee to the record company for every copy they sell.

 

Uploading music on a site like the Nexus is publishing - and permission from the actual copyright holder is required. If all you needed was a cover or remix to bypass copyright then copyright would be worthless.

 

Unfortunately, the big music companies own the copyrights for most music today, and they are completely unreasonable about fair use. Personally I think it would be to their advantage to allow their music to be incorporated into games in that it introduces their music and artists to new audiences. They don't see it that way though.

 

There are a lot of internet sites that say the music on their site is FREE, when what they mean is free to listen to or for personal use, not distribute. Or put up by music pirates that don't believe that musicians should get paid for their work and are either ignorant of copyright or intentionally ignoring it. OR based in countries that do not recognize international copyright agreements. (And, of course - no one has ever been known to lie on the internet :ohmy: )

 

The major companies may not bother to go after the little guys - but the Nexus is a big target. And they have been known to go after smaller targets as well - google Jamie Thomas-Rasset to see how far they will go in their relentless and stupid persecution of copyright violation. $222,000 for sharing 24 tunes. And it cost the music industry a lot more than that to get that conviction knowing that she would never be able to pay the fine.

 

If you want to challenge their lawyers in court over 'fair use' please do not use the Nexus as your test case. :sad:

[1Crimson1]

I've removed the file, I apologize.

 

I get your point bben46. Heck, as a musician myself, I like getting paid, but I think the line between theft and usage should be redefined a little. I feel a musicians main source of income should be for concerts, not by digital copy distribution. Yeah, sell CD's as collectors items and make a few bucks on the side, but as a listener, the artist should be more than happy that we enjoy their music. That's all I ever asked for when playing shows as well as my band mates.

 

I digress. Regardless of how I feel this is your house and I humbly ask forgiveness.

[1Crimson1]

Just a thought while I've got ya'll's attention. What if I put my musician skills to the test, hop on FL Studio and create variations that resemble, but aren't blatant remakes of the original copyrighted material? Could I then bypass any sort of legality issues and host the mod on your site? I know 3D Dot hero's on the PS3 got away with this without so much as glance.

[Thandal]

Just a thought while I've got ya'll's attention. What if I put my musician skills to the test, hop on FL Studio and create variations that resemble, but aren't blatant remakes of the original copyrighted material? Could I then bypass any sort of legality issues and host the mod on your site? I know 3D Dot hero's on the PS3 got away with this without so much as glance.

 

Are you trying to get your account banned?!?

 

Saying "Such-and-such was done on the PS3 and got away with" is just asking for it, since the Nexus does not allow console modding (or discussion of doing so) in any form whatsoever.

 

I suggest you (re-)read the Terms of Service, especially the part where Dark0ne says:

 

• Absolutely no copyrighted work is to be used without permission of the original creator. This includes content from other games, from DLCs, music creators or from other file authors. This also includes members from countries that do not recognise copyright laws.

• All files uploaded must have been created by the uploader or used with permission from the original author of the content. Such permission must be indicated in the Readme text attached to the file and/or on the Description page (or in the Description field for images), and must be obtained in advance, before uploading the file. If you cannot provide proof of consent then your file will be removed and your account is likely to be banned.

 

Seems quite clear to me.

 

And trying to find loopholes is not a good idea, since the ToS also say:

 

Nexus Mods is owned and maintained by Robin Scott (member name "Dark0ne"). Robin is regarded as the law on the Nexus... What Robin says goes irrespective of whether there has been a breach of the terms of service or not.

 

BTW: There is nothing about mods for games that falls under "Fair Use". They are not "for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research." All the other qualifiers, such as the amount of the copyrighted work being used, or whether the use is not-for-profit, only come into play if the primary purpose of the use is one of the above.

 

The only other exception consistently recognized (by US Courts) is: "Satire".

[1Crimson1]

Woah woah, maybe I didn't word that right. I'm asking what if I make my own music, that is NOT a cover of or in anyway related to an original piece, but gives the same feeling. And what I meant by the PS3 reference is that in that game they did something like that which avoids any copyright issues. I'm not talking about taking the Zelda theme and reworking it and calling it my own nor did I ever say anything about a mod for PS3, I was just using it as an example to get a better understanding of the rules, which I'm trying to respect. Sorry if they aren't perfectly clear to me like they are for you.

[Shadeybladey]

Woah woah, maybe I didn't word that right. I'm asking what if I make my own music, that is NOT a cover of or in anyway related to an original piece, but gives the same feeling. And what I meant by the PS3 reference is that in that game they did something like that which avoids any copyright issues.

 

Dude, I am not a moderator and have no desire to be and I am not back-seat moderating, but you got your answer from me in the first reply, followed by Dark0ne saying:

 

 

We won't host it, sorry.

 

 

So that is the end of it. Then you started talking about another banned subject. What next? Shiver me Timbers and Polly want a cracker?

 

I knew this answer because I made some 10 second clips of old songs by Queen, Black Sabbath, Yes, Led Zeppelin, Genesis, Gentle Giant etc etc and made a ReadMe saying exactly which song, artist, album and year of publication (all in the early '70s), the length and which Vanilla files they replaced (the background songs Bards play when they are not singing).

 

This was to use with the Play and Bash mod for when you cast the Bard Song spell effects. They would be for Drums of Panic, Flute of Harmony and Lute of Fury. The reason I made it for myself was that the mod had not enabled custom songbooks for this function, so it uses the default background music which can take 60 seconds to complete and the spell effect does not trigger until the end of the song. So, not so useful in combat.

 

Then I got an e-mail that a thread had been started where someone asked for a mod to use the music from another game, or some published album of music, to replace the Skyrim music, and when I came to the forum it had already been locked as Nexus does not allow mods that breach copyright.

 

So I PM'd the moderator who locked it, explained what I had made and he said "No" Uploading those 10 second clips would be a breach of copyright, so I would likely be banned. I know the rules, I don't break them. And I understand the reasons for them.

 

So I am the only person in the world that has my Custom Songbook for the spell effects in Play and Bash. It's on my PC, it's for my own use and I bought the vinyl of all those albums in the '70s and '80s and then bought the CDs in the '90s and 00's. But that does not entitle me to redistribute them in edited format.

 

As bben46 said, record companies are completely unreasonable about fair use and copyright and do not see it as free advertising for their artists.

 

I used to be a musician myself and if you are a working musician, you know the laws on copyrighted melodies and you did not need to ask here, much less bring up console modding in the tone of "getting away with it".

 

You can compose your own variation of any tune you like and if it does not have 6 notes in a row that are identical, it is a new tune. Look at the George Harrison and the "My Sweet lord" case.

 

And as they said, it is not YOU that will get sued, it is Dark0ne.

 

So in Talo's Name, drop it and write your own music for your mod. But don't be surprised if it is put under immediate moderation while they check it out, because if it were my site I'd be worried about trusting you after these threads.

 

Try one of the smaller sites with far fewer members who are not so concerned about such things. I think there are some mod download sites that were actually started by people banned from the Nexus for similar infractions, as well as being abusive and showing no respect.

 

And trust me, I am not a rules stickily person or a moderator suck up, but in this case they are definitely quite correct. One law suit could probably bankrupt this site and it's owner, and I for one would be very sorry to see that happen; you being banned, not so much. But take the advice and drop it.

 

~.~