Communism

[ThetaOrionis01]

dictionary.com Capitalism -

"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market."

 

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'Profit' is the keyword here. The purpose of capitalism is profit, maximising the return on your investment.

 

So how do you maximise profit?

 

Profit is maximised by squeezing as much as possible out of your workforce for as little pay as you can get away with. If you don't believe that, then please explain why companies are outsourcing manufacturing to low-wage economies. Of course, taken to its extreme, the greatest cost savings are made by using slave labour...

 

Look at the history of industrialisation - the appalling safety records in coal mines, for instance, the high rate of accidents in cotton mills, the long working hours and horrific working conditions.

 

Another way to save on cost is skimping on costly health and safety and environmental protection measures - which is a danger to employees and those living near the manufacturing plants.

 

Capitalism is the pursuit of profit, and profit can only be obtained by exploiting both workers and consumers.

[Darnoc]

I disagree. That is just blaming the system for your own selfishness.

 

Wonderful, you have just proven with your own words that capitalism is evil. Peregrine has defined before that a system is evil when it results in evil, which concludes that communism must be evil, since the results of communism were evil (since the communistic system ignores the flaws of human nature). So, if the capitalistic system encourages me to be selfish and in order to do that even harm others, the capitalistic system is evil.

 

But I think, in order to make matters really clear, we must first clearly define "evil". I hope we can agree on that an evil action is an action which you make for your own benefit and in which you deliberatly harm other people in order to reach your benefit.

 

Now you said that communism is evil for "exploiting the more efficient people". You fail to see that this isn't exploition, for in the communistic system, you simply don't have the right for more, since everyone receives an equal share. This is not harming you in any way, since nothing was taken from you which you did possess in the first place. You make a sacrifice for the benefit of the human collective. Just imagine the following: If the more efficient would get more, someone else would have to get less. And is it right that you take from them in order to give someone else? No, it is not right, since that would be in fact deliberatly harming someone. So, in take the right action, everyone must get the same amount of everything. Everyone has the right on having enough for simply being a human.

 

Now in capitalism, deliberate harmful action towards other people for your own benefit is encouraged by the system itself (since the goal is to make profit, even when you harm people by doing so), therefore capitalism is evil.

[draighox]

'Profit' is the keyword here. The purpose of capitalism is profit, maximising the return on your investment.

I think, that the keyword is "free market". It is at the end of the sentance, the sentance would be quite correct without it. It would be a nonsence without "profit", so it has to be there. The "free market" doesn't have to be there, but it is added, so it means that it's the keyword. If I wanted to stress "profit", I'd put it at the end.

 

Wonderful, you have just proven with your own words that capitalism is evil.

Um... no I didn't.

 

So, if the capitalistic system encourages me to be selfish and in order to do that even harm others, the capitalistic system is evil.

I've heard that many times before, but nobody bothered to explain how. Can you back your statement with some arguments?

 

But I think, in order to make matters really clear, we must first clearly define "evil". I hope we can agree on that an evil action is an action which you make for your own benefit and in which you deliberatly harm other people in order to reach your benefit.

And if you harm people without benefiting yourself, is that not evil? I think, evil is harming anyone, whether for your own benefit, or not.

 

Now you said that communism is evil for "exploiting the more efficient people". You fail to see that this isn't exploition, for in the communistic system, you simply don't have the right for more, since everyone receives an equal share.

[sarcasm]And of course, working without payment is not exploitation.[/sarcasm]

[Malchik]

All these arguments are a little convoluted. Put at its simplest, under a fully operative communistic approach if you are unproductive for any reason you are looked after. Under a fully operative capitalist approach if you are unproductive for any reason you starve to death.

 

There can surely be no disagreement over which is more humane?

[ThetaOrionis01]

[sarcasm]And of course, working without payment is not exploitation.[/sarcasm]

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Is voluntary work exploitation? Is making a mod exploitation?

 

 

You are equating reward with financial gain - which is a purely capitalist notion. There are, however, other types of reward - if you read up on theories of motivation you will find them well documented.

 

Capitalism places little emphasis on rewards of 'self-actualisation' - which is what to me 'from each according to their ability' is all about. 'From each according to ability' is an invitation to use all your abilities and talents, to contribute what you can as part of a whole, and so be rewarded by the knowledge that you have done the best job you could have, that through your work you have the ability to grow, to be all you can be, with your own abilities complemented by the abilities of others, for the good of all.

 

Yes, it's an ideal, and probably unattainable in the real world (certainly while people are focussed on materialistic rewards) - but it is a thoroughly noble ideal, and there is absolutely nothing evil about it.

[Zmid]

[sarcasm]And of course, working without payment is not exploitation.[/sarcasm]

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Mate, that is only true of communism if you take an entirely selfish view - 'I am getting nothing directly by working, so I am not getting paid'. If you take a less selfish view, you would see that, by working, you are generating resources for your whole society, which makes this society stronger, so you get more back from society in return. As I have said before, this is the major flaw in humanity that makes communism currently unworkable - human beings are selfish.

 

EDIT: And I should add, this not only helps you, but everyone else as well.

[draighox]

All these arguments are a little convoluted. Put at its simplest, under a fully operative communistic approach if you are unproductive for any reason you are looked after. Under a fully operative capitalist approach if you are unproductive for any reason you starve to death.

Nope. Under communism everyone starves to death. Or are killed during the revolution.

 

Is voluntary work exploitation? Is making a mod exploitation?

Making a mod isn't work, it's fun.

 

'From each according to ability' is an invitation to use all your abilities and talents, to contribute what you can as part of a whole, and so be rewarded by the knowledge that you have done the best job you could have, that through your work you have the ability to grow, to be all you can be[...]

You can't grow. You have to remain at the same level everyone is.

 

Yes, it's an ideal, and probably unattainable in the real world (certainly while people are focussed on materialistic rewards) - but it is a thoroughly noble ideal, and there is absolutely nothing evil about it.

How many times do I have to repeat that the original intentions of communism are evil?

Communism takes goods from the more efficient and gives it to the less efficient, as I said. That way, the more efficient must work to support themselves and the less efficient. That's exploitation.

 

Mate, that is only true of communism if you take an entirely selfish view - 'I am getting nothing directly by working, so I am not getting paid'. If you take a less selfish view, you would see that, by working, you are generating resources for your whole society, which makes this society stronger, so you get more back from society in return. As I have said before, this is the major flaw in humanity that makes communism currently unworkable - human beings are selfish.

On the contrary, selfish is forcing others to work for you without payment, just because they can do more than you.

[ThetaOrionis01]

Sorry draighox, you just don't get it.

 

No point in arguing with someone who stubbornly insists that the earth is flat.

[Morgoth]

I second that.

[Malchik]

And I third it! He's probably a relative of McCarthy!