Why I Think The Empire Is Right

[kleinstaff]

this is not about who is right and who is wrong

This is the empire Talos created and destroying it in the name of talos isjust wrong , on the other hand the empire can only be strong with a true dragonborn on the throne and the only true heir to the throne is your character the dragonborn

 

in reality both sides would be trying to hunt you down and kill you

Ulfric will try to hunt you down since you are the greatest threat to his claim of power, , the empire will hunt you downsince you are a threat to the current rulers of the empire

 

the Thalmor will do anything to kill you since you represent everything what they have been trying to eliminate in the last few 100 years

 

 

i smell a epic quest lue for the next TES here

[Lachdonin]

Eeeeh... Racism didn't really exist until the advent of Science (yeah, it's Science's fault, we can't be right ALL the time). Before that, it was just a general suspicion of outsiders.

 

Anyway, we've been all through these arguments before, and the simple fact is, both sides are right. Surprise!

 

As much as i hate the Civil War questline, there is a streak of genius in it that both sides have equally valid claims to their stance. It all boils down to personal priorities, freedom or the mathematical odds of victory over the Thalmor?

[madcow12]

Hang on, i think reason 5 is legit

but a duel is fighting on equal terms

ulfric used a shout which, if the high king also had it in him, would not have blasted the high king helpless and let ulfric finish with a blade. how do we know? because angneir says few can withstand the unbridled voice of the greybeards, and the dovahkiin stumbles even at them just speaking at him. so how much more the impact on normal humans

ulfric used to train with the greybears so he can use the voice but the high king couldnt which means one was with power, one without, and broadly speaking if one with power uses that power to remove the life of the one without equal power it's called murder

[Kraeten]

Hang on, i think reason 5 is legit

but a duel is fighting on equal terms

ulfric used a shout which, if the high king also had it in him, would not have blasted the high king helpless and let ulfric finish with a blade. how do we know? because angneir says few can withstand the unbridled voice of the greybeards, and the dovahkiin stumbles even at them just speaking at him. so how much more the impact on normal humans

ulfric used to train with the greybears so he can use the voice but the high king couldnt which means one was with power, one without, and broadly speaking if one with power uses that power to remove the life of the one without equal power it's called murder

 

We can speak with Torygg in Sovngarde. No "murder" took place.

[madcow12]

ah my bad. never talked to torygg in sovngarde..always just went to the three to kill alduin

[TheVampireDante]

The challenge Ulfric issued to Torygg (in the old Nord tradition) allowed a warrior to use any weapon/power/ability he had at his disposal.

 

Which Ulfric did. By anyone following the traditions there was no wrongdoing. A challenge was issued, accepted and the outcome soon showed itself - Ulfric won by being the stronger, more prepared warrior.

[LeddBate]

I agree (for the most part) with Lachdonin. Both sides are right. But both sides have, issues. Which is really brilliant of the game's storyline writers. It leaves you to choose your side (if you want to) with whatever justification you choose.

 

But I would like to discuss the Thalmor. The face of the Aldmeri Dominion in Skyrim. No matter which side you favor, it becomes apparent during the game that the Thalmor are pleased, if not downright delighted, by the civil war. The revelation about Ulfric at the Thalmor embassy simply supports this. But there are many clues (in quests, books, personal diaries, etc.) that also show that the Thalmor aren't just neutral observers. Now, it is true that the Thalmor are present at Ulfric's impending execution at the beginning of the game, but that doesn't prove that they were pleased to see him about to be killed. Then again, maybe they would be glad. He (Ulfric) either got away from their control (if you believe that theory) or they may simply believe that he had become too dangerous and might actually have a chance to reunite Skyrim in a sweeping campaign.

 

Why would this bother them? Well, we all know that the peace between the Empire and the Dominion is uneasy at best. Clearly, a prolonged civil war in Skyrim would do nothing but weaken the Empire (at least in Skyrim) and, or course, weaken Skyrim itself if the Nords under Ulfric eventually prevailed. Either outcome is good for the Dominion. The only thing that would be bad for the Dominion is if the war came to an abrupt halt. Either by one side or the other winning in a series of stunning victories aided by a heroic (whisper it) Dragonborn, OR the war grounding to a halt because a long-lasting truce is orchestrated by that same hero turned diplomat.

 

Oh, gee. Guess what your character ends up doing? No matter which side you choose (or decide not to choose) your character has truly thrown a King Kong sized monkey wrench into the carefully ordered works of the Dominion. Remember what Tullius says to you at the end of the civil war (if you sided with the Stormcloaks)? He blames the Thalmor for pushing him into most of the actions that pissed of the majority of Nords and goaded Ulfric into confronting Torryg.

 

So take heart. Don't lose sleep worrying if you supported the "right" side. Because either way, you've either shortened the war (saving lives) or stopped it via a truce (saving even more lives.) No matter what path you've chosen, you've saved lives and pissed off the Dominion royally. That's a "win" in my book.

Edited February 9, 2014 by LeddBate

[YX33A]

I haven't posted here in ages, but again, #5 on the list isn't super fair. Murder implies something much worse, killing someone for (generally) petty reasons. If the duel was to the death, as I'd expect a duel for the right to Lead a Country to be, then it's hardly murder. If poison was involved, if the High King was at a disadvantage due to some sort of sabotage(like the duel in Morrowind where you fight a guy who doesn't speak (much) in Mournhold and get a pretty sweet sword if you win), if Ulfric had used some sort of Black Magic technique, etc etc, then yeah, maybe murder.

 

But considering that anyone can learn to Shout if they study with the Greybeards, it's hardly fair to say that Ulfric had an unfair advantage.

 

And besides, the high king wasn't doing much for Skyrim anyway. Talk to the Blacksmith in Solitude and he explains he was mostly "The Empire This, The Empire That" with his leadership. Ulfric would be a fine High King if he wasn't Racist IMO. He has at least part of the idea right; The Thalmor are evil.

 

And that's the bottom line. As well put by LeddBate, the real threat in Skyrim is the dragons, but the threat outside of the player's grasp is the Thalmor. The great war showed their true colors. Not that anyone needed to see them themselves in Skyrim, anyway. I hate 'em for two reasons. One, they claimed they solved the Oblivion Crisis themselves, and oh boy does that piss me off. Two, they basically own the Khajiit now, having lied about solving the lack of the moons, and may well have caused them to vanish in the first place.

 

There is also the fact that they claim Elves are the true "Master Race", but Malborn's family was purged, and from my research, the Dark Elves don't have any real ties to them other then Kinship. They aren't exactly welcoming of people who aren't HIGH Elves, and even so, they will treat their own kind like dirt if they don't believe their version of the Truth.

 

Plus, y'know, Talos was most certainly a god. Two proofs of this: He shows up in Morrowind and asks you to throw a coin into the volcano(and the whole Imperial Cult will tell you that that stranger was Talos and that it's a ill omen), and two, the blood of a god is needed to open a portal to "Paradise" in Oblivion, and this was solved by finding a sample of Tiber Septim's blood. AKA the man who Became Talos.

 

Not that I think anyone here wouldn't know this already, mind you. With the exception of my best friend, I don't think anyone who plays Skyrim isn't familiar with TES Lore.(he bought the game during it's last sale on steam, and it was his first real foray into TES)

[Phantasys]

Reason 1- Yeah totally fair blaming a person that's getting executed alongside you for you being executed.

Reason 2- The imperial characters treat the more traditional nords like they're animals, as if they have lesser brain functions and are second class citizens. The Empire is a tyranny and deserves to be overthrown.

Reason 3- The thalmor are manipulating the whole thing to try and get both sides weakened. The war has already gone on long enough for the Legion to be properly weakened, so the best choice is to support the Stormcloaks' victory as that is the one outcome the Thalmor want to avoid at all costs. Because they don't want a significant part of the world controlled by people they don't have in their pockets.

Reason 4- Ruse you say? I could say the same for their visage of fairness and proper governance, If you do the quest given to you by Fralia Graymane in Whiterun you'll see that General Tullius collaborated with the Thalmor to capture her son in order to keep her family down (because they are big voices for Talos worship in Whiterun), The note you find written by tullius to the Battleborns in Whiterun confirms his complete support of the abuse and torment of groups of people they claim to be citizens of the Empire. Two-faced bastards, they claim that skyrim belongs to the Empire and that all are citizens of the empire yet they have the audacity to help a foreign state oppress the people and kill off a major part of the population. The empire has had plenty of time to strike back but they maintain the comfortable peace they have being the thalmor's dogs by the suffering of other states. Morrowind was abandoned by them during the oblivion crisis and left to fend for themselves, skyrim's Talos worshipping population is sacrificed to appease their thalmor masters, Hammerfall has already become independent and are fending off the Thalmor perfectly fine. The empire is a joke, they claim to be protectors yet they do nothing when people actually need protection.

Reason 5- Covered by other people, but Ulfric challenged the king to a duel and the king lost, simple as that he didn't sneak attack, or use poison, or anything Ulfric was just the better man.

Reason 6- So because you weren't born in this country you should help a tyrannical empire and their Thalmor masters persecute and oppress it right? Not really a legitimate reason.

Reason 7- Always part of the games true...but the next game doesn't have to involve skyrim you could still be in the Empire or it could still be mentioned but it doesn't mean the Empire will eventually win. Hell as the ages move on things change, the dragons have never been part of the games before this, the empire would probably be nothing but a memory by ES7.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Phantasys

[YX33A]

Reason 1- Yeah totally fair blaming a person that's getting executed alongside you for you being executed.

Reason 2- The imperial characters treat the more traditional nords like they're animals, as if they have lesser brain functions and are second class citizens. The Empire is a tyranny and deserves to be overthrown.

Reason 3- The thalmor are manipulating the whole thing to try and get both sides weakened. The war has already gone on long enough for the Legion to be properly weakened, so the best choice is to support the Stormcloaks' victory as that is the one outcome the Thalmor want to avoid at all costs. Because they don't want a significant part of the world controlled by people they don't have in their pockets.

Reason 4- Ruse you say? I could say the same for their visage of fairness and proper governance, If you do the quest given to you by Fralia Graymane in Whiterun you'll see that General Tullius collaborated with the Thalmor to capture her son in order to keep her family down (because they are big voices for Talos worship in Whiterun), The note you find written by tullius to the Battleborns in Whiterun confirms his complete support of the abuse and torment of groups of people they claim to be citizens of the Empire. Two-faced bastards, they claim that skyrim belongs to the Empire and that all are citizens of the empire yet they have the audacity to help a foreign state oppress the people and kill off a major part of the population. The empire has had plenty of time to strike back but they maintain the comfortable peace they have being the thalmor's dogs by the suffering of other states. Morrowind was abandoned by them during the oblivion crisis and left to fend for themselves, skyrim's Talos worshipping population is sacrificed to appease their thalmor masters, Hammerfall has already become independent and are fending off the Thalmor perfectly fine. The empire is a joke, they claim to be protectors yet they do nothing when people actually need protection.

Reason 5- Covered by other people, but Ulfric challenged the king to a duel and the king lost, simple as that he didn't sneak attack, or use poison, or anything Ulfric was just the better man.

Reason 6- So because you weren't born in this country you should help a tyrannical empire and their Thalmor masters persecute and oppress it right? Not really a legitimate reason.

Reason 7- Always part of the games true...but the next game doesn't have to involve skyrim you could still be in the Empire or it could still be mentioned but it doesn't mean the Empire will eventually win. Hell as the ages move on things change, the dragons have never been part of the games before this, the empire would probably be nothing but a memory by ES7.

Counter points to your counter points:

1. You are completely correct; it's not Ulfiric's Fault you were sent to the chopping block, it's the dragonborn's fault for crossing the border illegally and the fault of a Imperial Officer with a chip on her shoulder.
2. You mean everyone treats Nords like this, right? It's the stereotype and nothing unique. Orcs weren't even considered sentient beings until the Daggerfall, they were assumed to be an offshoot of Goblins(roughly).
3. Spoken like a True Blade, friend. While it's true that the Thalmor are the true enemy in Skyrim, even General Tullius wants to give them the Karmic Death they have earned, and after you complete the War questline you get more proof of this; for the Empire he has his sights set on them now, for the Stormcloaks he admits if they hadn't been involved this could have ended peacefully.
4. Hardly fair to speak ill of the empire for fulfilling their end of a bargain made to end a war. They Thalmor get to do that EVERYWHERE, and they do that to more then just Talos worshipers. Basically if you speak ill of them, you may just vanish. Malborn's Family vanished as well, Bosmer, and if the Thalmor are truly starting up the Aldmeri Dominion again, then why are they killing their allies in secret?
5. Everyone has said the same bloody thing as you here, even in support of the Empire. Point five on the list wasn't fair and the OP admits it.
6. By your logic then no Nord's born in Skyrim would have any reason to support Ulfric. And the Empire hates the Thalmor as well. Hell, it wasn't until the Stormcloaks had their "fun" that Skyrim had a strong Imperial presence, and not until then that the crackdown on Talos hit Skyrim. If Ulfric had never dueled the high king, and killed him, all those "True Sons of Skyrim" would be free to worship Talos still in peace.
7. You know something we don't? Seeing as these games are part of a Living world, we have no way of knowing who wins this war, what the results of it are beyond Skyrim, and how long it takes for the Dragon's to be beaten again, if ever. And don't kid yourself, Dragons have been a part of games before this; Daggerfall has one as an aide to a member of a Royal Family, though he is out of the way and mentioned only once or twice. In Redguard you have to kill one to progress to the final boss. But you're right. we have no way of knowing if the Empire will still exist by TES7. But trust me, it takes an army of equal strength to grind a war to a standstill, and it takes more to win one. And the Great War never truly ended, my friend, and when it starts again, will the Stormcloaks be there to stop it? Or will they be crushed like ants against a flood of Bosmer, Thalmor, Khajiit, and god knows who else? Here's a hint: That's at least three times the amount of troops the Stormcloaks will have, and if the Empire is gone, then they own that as well, so that's 4 times, if the Dunmer join up, 5 times, Bretons, 6, Orsimer, 7, Argonians, 8... You see the problem?

In closing, the Empire may not be faultless, but they want what's best for Tamriel, not just themselves. The Thalmor want what's best for them, and the Stormcloaks want what's best for them. Everyone wants what's best for them, but the Empire still has to look at the big picture, seeing as the Empire is called this since it(used to, anyway) rule all of Tamriel with a fair but tempered hand. Is it doing this now? No, because they lost enough support from the other parts of the Empire. They lost MOST of the empire to the Thalmor.