Thanks god obsidian dosn't make an other fallout :)

[JimboUK]

I really hate to do this, but I kind of agree with the OP. But that's entirely due to Chris Avellone wanting to nuke the NCR into the Stone Age. I've followed Fallout through every increasingly and depressingly wacky update*, to see the world through into a full recovery, and Avellone's every involvement in the series has been an utter betrayal of that. Bethesda often does fetch quests, and while annoying, it's nothing compared to making the gold bars in Dead Money weigh 30 pounds in the name of theme when they say on the frickin bars they weigh a pound each.

 

*Fallout's always been kinky about this, but in the original, most of the wackiness were non-canon random encounters (the kuju footprint, the Tardis). What was canonically wacky was due to the hubris and psychosis of other characters (Locksley's put on English accent).

 

Avellone f*#@s up the Fallout universe. He's wanted to take a series about rebuilding, a World Half Full despite all it's problems, and turn it into a Crapsack World that will never be allowed to escape the Apocalypse of 2077. For service to the brand. And I hate his guts for it. I also really dislike him because he's indirectly said the real world US doesn't deserve to exist because every single problem the NCR have been chronic, and chronically battled, issues of American history.

 

One of the problems I have is it's 200 years after the war, things should be a lot better than they are, New Vegas isn't as bad as DC where it looks like the war happened 10 years ago but it's still wrong. Humanity is good at two things, building and destroying, yet the former is largely forgotten. That said I'd rather have Chris Avellone at the helm than I would Todd "The player is a moron" Howard.

[zetenrisiel]

I agree 100% Jim. IRL the US was still fighting to exist, and regardless of one's personal feelings on the state of the union we are far more advanced than even the founding fathers could have dreamed. I always found it hard to believe that with the existance of educated vault dwellers; society is still in ruins 200 years later. As gopher so hilariously stated in his LP, there is abraxo everywhere, nobody has a job they need to go to, yet every single house is filthy.

 

I think they are on a train and can't get off. Who would want to play a fallout game where you live in a neo-modern community and don't have to worry about raiders or survival?

[3AMt]

Thanks for all the replys and discussion. Seams like most people around here like NV more. I can understand that in some points. Dialogues are great in NV. For me its not all about grafics, but the level design has to be at least a bit visual appealing. And New vegas not updated LOD makes me wanna vomit. (where you can walk through low quality LOD meshes) Especially when you keep in mind that it would have not taken more than 20 seconds to regenerate them. Sure there are mods to fix such immersion breaking glitches, and even visual /grafic mods to make it look fantastic. But thats not the point I meant. The last Bethesda games havn't been a grafic reference either.

 

Some quest in NV are just poor designed. Example: I get a massage to talk to some NCR guy in the NCR embassy. As well as a massge to talk to caisar. Now I instandly know where the Legion headquarter is. Even if I never have been there... Quest marker. The game does not intend to tell me where the NCR embassy is. The massage tells its somewhere south east of the stip. So I search for it. Have to go to all the doors and 1000+ mini cell worldspaces. Still, its nowhere around. I start to search google. Now the FO-Wiki says its 2 doors (means 2 mini worldspaces) from the strip. Back in game and back with searching. No clue. After 15 loading Screens i quit the game again. Time to look fo coc command now. Im sick of it... Ahh there we go. But I hate cheating. Unfortunatly I need a lot of 'movetoqt' and 'coc #ID' commands in NV. There is no fun in searching a good damn building all night long. Finally found the embassy, secretary says the Ambassador is door to the right, end of the haul. K, door to right, end of haul. Ended up in a toilet room. It goes on and on. The result of very bad quest and world design.

 

I don't say that all NV quest are bad, there are lots of good and creative ones, but some are just horrible implemented.

 

Everyone seams to forget how much freedom and choises FO3 offered. It just didn't had a meaning, nor impact on the world, just a karma system defining your reputation and NPC dialouge options. But franky, most times there have been more than 3 ways to solve a quest in FO3. It just dosn't matter how you do it. Quite sadly Bethesda games have been watered down a lot since morrowind to fit the most common causal. And I 100% agree this is a bad move. Essential characters are horroble and such things have to stop.

Bethesda should take the positive things from NV and combine it with a world you have fun to explore and which rewards your exploring. At least in world desing beth is master, but I highly doupt that they will ever make a game as deep as morrowind again. its go with the flow, baby... Its generation Xbox.

Edited February 17, 2014 by 3AMt

[TrickyVein]

Bethesda often does fetch quests, and while annoying, it's nothing compared to making the gold bars in Dead Money weigh 30 pounds in the name of theme when they say on the frickin bars they weigh a pound each.

 

Not really sure what to say to this

 

Actually, I'll try and follow your logic here:

 

Fallout NV is a bad game because while fetch quests in Fallout 3 are bad, they're not as bad as making the gold bars in Dead Money weigh 30 lbs when each of them should only weigh 1 lb.

 

Truly, this is nigh unforgivable. Obsidian should never make a Fallout game again, because they'll release a DLC that contains an item which has a controversial weight value.

Edited February 17, 2014 by TrickyVein

[charwo]

 

Bethesda often does fetch quests, and while annoying, it's nothing compared to making the gold bars in Dead Money weigh 30 pounds in the name of theme when they say on the frickin bars they weigh a pound each.

 

Not really sure what to say to this

 

Actually, I'll try and follow your logic here:

 

Fallout NV is a bad game because while fetch quests in Fallout 3 are bad, they're not as bad as making the gold bars in Dead Money weigh 30 lbs when each of them should only weigh 1 lb.

 

Truly, this is nigh unforgivable. Obsidian should never make a Fallout game again, because they'll release a DLC that contains an item which has a controversial weight value.

 

 

No. Obsidian should never make another Fallout game because Avellone is a hack and doesn't know what the f*#@ he has in Fallout. He fatally wounded the series with his Fallout Bible, though luckily only a supernatural power could have derailed Fallout 2. See, that's what you don't get about me. You keep calling Fallout a game. No RPG worth its salt is a 'game,' it's an interactive story with mechanics to balance things out. Games, whether Tetris, or Soccer or the Olympics, or even the NFL's Superbowl extravaganza are inherently worthless. They do not teach, they do not illuminate, they do not hold up the mirror to nature or compel us to grow or examine. Anything that does not do that or ensure our survival or possibly get us laid is not worth doing. Fallout is more than a pretty galley in which to repetitively shoot things.

 

Fallout 3 is a good game, on a platform that is entirely unsuited to it.Every sin of Fallout 3 is in New Vegas but the fetch quests, but nothing is as insulting as Lonesome Road's homage to Damnation Alley, which is a horrible movie with an unrealistic premise. Fallout used to be plausibly realistic, with a sense of humor and wonder. Then they add in this 'Physics work like pulp science movies' rather than 'here is how this normally cheesy effect might plausibly occur in the real world' that was all through Fallout 1, most tellingly with the description of the infection vector of FEV. And yes I'm saying that while OWB and Mothership Zeta are wilder and zanier, nothing is as intellectually insulting as the making of caves with toppled skyscrapers. They don't work that way. I can fault both companies for not having an architecture grad draw up the building interiors to make sure they would have been fully functional to their purpose, but on Avellone's head alone it falls to see how a skyscraper falls in on itself on 9/11 and then ten years later release a product that ignores all of those observations, dismissing it as 'Hey it looks cool.'

 

This is in addition to my rage against his sniveling about NCR. If you want to know how I play, check out the KKrueger thread in this section. It's the third comment.

[JimboUK]

 

I think they are on a train and can't get off. Who would want to play a fallout game where you live in a neo-modern community and don't have to worry about raiders or survival?

 

I think they could do both, there could be rebuilt towns and settlements with new buildings, means of production ect, things that show rebuilding and progress, they'd be walled off and beyond the safety of those walls could be the dangers of the wastes. I think small modern towns with the ruins of the old world towering over them in the background would look quite good, the good and bad mankind is capable of side by side.

[TrickyVein]

 

You keep calling Fallout a game. No RPG worth its salt is a 'game,' it's an interactive story with mechanics to balance things out. Games, whether Tetris, or Soccer or the Olympics, or even the NFL's Superbowl extravaganza are inherently worthless. They do not teach, they do not illuminate, they do not hold up the mirror to nature or compel us to grow or examine. Anything that does not do that or ensure our survival or possibly get us laid is not worth doing. Fallout is more than a pretty galley in which to repetitively shoot things [emphasis mine].

 

 

Fallout isn't a game? Games are worthless? It must be hard, bearing all of that criticism by yourself. Playing a team sport or another kind of game may be inherently worthless to you, but not recognizing the value it has for other people - precisely because games teach and compel others to grow - is simply ignorant, arrogant and belittling. It also has little bearing on this discussion as far as I can see :confused:

 

In all of your comments I've read how you complain about what the game isn't - after setting up some impossibly high standard that only you - a fan - seem to be able to understand or define. Avellone's been involved with Fallout since practically the beginning, so turning a blind eye to his influence on the game is a pretty difficult thing to do. He's as much part of the Fallout IP as whatever else that you think defines the series, so deal with it. I guess I can understand why you're so frustrated when reality is so different compared to your expectations. Most people either change their expectations or pick up something else instead when that happens.

 

I'd much rather have Obsidian make another Fallout game than Bethesda because they write characters. Cherry-picking examples like poor physics or bad environment design from the game aren't compelling reasons why Obsidian shouldn't continue to make more Fallout games in the future. If you harbored a greater technical understanding of the engine then maybe you could understand or appreciate 1) the difficulty and/or 2) real limitations in creating a virtual world. Especially in gamebryo.

 

No matter how badly you want Fallout to transcend being a game and that you think is part of some reality beyond this one (that so far no one has been able to portray convincingly, where art and game engines don't matter), it won't and it isn't. The only reason people even talk about Fallout today is because Bethesda made a game where it's fun to run around and shoot people.

 

I'm not even sure what you're criticizing since the problems you see in the game come from taking such an irrational position to begin with.

[nivea]

I have to admit to never feeling like I learned anything or felt that I grew as a person by playing FO3, other then perhaps the fact that shotguns are fun in FO3 like they tend to be in alot of shooter games. I feel like FO3 was supposed to be gritty and darker then FNV, but they made is so main stream that they could not delve far enough into the dark and gritty so it didnt leave me with a overwhelming sense of anything.

 

I did like the buildings in FO3 but they wouldnt make sense in FNV so I can see why it didnt have the same feel to it.

 

Also do not bash other games and call them worthless, because these are ALL GAMES in the end and its more easy for people to laugh at someone playing a Fallout game then playing a sports game. Because at least those are based in reality and not some made up fantasy world. Also games had to start some where so why bash games that made things like they are today Tetris may not be the end all of games, but it DOES make your brain think and work to solve puzzles. More then I can say FO3 or FNV does.

[kelticpete]

to assault the word "game" and mock it is to misunderstand how we learn. children and adult learn well not just from hard work or routine latin discipline but from play. there is a cliche, "the work of a child is to play" children learn alot while playing.

 

when I was in gifted and talented in the 4th grade I told my mother we never "learned" anything in gifted classes but she just laughed as she saw all the objectives and list of stuff we were learning as the super-brilliant teachers had us doing fun projects and choosing stuff that we felt was goofing off but actually was teaching all sorts of things (everthing we would have learned in regular class and more)

 

anyway, the more simple a game, the more repetitive, the less one really had a deep exeperience with it.

 

I see the point that a great RPG or even a great interactive adventure can make you think more than say a puzzle jumper. games are good. they all just have DIFFERENT purposes and different benefits. regular sports games can teach you leadership, teamwork, courage, mercy, good behavior, endurance, etc.... or it can just make you a self focused competetive prick. it depends on if you are taught/guided by your self and others.

 

anyway, I am tireds of typing on this

[charwo]

This is what I'm talking about: Art. Art and transcendence:

http://goinswriter.com/great-art-is-transcendent/

 

It's not an uncommon sentiment either. It's been the historical basis of why art is cherished, because it has an existence of it's own beyond as a tool for the artist or their patron. This is why people react so viscerally to various forms of socialist realism but tend to love social realism. Because in the end, art in the hands of Stalin or even Hitler, who was himself an artist, is nothing but a tool of the state. Not even to educate, but placate and intimidate.

 

BTW, Avellone had zip nadda zilch to do with Fallout 1. Believe me, it shows, particularly in hindsight. But I do get the notion that Fallout was never intended to be anything but cheesy pulp. But it IS something more, something far more. It's something even more than the vaunted Baldur's Gate series. My characters talk to me. Apparently it's a common writer thing. And the things I have seen through their eyes....the things they have told me....they take the breath away.

 

And I stick by my assessment of games. I can tell you that in my case, and I do not think I'm uncommon, even if I would be in a minority, I am incapable of learning from a game. All I see is competition to be crushed by any means fair or foul. Stories though, they can reach me in that part that builds empathy and mercy and understanding. But for most people, games are not transcendent, they are past times. Things to kill an afternoon. You get people like Wayne Gretzky who made a science of his playing ice hockey, or Oscar Pretoria, to whom running on artificial legs became a symbol of something beyond what most people consider 'fun.' It became a work of passion.

 

I got a saying: life is both far too short and far too long to engage in anything other than serious business. If what you do isn't serious business, it's not worth your time. Find something that is. Don't waste the moments we never get back.