Mature gaming

[loveme4whoiam]

It seems that my paltry knowledge of this area of gaming has been completely superceded by Darnoc's :D . I avoided Dungeon Siege 1 and 2 simply because I didn't like the look of it, although I gather the story of 2 was particularly bad. However, it might be worth picking it up on te cheap to play that TC.

 

I really admire people who take on projects like that, something of a throwback to the days of bedroom coding (I was much too young to be around for that, unfortunately). That sort of development no longer happens, I think - Lucasart's titles like Day Of The Tentacle and Sam And Max have stopped being made (although Telltale Games is got the license to make Sam And Max 2, YAY!), presumably because there is, as we've said, no demand.

 

And yet could it be that we are the minority. Do most others find adequate satisfaction in these games and those posting here are the exceptions? As I said earlier - if the demand is sufficient, the supply will follow.

 

I think the Sam And Max debacle is a good example of this. When Lucasarts announced then cancelled it, the outcry was huge and unrelenting. I think that that fact that Telltale got the license to make it and seem to have publisher support for it proves what Malchik is saying.

 

I fear games development will soon reach the stage where the company accountant has more say than the games designers. Tried and tested formulas will be rehashed ad nauseam as companies try to outdo each other on the special effects front. With that much money at stake, companies just won't want to take the risk of trying out something new or different, or won't be able to attract the necessary funding even if they wanted to..

 

This is my fear as well. However, on the (distant) horizon are Evolution (dunno if thats the name its under at the minute), made by Will Wright and published by EA, and promises to revolutionise AI and gameplay - although from what I've heard of it it'll be all freeform so no storyline, and Supreme Commander, made by Chris Taylor and published by THQ - also, freeform so no storyline. The fact that big-name publishers like these are willing to put money behind next-gen games (admittedly, made by true legends of game development) shows that there are a few who are going to push evolution of gaming, although I never ever thought that EA would be one of them :shocked:

 

The leaning towards freeform gaming is a great step - I've always hated corridor shooters (although its never stopped me buying them, something to think about) and S.T.A.L.K.E.R and Far Cry are steps in that direction. But what about storylines then? Will they lose out in the face of this new way? My idea of the perfect game would be one with an adaptive storyline, but that would require AI that doesn't exist yet, ie, NPC's would react according to their own agenda to the players actions, causing events down the line of the game to change. I would consider that to be a revolution in gaming - maybe it could be scored by some punk rev bands :D

 

Only problem is that most people, who are good with thinking of stories, have no idea of game development. I am a writer too (sorts of), but don't ask me to do any programming grin.gif So I propose that the writers, artists and the game developers among us join together and create a game of a quality unseen until this day. We can do this, we have talented people among us, writers, artists, programers, designers. The resources are there, we just need to combine the talents we have in order to create something truly magnificent.

 

I guess its up to us to show the way then. Come, Darnoc, lead us into a bright new future filled with believable characters and evocative storylines :D I'd be behind you.

[KzinistZerg]

Only problem is that most people, who are good with thinking of stories, have no idea of game development. I am a writer too (sorts of), but don't ask me to do any programming grin.gif So I propose that the writers, artists and the game developers among us join together and create a game of a quality unseen until this day. We can do this, we have talented people among us, writers, artists, programers, designers. The resources are there, we just need to combine the talents we have in order to create something truly magnificent.

 

I have to agree on this. I recently read The Chronicles of Christomanci- it wouldn't make a good game world, but the characters were detailed enough that when something horrible happened to them, I thought "Oooh, that's really horrible. Ugh."* Which is rare for me- I read a lot of books and rarely do they do such a thing. I've never yet seen anything even vagueley (<-sp?) approaching this sort of thing in computer games except for characters I found annoying, and no I am NOT referring to Fargoth or any other bosmer! I'm thinking more of some of your lancemates in Mechwarrior, who never shut up *coughcaseycough*. But annoying charcters are easy to make- good, detailed, interesting ones aren't.

 

*Spoiler: when I finished the part of the book that has to deal with Eric (Cat) Chant- about six of his nine lives having been stolen and wasted by his sister, who then planned to murder him? And nine-lived people are what, one in a billion? Ugh. *shivers*

[Darnoc]

I guess its up to us to show the way then. Come, Darnoc, lead us into a bright new future filled with believable characters and evocative storylines  I'd be behind you.

 

*WARNING: BLATANT COPY OF FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE'S "ALSO SPRACH ZARATHUSTRA"*

 

If you don't understand German, translate it yourself :-P

 

Also sprach Darnoc by Darnoc

 

Ich lehre euch das Computerspiel mit guter Geschichte und interessanten Charakteren. Das technisch hochwertige Computerspiel ist etwas, das überwunden werden muss. Was habt ihr getan, es zu überwinden?

 

Was ist das technisch minderwertige Computerspiel für das technisch hochwertige Computerspiel? Ein Gelächter oder eine schmerzliche Scham. Und ebendas soll das technisch hochwertige Computerspiel für das Computerspiel mit guter Geschichte und interessanten Charakteren sein: ein Gelächter oder eine schmerzliche Scham.

 

Ihr habt den Weg vom technisch minderwertigen zum technisch hochwertigen Computerspiel gemacht, und vieles, das ihr spielt, ist noch minderwertig. Einst spieltet ihr minderwertige Computerspiele, und auch jetzt ist das technisch hochwertige Computerspiel mehr minderwertig ist als die technisch minderwertigen Computerspiele.

 

Wer aber das beste Computerspiel unter euch hat, dieses ist auch nur ein Zwiespalt und Zwitter von Packman und Sims. Heisse ich aber den Computerspielen wie Packman oder Sims zu werden?

 

Sehet, ich lehre euch das Computerspiel mit guter Geschichte und interessanten Charakteren!

 

Das Computerspiel mit guter Geschichte und interessanten Charakteren ist der Sinn des Game-Developments. Euer Wille sage: das Computerspiel mit guter Geschichte und interessanten Charakteren sei der Sinn des Game-Developments.

 

Ich beschwöre euch, meine Brüder, bleibt der guten Geschichte und interessanten Charakteren treu und glaubt denen nicht, welche von guter Grafik und Technik sprechen! Giftmischer sind es, ob sie es wissen oder nicht.

 

Verächter der Essenz des Computerspiels sind es, Absterbende und selber Vergiftete, deren die Gamer-Gemeinde müde ist: so mögen sie dahinfahren!

[loveme4whoiam]

For those who are too lazy (or can't :P ) translate this, heres the Babelfish translated version.

 

Thus Darnoc spoke by Darnoc

 

I teach you the computer game with good history and interesting characters. The technically high-quality computer game is something, which must be overcome. To what did you to overcome it?

 

What is the technically inferior computer game for the technically high-quality computer game? A laughter or a painful shame. And even that should be the technically high-quality computer game for the computer game with good history and interesting characters: a laughter or a painful shame.

 

Made the way from the technically inferior for it to the technically high-quality computer game, and much, which plays it, is still inferior. Once played you inferior computer games, and still is the technically high-quality computer game is more inferior than the technically inferior computer games.

 

Who has however the best computer game among you, this is also only a Zwiespalt and a hermaphrodite of Packman and windshield frame section. Am I called however the computer games such as becoming Packman or windshield frame section?

 

See, I teach you the computer game with good history and interesting characters!

 

The computer game with good history and interesting characters is the sense of the Game development. Your will legend: the computer game with good history and interesting characters is the sense of the Game development.

 

I swear to you, my brothers, remain faithful for good history and interesting characters and do not believe those not, which of good diagram and technology to speak! Poison mixers are it whether they know it or not.

 

Veraechter of the Essenz of the computer game are it, dying and poisoned, whose are tired the Gamer municipality: so they may there-drive!

 

Wow *wipes a tear from his eye*, that was pretty inspiring Darnoc. I particularly liked "Zwiespalt and a hermaphrodite of Packman and windshield frame section." :D

 

I agree with your argument in principal Darnoc, but I think that the devil is in the details, as they say . Perhaps you would care to reiterate your argument? :D

[Mercbird]

Live another live...

Yes I, go for it, as I've said before, its cheaper than therapy. I am not kidding when I make these statements. Playing Morrowind restored my mental balance (such as it is), as it provided me with a universe, where my actual existance was neccecary. One in wich I have a say, a direct influence where previously I hid away in books , where I was only an observer, I became a participant and therefore started participating in my own life.

And though I will always appreciate the well written yarn , being able to create my own, as suit my mood, writing my own story and being part of it, being able to see it happen, has superceded my love for books or writing.

 

Which brings me to my point, also said by Darnoc

I came to the conclusion that if we want games with good stories, we need to create them ourselves

 

Freeware, shareware....MODS

 

This is where we have the freedom to create these things, the opportunity is provided. If one does not like said mod or does not wish to participate in a group effort, the CS is sufficiently user-friendly to create what you want. And success at this will fuel more 'writer types' to learn more about programming and vice versa.

 

Should the demons of marketing and money (for whom I slaved almost a decade, reducing me to a state of mental catatonia, at the low point of which I refused to participate in my own life) take over entirely, be assured that it will reach a point of critical mass, and will implode. Marketing zoo's can never rid themselves of the the they most hate, and depend upon for they're very existance.

Humans.

 

 

Such is the cyle of life, or the law of physics if you prefer.What goes up must come down.

There is nothing new. As for good story line and superior 'pewter stuff. I demand both :D

[Malchik]

Can I remind posters that as moderators are not polyglot anything that could be a request to introduce Eugenics is likely to get deleted. But we thank lovemeetc for a translation of sorts. I didn't see the word Eugenics so I'll let it go this time!

[Darnoc]

*Howls as he looks at this horrible thing loveme calls a "translation*

 

Oh my, this is really, really horrible! In fact it is so horrible that I suddenly feel the urge to translate it myself in order to prove the superiority of the human mind over the artifical.

 

Remember the slogan of the Butlerian Jihad (Frank Herbert, here I come!):

 

Thou shalt not create a machine in the image of thy mind!

 

:D

 

 

Thus spoke Darnoc by Darnoc

 

I teach you the computer game with a good story and interesting characters. The computer game with high-quality technology is something which must be overcome. What have you done to overcome it?

 

What is the computer game with low-quality technology for the computer game with high-quality technology? A laughter or a painful shame. And just that should the computer game with high-quality technology be for the computer game with a good story and intering characters: a laughter or a painful shame.

 

You have done the path from the computer game with low-quality technology to the computer game with high-quality technology, and many things, which you play, is still low-quality. Once you have played low-quality computer games, and even now the computer game with high-quality technology is of lower quality than the computer game with low-quality technology.

 

He who has the best computer game among you, this is also just a discrepancy and a hybrid of Packman and Sims. But do I tell the computer games to become like Packman or Sims?

 

Behold, I teach you the computer game with good story and interesting characters!

 

The computer game with good story and interesting characters is the meaning of game development. Your will shall say: the computer game with good story and interesting characters shall be the meaning of game development.

 

I conjure you, my brothers, abide by the good story and interesting characters and do not believe those who speak of good graphics and technology! Poisoners they are, if they know it or not.

 

Dispraisers of the essence of game development they are, Stallers and poisoned themselves, whom the gamer comunity is weary of: so away with them!

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I agree with your argument in principal Darnoc, but I think that the devil is in the details, as they say.

 

Well, what can we do particullary?

 

1. Stop buying games! Every game you buy feeds the huge demon of the gaming industry. If we stop buying, we will destroy their nourishment and bring this giant to its knees. So spread the message: Stop buying games created by the gaming corporate groups! I don't mind small gaming studios, struggling to get something on the market. But don't buy at the big ones, like EA. If people stop buying, the gaming industry will lose money. Do whatever you want, but don't buy.

 

2. We must start creating our own games, games like we envision them to be. We will write fascinating, deep stories with believing characters you could actually care for. We will create beautiful, artistic graphics (and I don't mean a better graphic engine, I mean real art; you can even do beautiful games with 2D-engines, Black Isle has proven that), we will create deep and fascinating worlds into which one can dive and lose oneself. We will create games with ambience, if you get my meaning. Not just shallow shells with good technology but nothing beneath them. Our games must be works of art, not just simple games. One should see them and gasp in total awe at our masterpiece. It must be something which will be remembered for years to come as the pinnacle of game-development. And we will not sell this game, we will distribute it freely through the internet. This will pain the gaming-industry most, especially when we are able to take customers away from them (they no longer buy games, they only download our free game). It must not be a mod, we will create this thing from scratch, so that one doesn't have to buy a game in order to play ours.

 

3. We must give everything into it. Not just a hobby, something amusing, it must be our very life, our very soul and spirit. We must believe in what we do, to the point of fanatism. This is not just a amusing project, this is a war and our weapons are our skills and our wits and the game we will create. If we do not believe, we will never manage. There will be no payment, no money, no price (at least not a material one). The only thing we will get is the satisfaction to have created something amazing, a piece of art. We must not just do it and let things be, people must know of what we are doing, or else all will be for nothing. Use the internet to spread the message, mobilize those talented people out there to join and help.

 

 

To sum up: Stop complaining and whining, get on your feet and do something, for we can do it, if we believe enough in what we do (and if we get enough people to help us at what we're doing).

[ThetaOrionis01]

That's creating an artificial division which doesn't exist. Good graphics, state-of-the-art technology and immersive settings/imaginative storylines are not mutually exclusive. Even in the computer games industry, things aren't that simple.

 

What's behind it is market forces - as Malchik said, if there is a large enough market for games with fully developed NPC personalities and mould-breaking plots, then such games will be made. Do you really think that current games designers are incapable of producing precisely the kind of games you want to see made? I really don't think so - they just can't get the funding necessary to create such games. And games developers, too, have bills to pay and can't live on thin air and lofty ideals.

 

 

As for giving your 'life and soul' to creating games... time for a little reality check. Most of us have either jobs or full-time education which takes up a lot of our time. Additionally, most of us are not hermits, and have to devote some time to human interaction and relationships.

 

Of course, hermits would make atrocious games designers - without experiencing human interaction first hand, how are you going to create those believable characters?

 

Making a game in your spare time as an independent games developer while holding down a job to finance your game development is possible - but it takes determination as well as the right skills, and the right connections. And those skills are becoming more and more specialised. A writer sitting down with a copy of C++ for Dummies is not going to program the complex AI the 'ideal' game is going to require.

 

 

And another point. I wonder whether good writers necessarily make good computer game designers. The point of a good computer game is not writing a deep and meaningful story full of little plot twists - the point of a good computer game is to provide the player with a setting and background in which to create his or her own story. Maybe the writer intends that the player should fall in love with NPC X? What if the player instead wants to kill X and steal his/her shoes? A good game allows the player the freedom to do that, rather than shoe-horn the player into a pre-determined role.

 

The more freedom you allow the player, the more complex your game becomes. Unless you can expand your AI to generate new dialogue as required by the situation, the games designers will have to input dialogue to cover all possible options and interactions. Think of the number of possible permutations between even a small number of NPCs and the player.... This, really, is the main limiting factor for believable characters.

 

 

Yes, independent games companies exist and are springing up - but those run by dreamers living in cloud-cuckoo-land will not get anywhere.

 

 

Darnoc, for all your fancy words - have you ever worked on at least a quest mod to give us those believable characters and storyline you wish to see? From your posts, which seem somewhat dissociated from reality, I doubt it.

[Mercbird]

There is nothing new, all these dreams are already there...

 

I believe there are two 'smaller games' that is approaching what Darnoc says above, the one is 'Mount&Blade' (also mentioned on another thread on these forums)

It is not complete and you literally buy a beta version with the option to upgrade. As I could not get my credit card to function on-line, I only played the trail version(which is the whole of they're marketing campaign), which mesmerized for a week at least, because I can see the potential there.

Its whole game engine has been developed by one guy, from scratch, graphics by his wife. It needs support in story and aesthetics, but should this man let go of what he has been living and breathing for however long to a publisher, sure he will be able to sleep better, but the game would then stay a run-around-and-bash-it game. But sure the box it comes in will look pretty. Because the buzz surrounding it is priceless, and can not be artificially recreated.

 

The other is Vampire Bloodlines. It suffers from a dead parent, and premature birth. The only reason there are actual "updates" available from the publisher is because it is demanded by the people who bought it. Who spent good money on cr*p, money talking loudly in this instance. And the 'unofficial' updates are better. But the story is there-ish.

 

And the second sitouation seems to be a progresson of the first, because everyone must eat, a game was thrown out to live or die. Well it didnt die (and by now the publisher must wish it had).

And that is the market talking, give us sh*t, and we'll give it back, eventually.

 

Since having grabbed and bought Star Wars : Sith Lords ( view my opinion on it in the game reviews thread), I prefer the try before you buy approach, and therefore make the little sales people in Pc&Game shops fire up the prospective game and handle it for a bit. If they dont, I dont buy. This is not shopping for panties, people. And I wont let my emotional attachment to the movie franchise (bleagh) of my childhood dreams get in the way ever again.

 

This is the perspective of a computer programming noob, and the approach of a writer and dreamer. We seem to say the same things using different words. And I dont release my mods as I'm ashamed of the simple things that make me happy, or abandon these half functioning demons on a pile. But I am honing my skills and taking my time, and be sure I will release mods for oblivion. I know there is nothing about computers that cannot be figured out, given time, and what I cant figure I have to brothers to ask. Our unholy trinity could cover all the apects of what I would want in a game.

[Darnoc]

Darnoc, for all your fancy words - have you ever worked on at least a quest mod to give us those believable characters and storyline you wish to see? From your posts, which seem somewhat dissociated from reality, I doubt it.

 

I could also ask if you ever tried to write a fantasy novel, create the world around it entirely on your own with all the details involved and then implant an intriguing story with believable characters into this story. Have you ever felt the power of creation? Being a writer is a little like being god. The difference between a good and a bad writer is that the good writer successfully brings his imagination to life in the minds of his readers. The good writer feels his world, feels the reality he creates. For him, what he writes is not just words, but the manifestation of a different reality, which exists in his mind and which will continue to exist in the minds of the readers, therefore becoming real.

 

If you have written stories, then you should know that heart of a believable world, characters story is believeable interaction between those very characters. You can invent languages, whole chronologies, but if the characters don't act like humans act, your story is nothing worth, despite all the funny little details. You cannot write a story without first understanding humans and how they intereact socially. This is the key to the minds of your readers.

 

You said it yourself: Hermits wouldn't be able to write a good story, because they lack the necessary experience of human relations.

 

No, I haven't worked on one single game up to date. I have written lots of stories, though, in which countless different social situations appear. And with everything, through training one does get better. We could put my skills to the test, so give me a quest to work on and we'll see...

 

Let's say it's a challenge. We both take on the same subject and try to create a quest out of it. So, I dare you to a quest-writing-competition ;)

 

I leave it to you to decide the subject. But if you don't want to, I can decide on one. Just thought that since it was you who brought the thing up, you would like to decide.

 

As for giving your 'life and soul' to creating games... time for a little reality check. Most of us have either jobs or full-time education which takes up a lot of our time.

 

Now about this "dissociatation from reality" you acuse me of: I have a life to, I have a full-time education. But I just set priorities. Writing my novel is the first priority, not college or money or anything else. It is a choice, which I have made. One I do not regret. I admit it consumes a lot of energy, trying to study and at the same time working at my novel all the time I can spare (and I mean "all the time I can spare", I work every free minute I can get). But one can manage, if one only wants to. Human will makes it possible. So don't come with "I have no time and energy". It is will which counts, the will to act. Do you have it?

 

Well, perhaps I'm just a workaholic, lol :D