Russia and the Ukraine

[MajKrAzAm]

I always laugh at the Putin-Hitler comparisons. I imagined them being written by some Westerner who's knowledge of Russian history comes from video games and Hollywood action films.

 

The Hitler comparison is always drawn out whenever the West wants to replace a foreign leader. The motivation is transparent: by comparing a foreign leader to Hitler, it allows the speaker to compare himself to Churchill, and any legitimate domestic opponents to foreign adventurism are compared to Chamberlain. It's really pathetic.

 

Russians appreciate the fact that Putin is not nearly as destructive a leader as Yeltsin, and that his power apparatus keeps hot water in the pipes and police in the streets. They know that giving the smallest slack to any of the oligarchs will lead to rapid destabilization of the same sort that happened in the mid-90s, with the infamous Parade of Sovereignties. The Russians that lived through that era know how easy it is to go from civilization to chaos, especially compounded by an additional decade of infrastructural decay.

Edited March 21, 2014 by MajKrAzAm

[HeyYou]

What I find amusing is all the folks that poo-poo the comparison to hitler, simply because hitler did some truly vile things later in his reign. He started out as the "benevolent dictator" as well. Why do you think everyone was so happy to just let him do his thing for so long?

 

What's even MORE amusing is the articles I am seeing on various news sites now..... Mainly about how woefully unprepared the US military is to take on Russia, and the predictions of the "new cold war". The first part is quite true. Our military changed its focus from set-piece, large scale warfare, to counter-insurgency. We don't have the material, or manpower for a protracted, large scale engagement any more. Nor do we have the 'edge' in technology we once had. Sure, we are still somewhat ahead there, but, not so much as we used to be.

 

Do I want a war with Russia? No. Not even remotely interested. Do I think we will see one anyway? That largely depends on what happens next. Currently, it is a war of words. Let's hope it doesn't escalate beyond that.

[rizon72]

The American public has moved on to the missing airliner which the media is covering almost non-stop. All done by Putin to distract the easily distractible so they don't notice what is going on in the Ukraine anymore.

[MajKrAzAm]

What I find amusing is all the folks that poo-poo the comparison to hitler, simply because hitler did some truly vile things later in his reign. He started out as the "benevolent dictator" as well. Why do you think everyone was so happy to just let him do his thing for so long?

 

When Americans compare Putin's actions to Hitler's, it is ridiculous. Where was America in WW2?

 

For Americans no myth is more cherished than their awesome military brilliance and fighting excellence, and never is this pseudo-history more celebrated than in World War II. We were the Sleeping Giant, Americans pridefully note, and we cleaned everyone's clocks!

 

In reality America exercised a fair bit of discretion in World War II, and when they did enter the fray they had the advantage of fighting enemies who were drastically overextended, caught up in multi-front engagements, and lacking crucial resources with which to wage an extended conflict. American troops were virtually always in a state of lavish oversupply, and had the big luxury of being too far away to counterattack. (When the Japanese attacked a couple of vacation islands a few thousand miles away from us, Americans were traumatized and still shudder about it like it was the most diabolical thing in history, until 9/11 of course.)

 

I understand that playing the Hitler card is a pretty traditional American thing to do---Noriega was Hitler, for a while? And of course Saddam, and Milosevic, Gaddafi, and Karadzic, and Saddam again.

 

The thing you have to understand, though, is that for Russia, Hitler is a pretty big deal. For most of the 20th century, Russia pretty much got handed the dirty end of the stick. Collapse of empire, that whole Soviet thing, the civil war that made us look like pikers. But the fight against the fascists, they could stand up and be proud of that.

 

They were brutalized by the Wehrmacht, and kept standing . . . and then they hit back. Maybe one American in a hundred could tell you when VE Day is. Every Russian can tell you when Victory Day is. Playing the Hitler card is stupid, provocative and pointlessly inflammatory.

[HeyYou]

 

What I find amusing is all the folks that poo-poo the comparison to hitler, simply because hitler did some truly vile things later in his reign. He started out as the "benevolent dictator" as well. Why do you think everyone was so happy to just let him do his thing for so long?

 

When Americans compare Putin's actions to Hitler's, it is ridiculous. Where was America in WW2?

 

For Americans no myth is more cherished than their awesome military brilliance and fighting excellence, and never is this pseudo-history more celebrated than in World War II. We were the Sleeping Giant, Americans pridefully note, and we cleaned everyone's clocks!

 

In reality America exercised a fair bit of discretion in World War II, and when they did enter the fray they had the advantage of fighting enemies who were drastically overextended, caught up in multi-front engagements, and lacking crucial resources with which to wage an extended conflict. American troops were virtually always in a state of lavish oversupply, and had the big luxury of being too far away to counterattack. (When the Japanese attacked a couple of vacation islands a few thousand miles away from us, Americans were traumatized and still shudder about it like it was the most diabolical thing in history, until 9/11 of course.)

 

I understand that playing the Hitler card is a pretty traditional American thing to do---Noriega was Hitler, for a while? And of course Saddam, and Milosevic, Gaddafi, and Karadzic, and Saddam again.

 

The thing you have to understand, though, is that for Russia, Hitler is a pretty big deal. For most of the 20th century, Russia pretty much got handed the dirty end of the stick. Collapse of empire, that whole Soviet thing, the civil war that made us look like pikers. But the fight against the fascists, they could stand up and be proud of that.

 

They were brutalized by the Wehrmacht, and kept standing . . . and then they hit back. Maybe one American in a hundred could tell you when VE Day is. Every Russian can tell you when Victory Day is. Playing the Hitler card is stupid, provocative and pointlessly inflammatory.

 

It is also reasonably accurate. Resorting to insults doesn't do you arguement any good either. If you can't debate in an adult manner, I suggest you find someplace else on the site to hang out.

[Harbringe]

 

 

What I find amusing is all the folks that poo-poo the comparison to hitler, simply because hitler did some truly vile things later in his reign. He started out as the "benevolent dictator" as well. Why do you think everyone was so happy to just let him do his thing for so long?

 

When Americans compare Putin's actions to Hitler's, it is ridiculous. Where was America in WW2?

 

For Americans no myth is more cherished than their awesome military brilliance and fighting excellence, and never is this pseudo-history more celebrated than in World War II. We were the Sleeping Giant, Americans pridefully note, and we cleaned everyone's clocks!

 

In reality America exercised a fair bit of discretion in World War II, and when they did enter the fray they had the advantage of fighting enemies who were drastically overextended, caught up in multi-front engagements, and lacking crucial resources with which to wage an extended conflict. American troops were virtually always in a state of lavish oversupply, and had the big luxury of being too far away to counterattack. (When the Japanese attacked a couple of vacation islands a few thousand miles away from us, Americans were traumatized and still shudder about it like it was the most diabolical thing in history, until 9/11 of course.)

 

I understand that playing the Hitler card is a pretty traditional American thing to do---Noriega was Hitler, for a while? And of course Saddam, and Milosevic, Gaddafi, and Karadzic, and Saddam again.

 

The thing you have to understand, though, is that for Russia, Hitler is a pretty big deal. For most of the 20th century, Russia pretty much got handed the dirty end of the stick. Collapse of empire, that whole Soviet thing, the civil war that made us look like pikers. But the fight against the fascists, they could stand up and be proud of that.

 

They were brutalized by the Wehrmacht, and kept standing . . . and then they hit back. Maybe one American in a hundred could tell you when VE Day is. Every Russian can tell you when Victory Day is. Playing the Hitler card is stupid, provocative and pointlessly inflammatory.

 

It is also reasonably accurate. Resorting to insults doesn't do you arguement any good either. If you can't debate in an adult manner, I suggest you find someplace else on the site to hang out.

 

 

Sorry dude can't agree with that , the appeal to Hitler is nothing more than demagoguery , appealing to the lowest common denominator , much like what you hear night after night being exemplified on Fox News and it is stupid , because literally it is an appeal to stupidity. Think about it we have various western political leaders and the media drawing this reference , all the while having installed actual Neo Nazis and ultra nationalists of varying stripes into the government of Ukraine ,its freaking Orwellian.

[HeyYou]

Don't recall bringing the american government into it, or stating that I thought they were 'intelligent'.

 

The fact remains, that Putin is using the same arguments Hitler did in the late 30's to justify his annexation of various neighboring states. Do I see Putin rounding up jews, and putting them in gas chambers? Certainly not. He has successfully added Crimea to the Russian Empire. (or, maybe more accurately "Re-Added".....) Now he is making noises about Estonia. Will he repeat the same exercise? We shall see.

 

The actions of the american government could have their own thread, though, I don't think it would really be much of a 'debate', as I think most of us are on the same page on that score. :D

[JimboUK]

Putin is not Hitler, at worst Putin is drawing a line in the sand. The actions of the US government do come into this, the real modern day aggressors are the U.S and her allies, where we've not openly attacked we've funded and assisted in the overthrow of governments followed by the installation of puppets. Now we're openly backing Nazis who overthrew a democratically elected government while condemning a democratic decision by the people of Crimea to rejoin Russia, the US/EU position on this beggars belief.

[HeyYou]

Putin is not Hitler, at worst Putin is drawing a line in the sand. The actions of the US government do come into this, the real modern day aggressors are the U.S and her allies, where we've not openly attacked we've funded and assisted in the overthrow of governments followed by the installation of puppets. Now we're openly backing Nazis who overthrew a democratically elected government while condemning a democratic decision by the people of Crimea to rejoin Russia, the US/EU position on this beggars belief.

I gave up expecting anything that even remotely resembles 'intelligent behavior' from the american government. They have more than adequately demonstrated (many times...) that when it comes to foreign policy, they don't have the first clue. We overthrow a government, so that we can fight al-queda in one country, and then supply them arms in another. We overthrow legitimate, if distasteful... governments, that actually provided some semblance of stability, install our puppets, and mayhem, and sectarian violence ensues. In EVERY SINGLE country we have 'intervened' in, chaos and violence have followed. We give billions of dollars to countries that hate us. We spend billions on weapons systems that don't meet the design criteria, and the pricetag more than doubles before they are even half-way thru the initial testing phases. (and more often than not, they are failing most of the tests.) We have economic policies that favor the top 5%, at the expense of the rest. They outright refuse to deal with actual problems, and only poke around the periphery, dealing with symptoms, while ignoring the disease itself. We are so politically divided, that one half of the country considers the other half dimwitted morons. At best......

 

And the most depressing part? The american people KEEP ELECTING the SAME crooks. And those crooks are getting filthy rich, and laughing up their collective sleeve at the stupidity of the american people. We have a few intelligent individuals here, but, taken collectively, americans have got nuthin' on a box of rocks. Yeah, and we are supposedly "the leaders of the free world'.... If that's actually the case, my thoughts are: The world is in deep feces.

Edited March 22, 2014 by HeyYou

[JimboUK]

 

Putin is not Hitler, at worst Putin is drawing a line in the sand. The actions of the US government do come into this, the real modern day aggressors are the U.S and her allies, where we've not openly attacked we've funded and assisted in the overthrow of governments followed by the installation of puppets. Now we're openly backing Nazis who overthrew a democratically elected government while condemning a democratic decision by the people of Crimea to rejoin Russia, the US/EU position on this beggars belief.

I gave up expecting anything that even remotely resembles 'intelligent behavior' from the american government. They have more than adequately demonstrated (many times...) that when it comes to foreign policy, they don't have the first clue. We overthrow a government, so that we can fight al-queda in one country, and then supply them arms in another. We overthrow legitimate, if distasteful... governments, that actually provided some semblance of stability, install our puppets, and mayhem, and sectarian violence ensues. In EVERY SINGLE country we have 'intervened' in, chaos and violence have followed. We give billions of dollars to countries that hate us. We spend billions on weapons systems that don't meet the design criteria, and the pricetag more than doubles before they are even half-way thru the initial testing phases. (and more often than not, they are failing most of the tests.) We have economic policies that favor the top 5%, at the expense of the rest. They outright refuse to deal with actual problems, and only poke around the periphery, dealing with symptoms, while ignoring the disease itself. We are so politically divided, that one half of the country considers the other half dimwitted morons. At best......

 

And the most depressing part? The american people KEEP ELECTING the SAME crooks. And those crooks are getting filthy rich, and laughing up their collective sleeve at the stupidity of the american people. We have a few intelligent individuals here, but, taken collectively, americans have got nuthin' on a box of rocks. Yeah, and we are supposedly "the leaders of the free world'.... If that's actually the case, my thoughts are: The world is in deep feces.

 

 

That sounds awfully familiar but at least you get to choose your crooks, it doesn't matter who we vote for because the actual power lies with the crooks and fanatics in Brussels, such are the joys of European Union membership. Quite why some Ukrainians wanted to join the E.U is beyond me, they'd be trading one lot of crooks for another.