Realism Discussion

[Miloch]

Ok, I wanted to start a thread to discuss realism in a post apocalyptic setting. Point out things that are blatantly not in line with reality and make fun of stuff. This is intended to be a not so serious discussion, it's a game. Fallout always had a certain amount of "tongue in cheek" to it.

 

 

First off I want to say, I am in no means a scientist. Most of what I "know" is gleaned from many different sources and in no ways reflects a proper education in the materials discussed.

 

The Bomb itself causes: Firestorm, shockwave, emp wave.

 

Plant life: Firestorm destroys plant life in the blast radius. This leaves lots of ash. Ash is a very good fertilizer. This causes LOTS of plant growth in the blast radius. But there would also be fallout in the area. The plants would pick this up from the ground. So any plants are considered to be radioactively contaminated. Also from my understanding plants are not as badly affected by radiation. Depending on the isotopes used in the bombs the fallout would eventually break to the point where it would no longer be an issue. That's the idea behind the vaults in the first place. To keep people alive long enough to allow for the radiation to subside. The "wasteland" should be lush with green growth. :P

 

Nuclear Winter: It's only a theory of course, no one has experimented in causing nuclear winter. But with the sheer amount of nukes thrown during the history of fallout 3 there should have been a nuclear winter. The bombs throw enough particles into the atmosphere to block out the sun causing a serious reduction in temperature. The snow would probably be contaminated by fallout. Would the cold temperatures increase the life of the fallout? I have no idea. That's beyond me. Oh, and after the nuclear winter ended, plants would sprout from all over. Seeds can go dormant for a VERY long time.

 

Mutations: Mutations are the cornerstone of evolution. Increased radiation can lead to faster evolution. At least theoretically. So I suppose the crazily changed creatures of the fallout world are remotely possible. Though I will say the vast majority of mutations are often fatal, or at least not beneficial to most creatures.

 

Radiation/Fallout: Fallout is particles of the initial bomb's plutonium, uranium or whatever it is that made it go boom. I'm no nuclear physicist, so I can't say much about that aspect of things. Fallout is what causes the radiation. It can get into all sorts of things. But for creatures to be walking around that long after the blast carrying that much of the stuff... It's crazy. Radiation is not something that is catching. Radiation is emitted by the fallout.

 

Well I've said most of what I wanted to say. Like I said before, this is intended to be a discussion, not a flame. If you want to discuss the theoretical aspects of a nuclear apocalypse, then by all means join in. If you want to flame Bethesda, please do it elsewhere. :)

 

Oh, and if a moderator knows of a similar thread and wants to move this to that, by all means, please do so. I looked around a bit and didn't see one. Maybe I'm blind?

 

Edit: Ok, I'm adding this note for people because I'm getting the exact response I didn't want (but not all responses are that way).

I'M NOT SAYING FALLOUT SHOULD BE REALISTIC.

I'm just wanting to discuss what would be involved in a realistic post nuclear apocalypse setting and the differences between it and Fallout 3. :P

[Tony the Wookie]

plane and simple, if I wanted realism, I wouldn't be playing a videogame ;)

[LanOsb133]

This would be sweet if someone modded the map so theres accually vegitation cuz it would make this game better and i was like im not reading all thous paragraphs but i ended up reading them all :P

[gsmanners]

I know this is beating a dead horse, but the Fallout series wasn't designed with realism in mind.

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Divergence

 

I think in Fallout 3 what we have is more inconsistency, linearity and ineffectiveness than you would expect in an RPG. It better fits the style, mood, and mechanics of an FPS. I'm not saying that's a bad thing (I actually somewhat prefer FPS to RPG), but it does create this expectation of realism which I think is more suited to an FPS.

[JimboUK]

This would be sweet if someone modded the map so theres accually vegitation cuz it would make this game better and i was like im not reading all thous paragraphs but i ended up reading them all :P

 

There are mods that do just that.

[Miloch]

A couple more points...

 

EMP Blast: All electronics that aren't sufficiently shielded would be fried. That would probably include the majority of energy weapons. All vehicles, tvs, radios, computers, etc... I read somewhere, and once again have no idea how valid it is, that one properly placed modern day nuke could put off a EMP wave of sufficient strength to knock out most of the US's electronics. But that's not all. All the electrical infrastructure would channel the emp wave totally annhilating anything that is plugged in. But then again, EMP has not been extensively studied. Most of what we "know" is conjecture.

 

Blast Craters: Where are the blast craters? Why isn't the White House and the surrounding area nothing more then irradiated rubble/holes in the ground. If there was one place I wouldn't be surprised to still find radiation after so many years it'd be in multiple blast craters that should be all that is left of America's Capital. Maybe I have a bad memory, but wasn't there mention of blast craters in some of the previous Fallouts?

[VerbalEarthworm]

this is interesting : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

 

from what i can gather, the EMP effect of a nuclear explosion increases with altitude.

 

the bombs in Fallout3 seem to have been ground explosions, which has the least EMP effect.

 

EMP damages solid-state electronics far more than the old valve technology that Fallout3 uses.

 

as for blast craters, there are some around the edge of the map and Megaton can become one.

 

oddly though, the bomb in Megaton is identical to the bombs stored in Fort Constantine.

[evilneko]

Most "natural" mutations are neutral, conferring no specific advantage or disadvantage on the life form. Those caused by radiation though, would have a much higher chance of being negative, considering what radiation does to organic molecules.

[illuknisaa]

Water shouldn't be irrated.

[SaltyJustice]

Here's a reply to the base post full of actual scientific stuff by a learn-ed person. Pay attention, you might learn somethin'.

 

Plant Life: Radiation kills it good. The ash created from the fallout would not only be ridden with all sorts of chemical pollutants not incinerated by the blast, but would also be irradiated, especially if the bombs were ground-burst which they evidently were (Trust the Chinese to use a scorched earth policy). For more on why the radiation in the ash would kill the plants, see below. But believe me, it'd be some time before greenery returned after a nuclear holocaust.

 

Nuclear Winter: I admit, much of the basis for this is conjecture. The trigger for ice-ages is the closing off of major warm ocean currents. If the dust was enough to block out the sun long enough to freeze Trafalgar, for example, the Mediterranean would freeze and the resulting feedback loop would trigger an ice age.

 

What I can answer concretely is that no, the cold or heat would not significantly affect the half-life of the fallout. Only extreme temperatures on the order of -300 would affect it even theoretically and it would not be noticeable in our lifetime, or even our planet's lifetime.

 

Mutations: You're confusing mutations in the cell stages. Cells reproduce in two ways: One is done by the bulk of the cells in your body and is done to produce an exact copy of the stem cell. The other is when sex cells (sperm and egg) cross genetic data to produce new organisms. The second one is what produces offspring, and the second one is where mutation affects evolution.

 

If you get a mutation in the first type of cell (such as skin, liver, throat, stomach, blood, etc cells) then you get a localized mutation. The cell has automatic recovery enzymes which can fix the broken DNA and will attempt to. If they are unsuccessful, the cell shuts down and disassembles itself. If it cannot do this due to the mutation, it's called cancerous. If it reproduces itself afterwards, it's called a tumor. Tumors kill organisms outright. These kinds of mutations are universally bad. They do not hasten evolution, they curtail it by killing organisms before they reproduce. Mutations in the reproduction cells happen anyway and radiation would not help the process. This doesn't help the plants that survived any either, but for more on them see the fallout part below.

 

Fallout and Radiation: Radiation IS something you can catch, as long as you define catch in very broad terms. Allow me to explain.

 

Let's say you, without any protective gear (which reduces, but does not eliminate, the danger) are walking around in an area with fallout. You kick up some dust and you breath some of that dust in. Some of that dust is radioactive, and some of it finds its ways down your throat into your stomach. The dust is small and easily dissolves in your saliva, so this can happen.

 

When your stomach enzymes find it, they incorrectly figure it's Calcium (Enzymes are not smart). This is because Uranium has a similar ionic size and the same charge (2+) as Calcium. Your enzymes pack it up for distribution to your bones. The radioactive Uranium, now lodged in your bones, proceeds to radiate in there. This causes the bone immediately surrounding the Uranium to effectively turn to glass, which is not strong. It also starts to kill white blood cells that pass by and cause cancer. Your bones shatter easily and you get cancer, you die. This happens to almost every living organism with a few microscopic exceptions.

 

Plants are affected in a similar way. Calcium Carbonate is an excellent plant fertilizer, though you probably know it by a different name. When the plant absorbs that in its roots, it destroys the systems around it, though this only cripples the plant as they are modular. The survival rate of a crippled plant are not high, and its reproductive chances aren't either.

 

So there you have it. Science! If you have any questions or corrections post them while I try to figure out how you can see the laser from the laser pistol when it's not directly hitting your eye. My theory is that there's a LOT of dust in the air at all times, choking us with its laser-illuminating dustiness.