Its lame to be Evil.....

[TheWatchman]

Makes me wonder why Bethesda didn't keep the old Karma system. It wasn't just a good/bad meter, it originally also determined which town you've been like/hate you depending on what you're actions.

 

Though considering the game engine, it would have been a pain in the arse to keep running right.

 

As for the limitations of good/evil options we have. Part of the problem is every npc had a voice. Earlier FO NPCs has much more to say largely because most of them only had text, only a handful had voices. Considering the money Bethesda probably has to pay Voice Actors per hour, they more than probably had to take out things out of the script that had lines that would just take to long to record. So we're mostly rudimentary options with a few complex choices once in a while.

 

This would have been averted if the writing was better. I composing an engaging story is no instant thing, I write stories a bit once in a while, but FO3 feels a bit -to put it in nicely- watered down compared to the earlier games.

 

@Alehazar Regarding the wasteland screwing you over thing, I think you get annoyed too easily. Most of the cap rewards I've seen in FO3 are no better than the average reward in earlier FO games. The Wastes was more dog-eat-dog and a lot of people in FO2 can be far worse a-holes than any of those you mentioned can ever be.

 

Evan King can't match Jo of Modoc who will give what you want -which he doesn't have in the first place- if you go to this freaking spooky place where a lot of people are impaled on stakes. (I can finish this quest peacefully but you won't anything but a map location from him for finishing it)

 

Tenpenny and Burke are petty crooks compared to the New Reno gang lords

 

The Lamplight kids? I'd rather put up with them than the majority of Vault City aka "the city of tight asses" MacReedy has nothing to First B*tchizen Lynette.

 

And Simms? The sheriff of Redding made me do all his dirty work because he had a bum leg and got me into a blood feud with the Morton brothers (thanks to a bug) who I constantly encounter. With each brother leading the encounter wearing power armor and armed with a bozar or LMG (equivalents to a minigun) and sometimes kill me with one shot or at least screw my HP up real bad because the guy gets the first turn. Sometimes this is even more aggravating when I find I didn't save for almost an hour or so.

 

And Lyon's BoS are actually very nice guys compared to earlier BoS branches.

 

I can think up more examples but the point is after surviving all that, I find very few things in FO3 that are worth angry about.

In fact the only that thing ticked me off to this date was the result of peacefully getting the ghouls into Tenpenny Tower. Roy and crew are probably the only non-feral three ghouls I've killed with malice in my Fallout playing history.

 

But for the record, I'm always played myself when it comes to Fallout, a VERY tolerant Mister Goodie Two Shoes.

[Alehazar]

I decided to start anew and and try to base my own responses more on the replies I would get from NPC's

I started out as the regular goody two shoes as I always do. By the time I reached level 7 I was more or less reduced to a more hardened merc attitude: you want something from me, then what do I get in return.

For instance, when I visited Arefu and got "nearly blasted in two" I gave Evan King a piece of my mind as to what I thought of his itchy trigger finger. Who was playing tough with whom? Me wioth King for telling him that he'd better not miss the next time; or King with me, trying to intimidate me with the "fact" that he was already wielding a gun when I was still an itch in my daddy's pants? Anyway, I waited for the dialogue to continue and tried the speech challenge as to what had him so spooked. Had he decided to level with me, I wouldn't have minded extending a helping hand. Instead he rather brusquely told me off. So I asked him whether he was a whimp or something. And he quite earnestly informed me he wasn't going to get his *ss shot off trying to be a hero. So I figured, why the hell should I? Then he had the gall to ask me to be the hero and help them out. So I said that acquiring my help would cost him. Whereupon he said he didn't step out of Tenpenny Tower. So I said that he was pretty much scr*wed then. That's when he impolied for me to p*ss off. And it's when I decided to put King's self acclaimed fighting prowess to the test. He lost. Then I broke into his house, ransacked the place for some goodies and moved on.

- When I stumbled into Big Town I asked Pappy what became of his friends. And the conversation shifted in a direction where I was offered a reply to state that when he didn't care about the fate of his friends I wouldn't bother to rescue them. He quickly recovered and I told him it wouldn't be for free. He was seriously hurt and pretty indifferent about my merc attitude. Fine, if I was going to rescue his friends that at least I didn't have to pretend I was doing them a favor. I figured to rescue them anyway, inspite of his defeatist demeanor. When I got both Red and Shorty safely back I asked for my reward, took the speech chalenge to whether saving their lives wasn't worth something more. I failed it and then Red had the gall to ask me for my help again. So I told her off, survival of the fittest and all that and the quest ended.

- When following the Main Quest I asked Dr. Li whether she could spare some kind of aid and she refused. Having already played the Main Quest through to the end I knew that later in the MQ she would want my help to aid Garza. And I figured I would solve that particular problem by shooting him. Only that problem solved itself before it became an issue.

Having convince James Hargrave to run away I got this message from a Rivet City guard that CJ Young was missing. I just went about my business and upon my return to Rivet City through Anacostia Station, i stumbled into some Talon Mercs -guess I was doing some good after all. I decided to toss some grenades at them -it's wonderful whata a couple of well placed explosives can do -if your skill is up to par. Unfortunately that really upset CJ Young and she was flagged as hostile. Anyway I made my way to Rivet City to get some sleep in the common room. When I left, CJ Young spots me, is scared out of her mind and everybody around me turns hostile. So I have to shoot my way out of Rivet City. I had to kill two guards -loss of karma- and apparently I also shot Garza; who came at me with a knife. So that issue was resolved.

- I didn't talk to Mr. Burke until I was level 17. And I figured if I failed the speech challenge to get double the pay I would approach Lucas Simms instead and see whether he would ante up. To my surprise Mr. Burke agreed. So I went to see Simms anyway. I reckoned if he were to meet my demand for more money -still only half of what Burke had promised me- I would defuse the bomb instead of rigging it to explode. I fully expected to fail the second speech challenge, but like Burke Simms agreed. So instead of blowing up Megaton I saved the town.

- Stumbling upon Agatha's house I sort of humored the old woman without becoming too mushy. But being a merc I asked her what would be in it for me if I got her the violin. Only her frequency? So I tried the speech challenge that this was going to cost me. I had a 44 percent chance of success -which is unusually high for my character. About eleven times more than it is most of the time. But I failed it anyway. So I left -and this is perhaps a bit of a cheat as Agatha never told me the location of the violin, so basically my character doesn't know where to look for it. But since I'd already finished the game multiple times I pretty much know where to find most quest items- went to Vault 92, got me the fiddle and sold it to Abraham Washington at Rivet City. I tried his speech challenge for an additional 100 caps and succeeded. Scr*w you, Agatha. You want to play it cheap, you lose. This kind of behaviour is already quite an improvement to my regular response of merely shooting Agatha when she doesn't want to pay up.

 

So basically I decided what to do, based on knowledge I had acquired on previous playthroughs of the game. I knew what I could expect from most of those NPC's and decided what my response would be if I would fail a speech challenge, before it would show up in dialogue. That way I'd commit myself to a certain course of action -simply leave, shoot and loot, or help someone out of a tough spot instead. I must say that this strategy has been the most satisfactory way of playing sofar. I don't merely blast away everything that has a pulse like someone in a constant state of psychotic rage. But I don't offer my help for free either. Whoever pays up, is going to be the winner.

The same with Crowley and Tenpenny. When Tenpenny refused to pay me more for not shooting him, he was dead meat. Had he met my demands, Crowley would have gotten a bullet instead. Like Colin Morisrty said: "It's called economics, kid".

So if my Merc attitude gives me bad karma, so be it. If I get to do some good on the side, well, okay.

Sofar it has netted me more good karma then bad karma, but let's wait until the end of the game.

Good or evil? I'd rather think of it as business; I get paid what I want, then I'll help out and if that's considered doing good, fine. If people refuse to meet my monetary demands, then they're on their own. If that's evil, well, tough t*tty to them.

And if you think thast money is the root of all evil.... let's not go that way, shall we?

[Deleted54170User]

Discovery is the best part of human nature. The game still intrigues me with the variety of choice's to see if another angle can be found. That is why I am playing it again. The farming for love and affectionate pats on the ego is fine once around. The game does not let us slip entirely into the good puppy mode though. In fact is almost as if it the suggestive bad karma marks for picking some one who was a good NPC when we had nothing to do with their demise was a suggestion to stop being so damned nice and start acting like businessmen.

 

Alehazar suggests a full understanding being all business and that should be the leading factor if we are to walk out the front door into the light of day. Afterall, isn't life more likely to bite us in the back side if we don't get a little tougher skinned, sharpen our teeth, and finger nails'. I played a vampire in MORROWIND, did not like a ll the difference's, but life doesn't always serve Noka-cola and Fancy cakes. Sometimes bitter sweet coffee with no sugar or cream and rolls spiced with cinnamon aren't so bad.

[romulas21]

Have you ever noticed that most of all of the evil things you can do in fallout you only do cuz your an jackass not just a crook who wants to make it big quick, i mean think about blowing up megaton that punk said he would pay you...what was it....... 500 caps to slaughter at least 30 people and leave a black cloud over the smoked hole you made that will be there for hundreds of years to come.....and what 500 caps i know you get a home in the deal later but remember you didnt know that at the time......know that, thats just no fun all you get is a lame house next to a bunch of rich snobs and 500 caps.....also another lame evil moment, you've battled your way threw hundreds of deadly enclave troops make your way to the top of the moble platform and now you come to a computer with the launch codes and the targets.......and you decide to blow up the brotherhood of steel mine base in DC.....why....you felt like it.........WHAT!! it doesnt make any sense why would you just kill the people you worked with for so long for no reason other then just being a jackass i like a reason to be evil like you hungry and dieing in the wasteland...then you see a family with food so you hold em up and take it...and maybe shoot one of them if they move...those are good reasons to be Evil....not just...i felt like it

 

but fallout did have two good Evil parts in it like tranquility lane and the pitt in tranquility lane as we all know you were locked in with no way out then to play along with the evil deeds of some man who seemingly lost his mind a long time ago...and the pitt where you had to deside what to do with a town of slaves and a family and there baby

 

its not that i just don't like to be Evil in games i know for a fact that i do, i played both Fables and walked down a endless path of mayhem while i did i just need a good reason to be a bad person

 

A few thoughts. In lore of books and games everywhere the essence of evil is chaos. Now, if the brotherhood survives they will directly oppose this by bringing order, in the same way as if the enclave win. Brotherhood imposes a good order, and enclave imposes an evil order. For the truely evil person both of these outcomes are opposite of his/her desires. If my character is evil why would he leave either groups intact to oppose his rule in the future?

 

Romulas

[gsmanners]

To be fair, there is a pretty big difference between video game "evil" and realistic evil. Getting too realistic can really ruin the fun of a game.

 

Video games: Villains + melodrama + big explosions = evil

Reality: Pride + jealousy + narrow-mindedness = evil

[Alastair91]

Being evil sucks, less gameplay. same goes for Dragon age origins.

[Rixirite]

Yeah Evil isn't the star of the game. But for me I really can't be evil because it is just senseless and atrocious.

 

However, they should have allowed you to become a raider or Talon Company merc and work your way up the ranks. Fallout 3 is lacking "Guilds" in which you are recruited. I know that you can become a regulator, or a contract killer but the story behind these jobs are minimalistic and vague at best. You simple collect fingers, or ears and deliver them to the agents, nothing more then money rewards and karma..

 

To me Fallout 3, even though it is a awesome game, and even better with the additional modifications made by all of you I found the original game in itself to have a monotonous storyline and quests. It is always find this, find that, get this, get that, rescue them, rescue her, etc.

 

 

BTW I hate the Arefu quest. I kill all the Family members that Evan King was complaining about needing hell to be payed, etc and arefu and the west kid turns on me.. I thought Evan kind wanted them dead.. I don't know, maybe the west kid told him the story and Evan got angry with me, but I am a badass explorer who took out a whole colony of vampires, and they have the balls to stand up against me, with my power armor and flame thrower?

[evilneko]

Old thread is old.. but since it's back... *shrug*

 

So much hate for Arefu. Of course, it's well deserved. ;) Blaze had a pretty similar reaction to Evan King, not to mention the rest of Arefu. Except that she didn't kill any of them. She just took off and never looked back. "What, first you try to ban me up, then you want me to knock on everyone's door and send me into the West's house where I had to see their gross mangled bodies and now you want me to go on this hunt for a dangerous gang and you're not even going to give me anything for my trouble? And all because you're too chicken to move? Screw you! I'm twelve, just came out of a vault, and I got more guts in my pinky then you have in your whole body."

 

(although, granted, the dialog's written as if the player character was an adult and Beth probably never imagined a mod like CUTE... which just makes it all the creepier when a child PC visits Girdershade, lol)

 

I wish there were better writing, a few more choices, and maybe even an option to set the record straight with Three Dog. On my first playthrough, adult-Kuroe (supposedly a goody-goody) ended up killing Roy Philips. Not because she wanted to, but because she said the wrong thing, and Roy and the gang turned hostile and attacked her. It was self defense, dammit.

 

And speaking of Roy Philips, doing the "Good" thing there leaves one with a bitter taste in their mouth, given that the ghouls just slaughter the humans anyway, not to mention turn the place into a dump. Too bad you can't tell Three Dog about that one, so that he can flame the ghouls just like he'd do to you if you killed them. Then there's the fact that being "good" means you're pretty much everyone's brave little errand girl. So does that mean it's also lame to be good? :confused: Hmm.

[Alehazar]

Being evil sucks, less gameplay. same goes for Dragon age origins.

 

 

That's usually the way it goes. But these socalled RPG's would be more fun if the roleplaying element would be emphasized, instead of neglected. That way moral choices would lead to a higher degree of immersion.

It's usually quite obvious what dialogue options will lead you on to the path of righteousness, or the path of corruption.

It'd be more fun -in a roleplaying sense- that the dialogue of NPC's would rely on a series of prerequisites.

As in Neverwinter Nights, a high or low charisma had much more of an impact than it seems to have in Fallout 3.

Your decisions to either pursue good or evil had a more profound impact on the people you would subsequently meet

If the NPC dialogue would be more cued to a variety of variables you'd really have to work to get a high success rate in solving quests. I think it would be quite interesting that if my character was asked to free some hostages or slaves and I would not be a very smooth talker since I invested my skillpoints in other areas, then perhaps to complete such a noble task I'd have to do some really sneaky and despicable things to get the job done; you know backstab some people, break in to places, steal, get caught, being forced to kill some good guys in the process while I try to escape and save my skin.

If my character would truly be subjected to the elements -either in natural environment or in human nature of NPC's- then my Player might be forced to forego the path of righteousness at times, simply to stay alive. Trying to decide whether the evil I perpetrate is done to achieve a greater good. Those are choioces that could spice up any RPG.

That's why I liked The Pitt so much, because regardless which side you pick, in the end I still feel like a total male without a father; either a lot of slaves die and they will be forced into submission through even harder methods for an indefinte time. Or I hand over an infant to a man who quite evidently does not care for the child's wellbeing, other than keeping it alive to experiment on and produce a cure.

That I considered to be a tough moral choice, that had tainted implications regardless of the final choice.

Now if Bethesda could create a follow-up of that decision -or simply update your quest log some X amount days after conclusion of The Pitt with a random message based on your choice. That Wernher got frustrated and the babby died due to rough treatment, or that the babydied of some other, more mundane disease and the slaves would never be cured, so now they need to keep this info from spreading through the slave population. Then another random update that the word got out and the slaves rebelled for a second time. Another random update whether the slaves were crushed completely and the Pitt society -without its slave labour- would slowly collapse. Maybe those random updates could be accompanied by those slideshow supported comments narrated by Ron Perlman when the Main Quest ends. Show me that my actions have consequences -either for good or for bad. How much evil must I perpetrate to achieve a noble goal -a greater good. How many good deeds of mine will ultimately result in mayhem and senseless slaughter?

 

Now that would be interesting role playing -in my opinion.

Though I doubt it would make for popular games.

People either simply want to feel good about playing through a game and getting to be a hero when the curtains close -having saved the day, yay!.

Or they simply want to shoot/stab/slash/kill almost everything that has a pulse or is still breathing -and vent some anger and frustration.

 

Either end of the scales does not require game designers to put a lot of backbone into their games.

As long as it looks great, is mainly bug free, has a player friendly interface, a cool arsenal of weapons and has some nice killing blow animations -and meets more of such things a game is measured by- a game can become a huge hit.

A little more novelties and innovations and some sense of originality seems to have some kind of appeal -somewhere.

 

It'd be nice for game developers to release a game that would have more alternative routes to reach your main quest goal.

A concept that was incorporated into the Hitman series; the goal is simple: kill the target within the specified parameters.

Many solutions, many various results -i.e. "ratings"- if you get the job done. Of course, this type of concept is not so easily implemented into games as Fallout 3, or Dragon Age Origins, but surely some creative brains can come up with something a little more challenging than simply "go there, get this, give object to, kill him, save her, show mercy, annihilate all, shoot to kill, etc.".

If the only way to spice up the game is changing the difficulty setting to "insane", so that enemies are harder to kill and allies more difficult to heal and that more enemies swarm around the battlefield and enemy weapons can do more damage and allied weapons wreak less havoc......

 

Alright, enough already. Bottomline, let my actions or inactions have more profound consequences and/or repercussions; make dialogue options not so blatantly obvious, give me something to contemplate, so I can rack my brain as to what kind of ripples or waves my choice of words/response might cause.

Back to basics like the Quest for Glory series; Fight, Sneak or Use some Magic and start running when your out of mana -or create a feeble hybrid. (I'm going to shut up now).

[evilmicevil]

Fallout and oblivion have always been a hard games to be evil in...you take a few things get into a few fights and next thing you know all the towns are empty, no people anywhere