Union Car or Socialist Car?

[phoneyLogic]

Yeah a very nice and clean technology would be the solarthermie.

Mirrors collect the energie that is used to heat water.

And the stem energie can be used to drive a turbine.

http://www.loaditup.de/files/415015.jpg

Of course, this method is not that efficient like nuclear reactors yet...

 

There is a promising project called Desertec that could be an important step to a new and cleaner energie.

http://www.loaditup.de/files/415016.jpg

- wiki -

 

But at least I'm not sure, if it would be enough to substitute oil with electricity.

[Monolithic0117]

I pretty much agree with theLeeHarvey on this topic. I don't think there's any need to elaborate further.

 

I don't think this thread has a bright future.

 

But as much as this thread is interesting; as Nexus Set said, it is basically going nowhere.

And this discussion about energy technologies is slowly veering off-topic.

[species5478]

What?

 

Anyway...if the question is socialist cars, or capitalists, then I have this to say...

 

I've WORKED in both kinds of factories, and at all levels. Guess what? There's no difference. They both operate the same way. They both sell each others parts. They both screw over the worker, to the benefit of the CEO. They're the same. Funny thing though...the WORKERS on both sides fight hard trying to tell the other side, they're wrong...

[dezdimona]

What?

 

Anyway...if the question is socialist cars, or capitalists, then I have this to say...

 

I've WORKED in both kinds of factories, and at all levels. Guess what? There's no difference. They both operate the same way. They both sell each others parts. They both screw over the worker, to the benefit of the CEO. They're the same. Funny thing though...the WORKERS on both sides fight hard trying to tell the other side, they're wrong...

you tell em honey. Union yes with equality and benefits.I buy union made vehicles only alsways will

[milogrim]

My advice get yours before someone else takes it, its the American way. No one is looking out for you but you, get the best car for you. I don't see why people insist that life must be fair. Besides if life is unfair to anyone its to that kid in a sweatshop making your shoes, or that family in Africa bayoneted for that diamond on your finger, the Latino washing your dishes for 5 dollars an hour, the American Indians land your house is trespassing on, Iraq burning so we can enjoy cheap gas, while the CEO of GMC drives off into the sunset in his Lexus, towards his villa in France. The foreigners bleed and the earth trembles to sustain our American way of life.

 

This is the way it is, this is us...not pretty? Well if you can't stomach it you can always become Amish, they have all American made stuff. Then preach about American made products, just not on internet (don't think Amish post much) Step down from the shoulders of the world that props up your way of life then talk. You try wash dishes for $5, or lets have union made Nikes for a grand, how much is a gallon of petro in Berlin, $10 US?

 

I'm sorry but this debate over foreign labor and American pride seems very selfish and narrow minded, so I apologies for being harsh, I just get frustrated hearing this ignorant propaganda that we are the victims, when we are the wolves. If it makes you feel any better think of it this way, you have already bought an American car you just can't drive it or see it, and you'll be paying for it in tax's for generations to come...enjoy!

[Rixirite]

But there is a difference. Compare a Honda Factory in Japan with one in America. The Japanese are so efficient and thier manufacturing is so fast that every 60 minutes they actually complete one motorcycle. In the US it takes 3-4 hours in a American plant. The Honda plant in America is in Illinois which is a forced union state. If people are going to go on strike and whine about not getting enough breaks and underpaid then the best they could do is at least have the same production competence and efficiency as the Japanese plant, otherwise I would like to buy a Japanese-assembled motorcycle instead of a American-assembled motorcycle from people who make 60 dollars an hour and drain the money out of the company to the point where the government has to bail them out because the company cannot afford to keep making cars and giving paychecks to union employees who don't even pay off from thier work.

 

When it comes to manufacturing and unions it becomes political because the US government has made it political using taxpayer dollars to keep these god-forsaken plants up and running when instead that money could go to a bunch of starving people and people with no roof on thier shack. I would rather see my money feed starving children in Africa then my money go to a bunch of spoiled assembly line workers who have a roof and have a meal at the table. Sorry but the US government says they want to help the poor yet they do not, they take the money and give it to companies that deserve to fail and go bankrupt, it has happened before it should happen now.

 

Milogrim, my father works for a company that does nothing but does Labor Audits on foreign countries like China and Africa and Taiwan. The Company is an IT one and they dedicate thier jobs to finding out if laborers are abused or poorly fed, etc., then they take those reports and data and send it to the companies that have work forces in that country and if there is a Labor Audit failure then the company will stop it.

 

Believe me, I boycott products that are made in China, etc because it is immoral. Companies can be terrible by doing cheap trade at the expense of slavery. The reason why companies are overseas when it comes to manufacturing is because our government in the past 30 years has raised taxes on manufacturing in America which drives out the manufacturing industry in our country along with thousands of jobs.

 

Iraq isn't burning? Last I checked woman and children are going to school and they are becoming a more peaceful nation. Please don't derail this thread.

[milogrim]

I get into these debates a lot with friends and workers about foreign labor and immigrants. What people seem to be missing is that they almost always are the immigrant, and many things they have and enjoy depend on cheap foreign labor. America has been built on cheap foreign labor from day one: African slaves, Irish immigrants, Chinese, German, Mexican, Italians, Polish. If you are any of these people at one time some English man cried (insert nationality) are taking our jobs and driving down wages! Difference today is now its easier to import the product instead of the people. Rejecting it is basically rejecting our history and way of life. The mine the German immigrants worked in creating your little town, the railroad the Chinese immigrant made to move the coal, the road to the city the Irish immigrant made, the skyscraper the Italian immigrant made in your city, the house the polish immigrant made you live in, the Indian who land was swindled for you to live on, the Mexican who picks the food you eat. All these people suffered as much or more than anyone today is.

 

Exploiting the weak doesn't look like it's ever gonna change, I want to be wrong about this, but the evidence convinces me I'm not. How it all works out I don't know but here we are, living in luxury enjoying the life most people couldn't dream of. Is it the fate of man to be either slave or master or both? I feel like both myself. Can one day it be fair for everyone?

 

And to Rixirite, Iraq is another subject all together I'll agree, but not off topic. If it where cheaper to drill oil here we would and it would create tons of jobs. Suddam Hussien was a shrewd and ruthless dictator with his sights on controlling the oil in Arab nations, backed by the once 3rd largest army in the world. Doing business with him would be far less profitable then doing business with a spoiled Arabian prince fascinated by jewels and palaces. He could have protected his own interests and developed his own ports, shipping, surveying, and drilling, cutting us out of the picture. Ya he was a bad man but that's not why we are there, if Rwandan had oil fields we would have been there 94. Another people to exploit.

[Vagrant0]

But there is a difference. Compare a Honda Factory in Japan with one in America. The Japanese are so efficient and thier manufacturing is so fast that every 60 minutes they actually complete one motorcycle. In the US it takes 3-4 hours in a American plant. The Honda plant in America is in Illinois which is a forced union state. If people are going to go on strike and whine about not getting enough breaks and underpaid then the best they could do is at least have the same production competence and efficiency as the Japanese plant, otherwise I would like to buy a Japanese-assembled motorcycle instead of a American-assembled motorcycle from people who make 60 dollars an hour and drain the money out of the company to the point where the government has to bail them out because the company cannot afford to keep making cars and giving paychecks to union employees who don't even pay off from thier work.

Different country, different perspective on fair practices. Please do some research on the social and cultural practices before you try to create any assumptions about something like this. It is a totally different environment and totally different employee mentality... Long before anything like unions gets factored in. Also, sometimes it is not about producing things as quick as you can, but instead producing them according to the vehicle standards of that country, or answering to demand.

 

When it comes to manufacturing and unions it becomes political because the US government has made it political using taxpayer dollars to keep these god-forsaken plants up and running when instead that money could go to a bunch of starving people and people with no roof on thier shack. I would rather see my money feed starving children in Africa then my money go to a bunch of spoiled assembly line workers who have a roof and have a meal at the table. Sorry but the US government says they want to help the poor yet they do not, they take the money and give it to companies that deserve to fail and go bankrupt, it has happened before it should happen now.

Ok, now you've stopped making sense. It is not about helping poor people, it is about making sure that one of the domestic industries does not go belly up. It's all about economy. Economically speaking, it does far better to give money to people within your country so that they can buy stuff and keep that money in circulation within the country than it is to send the money off somewhere else. Maybe your biases are preventing you from thinking clearly.

 

Milogrim, my father works for a company that does nothing but does Labor Audits on foreign countries like China and Africa and Taiwan. The Company is an IT one and they dedicate thier jobs to finding out if laborers are abused or poorly fed, etc., then they take those reports and data and send it to the companies that have work forces in that country and if there is a Labor Audit failure then the company will stop it.

And yet, you only seem to see union labor as people who are lazy, greedy, and demand a cushy lifestyle. Somehow I get the feeling that either you are lying about this, or just totally misunderstand what it is your father does, and why he does it.

 

Believe me, I boycott products that are made in China, etc because it is immoral. Companies can be terrible by doing cheap trade at the expense of slavery. The reason why companies are overseas when it comes to manufacturing is because our government in the past 30 years has raised taxes on manufacturing in America which drives out the manufacturing industry in our country along with thousands of jobs.

It's nice that you're trying to make a difference, but you don't really understand what is happening. China can have cheap labor because they don't care about the well being of the people in that country. If someone in that country were to speak up for themselves and demand fair treatment or suggest a strike, they would likely be beaten, imprisoned or killed. Oh yeah... and they're a Communist state. Over here in the US, workers are allowed to have a voice, and owners are held responsible for any mistreatment. It's not a question of morality, but the local practices which are encouraged by the government in that area. If you have a lack of freedoms, you have a system similar to slavery, if you have a doctrine of freedoms protecting employees you have systems similar to unions. Unions exist to protect employee rights in places where they are likely to be infringed upon, such as dangerous, dirty, or low paid labor. The purpose of the union is to provide a support structure for when there is exploitation, and a means for providing assistance to employees in terms of retirement benefits, health coverage, education, and incentives for continued employment. If someone has been working on an assembly line for 40-50 years, there is no way for them to find a higher paying job (they're 60+ years old, likely have no degree, and have been doing nothing other than that job for the last 40-50 years... dur), and there is no way they would be able to retire, or even live on the same pay that some fresh employee makes. They earn more because they have been with the company longer, have shown themselves to be reliable, have greater financial requirements, and have experience which sometimes gets passed on to other workers. They get paid what they have because they have earned it... Oh... and at that point the pay rate is not much different between union and non-union labor, even the dumbest owners can see the value in keeping quality employees around.

 

That statement also seems to conflict quite significantly with your "unions are evil" stance, which only further suggests that your only experiences with unions have been within the context of strikes or demands. I've worked in both union and non-union manufacturing. The starting pay was about the same between the two, but while I had to pay dues in the union shop, my training was better, I got better medical coverage, and the standards of employee safety were much higher. In the non-union shop, I didn't have to pay dues, received decent training, had to get my own medical coverage, was more prone to injury, and was fired without a moment's notice just because business was slowing. Although my experiences are probably not typical, it has shown me first hand the benefits of being part of a union.

 

Finally, people will ALWAYS complain about their jobs, union and not. A union won't strike or make demands just because a few people aren't happy with the job. They only intervene when many within an order have significant issues that need to be resolved. People who complain constantly just don't last long in most labor positions, and can often be pressured by co-workers to find a different job. That said, if you're going to blame anything, blame people for wanting to afford food, housing, or having children. Blame them for not wanting to live in poorly constructed shacks, drinking raw sewage, or living off whatever rats, birds, squirrels and such they can trap and kill. I can assure you that the quality of life in most of those places where people aren't paid a decent wage, or where things are being manufactured cheaply is about as low as you can get while still having a life to attribute quality to. It's awfully easy to be someone living in the suburbs, who has one or both parents making a good living, wanting to buy stuff for a fair price, but insisting that those who made that stuff are less entitled. It's no wonder you don't understand how the economy or labor system works, your whole life you have been benefiting from the hard work of others, don't understand what hard work really is, and take their efforts, and even right for living for granted. It's not the people in union factories who are spoiled... It's people like YOU who are spoiled. It's a matter of perception, and you quite simply are in no position to judge (even if your facts were correct).

[dezdimona]

The Honda plant in America is in Illinois which is a forced union state.

It's not a "forced union state" It is along with most of the midwest and California and New York one of the last strong Union states.But a forced Union State! Hardly.People recognize what equality and a fair paycheck is in these states and fight for it. Because japanese companies produce and flood the market doen't make their products better..check Toyotas latest recall stats and nissans...OOPs!

 

Fair wage for fair working hours is not a given,it has to be like freedom foughten for.Big money will always say unions are bad because unions want their employees given a fair shake.Read up on labor before the unions came into being. I think you'll find an eye opener into why Big business and some governments hate them..equallity over slavery...anyday my friend!

[jaysus]

If someone in that country were to speak up for themselves and demand fair treatment or suggest a strike, they would likely be beaten, imprisoned or killed. Oh yeah... and they're a Communist state. Over here in the US, workers are allowed to have a voice, and owners are held responsible for any mistreatment. It's not a question of morality, but the local practices which are encouraged by the government in that area. If you have a lack of freedoms, you have a system similar to slavery

 

"real communism" would mean that everyone would get their say... its basicly the same principle as a democracy, the difference on paper is simply that communism goes way deeper for the descicion finding based on councils and smaller councils until you are one of the council members whereas in a democracy you simply vote for someone to make your say

this is also the main flaw in communism, it takes ages to make a descicion, thus we krauts exported it to russia and succeded in crushing the eastern front this way in WW1

nevertheless there is no "real" communism as there is no "real" democracy anywhere on earth, both systems decided that it would be clever to cut all those low level folks out to find desicions swifter and simply reinstated the good ol monarchies or oligarchies.

 

regarding slavery, if you look up the word in any dictionary youll find somin along these lines: "slavery is a sytem in which the employe or slaver decide themselves how much the worth of labour is, which is not necessarily based on the actual worth the worker reflects in union with the current economical system but simply how much the employee/slaver want them to have, this usually does not exceed the minimum needed to life"

thus we live in a world of slavery, those that control institutes like the FED or ECB can determine the worth of money by adjusting interest rates, they basicly control everything that depends on money and our wages are the most important influenced item in this as are the companies that give them. i can see it here in krautland, i have a bunch of friends who are top notch craftsmen but live on the border to poverty, not because they have no job at all but because the money they earn is barely enough to pay the rent, none of them can even think of affording a kid. And this is sadly the trend, those 2% of the population which are CEOs of banks or managers of big ass companies like porsche get the big fat cut but those that are working day in day out like *ban* workhorses barely survive, and every now and then the banking *pooppeople* decide to juggle some numbers and boom everybody gets poorer but them... this is essentially slavery as the wages are decided by will and not by market worth. If you have a lil insight into economics one can really get anbgry watching them make descicions which affect all of us and which are always screwed to the bone... history wise they dont fare better, they artificially created all the economical crisises of at least the last century and profitted from them.

 

btw, OP, who told you the iraq is fine? the iraq was quite fine before the empire invaded... they had schools, universities, hospitals, law 'n' order and so on... those 2 schools they have now are a mere joke lol...

saddam cared for his own problems alone, the '91 incident was due to kuwait breaking some important OPAQ treaties under us pressure and thus teased saddam to attack, if he hadnt saudi arabia would have most likely done so...

also did iraq never have the 3rd biggest army in the world ever (not even during ancient times)... 3 biggest since '45: usa, russia, china... somewhere along the lines of angola, SA, australia and so on comes iraq...

 

@psyclops

plz resize your pictures, it takes ages to load this very page ;)

oh and btw, modern solar plants dont heat the water with sunlight directly (this is nower days mostly used in single applications for 3rd world developement like water cleaning), modern ones create electricty by using the photoelectric effect (actually they do since the 60ties)