Which side are you on?

[erisi236]

Stormcloaks, I hold a grudge over the Imperials wanting to behead me at the start of the game without even being on their list, jerks.

[Kraeten]

 

Way to intentionally misunderstand and misrepresent every point in my post.

 

I never once expressed, explicitly or implicitly, any views on the intentions of any real world leaders or rulers. I spoke of Ulfric, and Ulfric alone. But if you want me to reference a real world leader who actively exploited the fears and racial prejudices of the people under his leadership with the sole goal of securing a greater position of power, I suggest you crack open a history book and take a look at ~1932. He'll stand out, he was a pretty big deal at the time.

 

Ah yes, the Hitler analogy. You Imps sure love comparing Ulfric to Hitler. Nevermind the disparity of when they existed, or that your lukewarm definition could just as easily be applied to the GOP. Need I remind you there's nothing to keep the Dunmer or the Argonians from leaving Windhelm? Most important of all the Empire's occupation of Windhelm doesn't impove their prospects in any way whatsoever. So it's a moot point of discussion really.

 

But by all means talk about racism, when Windhelm's own stables are owned and operated by an Altmer of all races. They have an Altmer general goods merchant too. In addition there are two Dark Elf merchants. If Ulfric is trying to oppress the elves in Windhelm, he's doing a damn poor job of it by letting them largely control most of the businesses. As for the argonians, they can't be allowed into the city because of the racial tension between them and the Dunmer....who served as their former slave-masters. Bruunwulf knows this just as well as Ulfric does, which is why they're left living in the docks regardless of whether or not the Imperials capture Windhelm.

 

Regarding Hammerfell, you're quite mistaken. When the Dominion continued fighting there after the White-Gold Concordant, they threw themselves upon the Redguard for five years before giving up, and all the while they had nothing to fear from the Empire who had effecitvely surrendered Hammerfell to them. It was no token force they used against the Redguard.

 

As for Ulfric's state of mind, that's very much arguable. Does he lust after glory? Sure, but that's what a Nord does. They're a people who aspire to die as proud warriors and so enter Sovngarde. Like the Norse that inspired their creation, they love music and especially the telling of sagas.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Kraeten

[kleinstaff]

 

 

 

 

 

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

while i keep to my opinion that the empire has become weak and corrupt

the real evil in this whole civil war is Ulfric himself

not the stormcloaks not the imperial soldiers

Ulfric is using nationalistic and racial themes for his own personal gains and that is power further more if you read the thalmor report on ulfric it completely undermines the religious and racial motives why Ulfric started this rebellion

 

the use of nationalistic themes to rally people behind your cause is a old idea and been used for as long people organised themselves both in ES as in RL

 

and do you really think Ulfric will allow you to stay alive ; in the long run you as the dragonborn are a bigger threat to his power than the empire or the thalmor

 

No ulfric is a deluded powerhungry douchebag who blames every thing that went wrong on the empire , even tho this was most likely planted in him during his captivity by the thalmor

[glowbow11]

 

 

 

 

 

 

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

while i keep to my opinion that the empire has become weak and corrupt

the real evil in this whole civil war is Ulfric himself

not the stormcloaks not the imperial soldiers

Ulfric is using nationalistic and racial themes for his own personal gains and that is power further more if you read the thalmor report on ulfric it completely undermines the religious and racial motives why Ulfric started this rebellion

 

the use of nationalistic themes to rally people behind your cause is a old idea and been used for as long people organised themselves both in ES as in RL

 

and do you really think Ulfric will allow you to stay alive ; in the long run you as the dragonborn are a bigger threat to his power than the empire or the thalmor

 

No ulfric is a deluded powerhungry douchebag who blames every thing that went wrong on the empire , even tho this was most likely planted in him during his captivity by the thalmor

 

Also, when the white gold concordat was signed the legion and the dominion didn't strictly ban the worship of talos, they didn't care much, but then ulfric had to make such a big deal from something that doesn't even happen. after ulfric did what he did the dominion started to be more strict, and ulfric got just what he wanted.

[Hyacathusarullistad]

Ah yes, the Hitler analogy. You Imps sure love comparing Ulfric to Hitler. Nevermind the disparity of when they existed, or that your lukewarm definition could just as easily be applied to the GOP.

I thought it was clear that I was mocking the notion of comparing Ulfric to any real world political figure, historical or otherwise. My apologies if it wasn't. I chose Hitler for the same simple reason you no doubt chose to refer to me as an "Imp" - to elicit an emotional response. A weak discussion tactic that I think we can both rise above from this point forward.

 

Need I remind you there's nothing to keep the Dunmer or the Argonians from leaving Windhelm? Most important of all the Empire's occupation of Windhelm doesn't impove their prospects in any way whatsoever. So it's a moot point of discussion really.

These people have literally nothing - many of them barely even clothes on their back - and you want them to travel deeper into a province that's not only renowned for being harsh and untameable, but has also so far done nothing but malign and antagonise them simply for existing. They are being kept in Windhelm by conditions that prohibit them from doing anything but desperately trying to simply to feed themselves. Moving elsewhere in such circumstances just isn't viable. And I think the lack of change in an Imperial Windhelm is due to the poor storytelling and lacklustre consequences Skyrim has become so beloved for than it does with any in-universe difference between the powers. But there's little evidence to either support or refute such a belief, so I suppose it is indeed moot.

 

But by all means talk about racism, when Windhelm's own stables are owned and operated by an Altmer of all races. They have an Altmer general goods merchant too. In addition there are two Dark Elf merchants. If Ulfric is trying to oppress the elves in Windhelm, he's doing a damn poor job of it by letting them largely control most of the businesses.

You've mistaken my viewpoint entirely. I never once stated that Ulfric was racist. Anyone who does so is kidding themselves. Racism indicates stupidity and ignorance, and Ulfric is anything but. I said that he exploits the fear and prejudice of his people. There's a difference. When honest, respected Nords come to him and speak of the injustice levied out by the people of Windhelm, what does he do? He allows it, and thus encourages it. After all, why full out deny Altmer or Dunmer the freedom to set up shops and businesses when he can encourage fear and prejudice to fester and spread like a cancer, rallying more and more people to his "cause" every time those dirty greyskins try to make things better for themselves?

 

As for the argonians, they can't be allowed into the city because of the racial tension between them and the Dunmer....who served as their former slave-masters. Bruunwulf knows this just as well as Ulfric does, which is why they're left living in the docks regardless of whether or not the Imperials capture Windhelm.

A fair point. Conceded.

 

Regarding Hammerfell, you're quite mistaken. When the Dominion continued fighting there after the White-Gold Concordant, they threw themselves upon the Redguard for five years before giving up, and all the while they had nothing to fear from the Empire who had effecitvely surrendered Hammerfell to them. It was no token force they used against the Redguard.

I don't believe I'm mistaken at all. But again I suppose there's no evidence (to my knowledge) one way or the other regarding the state or scale of the Thalmor presence in Hammerfell following the Great War.

 

As for Ulfric's state of mind, that's very much arguable.

No it's not. Ulfric purposefully and publically decried the White-Gold Concordat, effectively inviting the Thalmor into Skyrim and creating the very enemy he needed to rally people to his flag, all for the sake of his own ego. He would see all of Skyrim razed, its people butchered and burnt, so long as he's the one who wins the glory of hopelessly defending them - defending them from a scenario he knowingly and intentionally created for the purpose. He feels nothing for the people of Skyrim, only for his own goals; yet he understands and masterfully manipulates the feelings of others to get what he wants with no regard for what it might mean for them. That's a textbook sociopath.

 

Does he lust after glory? Sure, but that's what a Nord does. They're a people who aspire to die as proud warriors and so enter Sovngarde. Like the Norse that inspired their creation, they love music and especially the telling of sagas.

There's a stark contrast between attaining glory through the pursuit a noble cause and exploiting and sacrificing good people to create the illusion of a noble cause.

 

 

 

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

... that axiom has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, mate. The Empire does not have absolute power. Very far from it. In fact the Empire's instability and weakness is the very reason we're having this discussion in the first place, as the Stormcloak rebellion couldn't be happening otherwise.

 

while i keep to my opinion that the empire has become weak and corrupt

Weak? Yup. You betcha. Never been weaker, I'd say. But corrupt? Nope, sorry, doesn't fit the bill. That being said, I don't know why I'm arguing with you. We have effectively the same opinion, and we're arguing semantics. :tongue:

Edited April 9, 2014 by Hyacathusarullistad

[Shubal]

You read the Thalmore document on Ulfric and continue to puzzle about right and wrong? Must be the same people who don't read mod descriptions.

[kysadhuras79]

Im german please dont bring Hitler to Skyrim. :mellow:

 

 

Stormcloaks, I hold a grudge over the Imperials wanting to behead me at the start of the game without even being on their list, jerks.

 

Could be my words

[Kraeten]

You've mistaken my viewpoint entirely. I never once stated that Ulfric was racist. Anyone who does so is kidding themselves. Racism indicates stupidity and ignorance, and Ulfric is anything but. I said that he exploits the fear and prejudice of his people. There's a difference. When honest, respected Nords come to him and speak of the injustice levied out by the people of Windhelm, what does he do? He allows it, and thus encourages it. After all, why full out deny Altmer or Dunmer the freedom to set up shops and businesses when he can encourage fear and prejudice to fester and spread like a cancer, rallying more and more people to his "cause" every time those dirty greyskins try to make things better for themselves?

 

Except he never stokes up a hatred for all elves. The Nords already have reason enough to hate the Thalmor, after they forbid them from worshipping one of their foremost Gods. If you can point to a souce that proves his race-baiting, by all means do so. As for his making a fuss about the whitegold concordant, he had good reason to. It was a completely BS treaty that effectively gave the Dominion what they'd demanded in the first place before the Great War.

 

 

No it's not. Ulfric purposefully and publically decried the White-Gold Concordat, effectively inviting the Thalmor into Skyrim and creating the very enemy he needed to rally people to his flag, all for the sake of his own ego. He would see all of Skyrim razed, its people butchered and burnt, so long as he's the one who wins the glory of hopelessly defending them - defending them from a scenario he knowingly and intentionally created for the purpose. He feels nothing for the people of Skyrim, only for his own goals; yet he understands and masterfully manipulates the feelings of others to get what he wants with no regard for what it might mean for them. That's a textbook sociopath.

There's no proof Ulfric purposefully invited the Thalmor into Skyrim. As for not caring about Skyrim's fate, that's demonstrably untrue. Ulfric is filled with nothing but regret for the role he played in starting the civil war, should you discover him in Sovngarde. It's also apparent in the conversation he has with Galmar he'd have preferred to take Whiterun without bloodshed. He isn't a sociopath.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Kraeten