Eltiraaz Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 To say that every thing else on the planet, and even every organism in the universe, is not self aware is not only arrogant, but downright stupid. When I use the word 'concious' I refer to feelings of guilt, and knowing the difference between right and wrong, human emotions, not self-awareness. It's called a brain. And you should use it more often, rather than believing a work of fiction just because it has the word "HOLY" printed on it. You'll be quite PO-ed to know that there are more documents (outside of the bible) that prove that Jesus was born, lived, died on the cross, and came back to life then there is to prove that Adolf Hitler was ever born (not to say that he wasn't, but it's interesting how the truth survives the ages isn't it?). I do have a brain and I use it quite often. :angry: I don't believe the bible just because it claims to be truth, I believe it because I have read it and found that it is quite informative. Aside from that, living by God's word will take me to heaven. I'm sorry I wont be seeing you there. I suppose it is my turn. All you bible thumpers out there, please prove, beyond any possible doubt, that the Christian diety exists. Maybe you should have read the second half of my post, instead of taking personal offense at the first one.. I can't believe no matter how hard I try that it is a pure fluke that every single infinate blade of grass and snowflake is completely different. Us humans are amazing things. Theres no way I can believe that all the love, hate, and other emotions came into being because two atoms went *clunk*. When you take the time to think about it, it sounds pretty pathetic doesn't it. I have faith, alot of faith in what I believe. But it strikes me at how much more faith all the Aetheists must have that two atoms, or protons or whatever they're calling them now collided and formed all of the stuff we have around us. Just look out your windows. Can you honestly tell yourself, "two itty-bitty little molecules made that"?? But it all comes down to what you want to believe in - That God loves us, made us, and wants to take us to heaven - or that sludge turned into people. That, I'm happy to say, erases all doubt in my mind. ************************************************** Theta, All the evidence I need is in the world around me, as I've said, there is no way that I can believe all of this came into being because of two little bits of matter buzzing around. If the Big-Bang did 'happen' it happened the instant God decided to create the Universe and everything in it, that is the only explanation I can come up with. As for rocks that have been dated to be x million years old and such. Do you think that when God created the earth, he created a bunch of brand-spankin' new everything? Were all the birds little chicks, fresh out of their eggs? All the trees in the Garden little seeds sitting in the ground? The God I serve is a limitless God, do you think, if he wanted to, He could make an eighty year old tree just by thinking it? Or a giant rock that is 10, 000 years old in an instant? This is how I explain fossils and such. If we are created in the likeness if God, then I seriously doubt He is without his own sense of humor. Maybe he planted them there to confuse us, mess with out weak human minds? I honestly don't have all the answers, no one does. But thats the best I can do for the moment. Eltiraaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 I'm afraid I think that that's even more far-fetched than my preferred explanation that the universe came into existence spontaneously out of nothing. I also think that by ascribing human traits such as humour to a deity you are diminishing that deity - in effect, you are creating god in your image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltiraaz Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 :angry: I just finished saying that God created us in His image, would that not validate the claim of him having feelings? Which I already knew because He did die for me in one of his manifestations, automatically granting him the emotion of love. (please no questions on the validility of the death of Jesus) :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranquility Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Ok, sorry to barge in :D. As to the origin of the universe, I can't really tell what explanation better suits me. What I do find difficult is not to trust the cientifical explanation (the big bang thingy) since science clearly explains other phenomena in our daily lives perfectly instead of the doctrine of some religion. I once read a book that said that some people, like some natives in Micronesia or something believed that the world was a load of turtles standing on top of each other. I look at that explanation, and laugh, because I know better... And yet I can't shake the feeling that they could be right. But they are most likely not. It's all a matter of simplicity; when various explanations for a situation or a phenomena are available, the most simple explanation is probably the correct one; which doesn't mean one should not consider them all. I say probably not base in statistical data, but in terms of simplicity. If the Big-Bang did 'happen' it happened the instant God decided to create the Universe and everything in it, that is the only explanation I can come up with. As for rocks that have been dated to be x million years old and such. Do you think that when God created the earth, he created a bunch of brand-spankin' new everything? Were all the birds little chicks, fresh out of their eggs? All the trees in the Garden little seeds sitting in the ground? The God I serve is a limitless God, do you think, if he wanted to, He could make an eighty year old tree just by thinking it? Or a giant rock that is 10, 000 years old in an instant? This is how I explain fossils and such. If we are created in the likeness if God, then I seriously doubt He is without his own sense of humor. Maybe he planted them there to confuse us, mess with out weak human minds? I honestly don't have all the answers, no one does. But thats the best I can do for the moment. Now Eltiraaz do you agree with that people's explanation of the universe?? If not, why?? By the way, what do you mean god created old rocks? If he created them then, then they're new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaten by an Ugly Stick Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 To say Jesus died is one thing, to say that he is proof of god is wholly another. Also if we are created in the image of god, and have the same appearance and the same feelings, wouldn't that also mean we are given the same limitations? And the same power? Either way it doesn't matter. God's existanc can Neither be proven or disproven so it is a waste to try either, Indeed people have wasted their lives trying to prove such unprovables. What you believe in God or not is merely a matter of opinion. Evolution and the Big Bang are fact . Meaning they can be proven and disproven by evidence. As of now there is no evidence that disproves either Evolution or the Big Bang and is, by definition true. :o I apologize if I offend but I felt the topic had strayed too far from its origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 I think one of the problems is that our curent scientific knowledge cannot extrapolate beyond the Big Bang - although we can explain what happened fractions of a second after the Big Bang we have no way of knowing what happened just fractions of a second before. And this leaves room for everyone's own speculation, and in the absence of proof we have to accept each one as valid. Perhaps a giant turtle sneezed, and that is how the Big Bang happened Perhaps some omnipotent deity snapped its fingers Perhaps the Big Bang simply happened, because it happened - something out of nothing (my preferred explanation :lol:) Perhaps another universe collapsed in on itself Perhaps two multi-dimensional n-branes intersected As yet we cannot prove or disprove any of these. But neither should anyone dismiss the scientific knowledge we have because it does not fit in with their world view. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to stop those giant turtles from falling off the edge of the world :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maquissar Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Theta is right - we can only take wild guesses. The truth is, we are currently uncapable - as we probably will always be - to determine how the universe was originated and how man came to life.I personally tend to believe to science rather than religion, but there is still so much that we don't know... I personally do not believe that we are offspring of Adam and Eve, and I rather believe Darwin's evolution theory... and yet all I can do is make hypotheses. However, giant turtles would be cool :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Good points made by both sides. My questions are- If god does exist, who made him? How did he come to be? Please don't flame me for not believing the same as you, or comment about how "I'm going to hell" because frankly, I don't care. I'm interested in your thoughts, not your beliefs. The same question can be applied to the "big bang" theory. How did it come to be(I know some posts touched on this...)? My personal thoughts? Something happened. :P Evolution is not a theory, it is fact. Things evolve. Whether we evolved from apes or not is not the point in this statement. A short, and true story...An aethiest and a hardcore Christian sit atop a mountain in Alaska (my original home). I know both of these people, one is/was my best friend. They sit atop the mountain, watching the sunset. She turns to him and says "I can't believe people still believe in evolution". What an uncanny moment for both parties. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamastor Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 i did not mean for this thread to become a religion vs. science but it now is so ill add my thoughts. i have several points to make. first of all to all the fanatic cristians: i do not wish to insult your beliefs but you are saying that your unprovable faith is true over hundreds of other unprovable faiths. muslims also tak about jesus crist but as a profet rather than the child of god. does crist's life then prove the muslim faith too? and what about hindu's, budists, and the hundreds of other religions that i do not know the name of. are you so arogant to say that they are all wrong just becouse you are right? next to all the fanatic scientist: it is a 'fact' that there are, what is known as, quantum fluxuations. i know it sounds teribly corny but let me explain. it is possible that out of 'empty' space a particle and its anti-particle can just show up out of nothing, only to exist for a fraction of a second and then re-unite destroying each other and creating the energy required to creat them in the first place. a whole zoo full of mater can apear and disapear while the 'universe isnt looking' these are the actual scientific words for it... now the universe we inhabit could just be the same thing on a larger level, the 'big bang' could be it all showing up and the 'big crunch' is it all going away. this is ofcourse just my speculation. now to everybody: nothing can be held as 'true' becouse eventually evidence might show up to prove something else. i know how happy everyone is about evolution and the big bang but for a time we thought only in newtonian physics and that anything outside that would be impossible, now we know better. i suggest that the best course of action is to accept certain things as more or less probable to be true depending on what we think we know. i will listen to every last crakpot if he can prove his theory. now what i think: science and religion can co-exist. and better even, religion can co-exist with other religion. all it takes is lateral thinking. what is writen in our bible in now what was writen in the biblw a milenea ago. nor is what we see in the koran the same as what was in the kora back then. every new edtion will represent what the writer interpreted the pervious version to be. by only reading the intention and not the words we come closer to the thruth. i dont believe in your cristian god but in a mind if you will, that at one point did something and might even be able to turn some odds around. if anyone wants i can outline my whole belief system up to this point but by tomoorow it might change again if i learn something new. none of this means i dont belive in science. science is the search how everything works and ho to aply it all. we are on a right track but not the only one. now im afraid i have to cut myself short becouse i have things to do but ill be back with ever longer posts :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Well, some theories state that the concept of time originated with the Big Bang, and that therefore to refer to a 'before' is meaningless. I have never felt comfortable with that explanation - seemed like a bit of a cop-out to me. My theory of how the Big Bang happened is based on quantum theory, and probabilites. The more you narrow down a volume of space, the more important quantum effects become - on subatomic scales, quantum foam effects distort the fabric of spacetime. The more you narrow down a volume of space the less exactly can you determine the properties of that volume of space. The scale at which the Big Bang happened was the smallest possible - 'infinitely' small, so to speak. And before the Big Bang there was no universe, so the probability of anything existing was 0. With the probability of anything existing narrowed down to 0, and the volume of space narrowed down to near 0 quantum effects would have to be very pronounced. I think that the Big Bang was an expression of or analogous to these quantum phenomena - on this minute scale the probability of the universe existing could not remain 0. And when it became non-zero, there was a probability that a universe would burst into existence. And at some point, it did. Spontaneously. Something from nothing. I like this theory because it does not ascribe a higher purpose to the universe. It just is, because it is. I also believe that our universe is not the only one there is, but it is the only one which exists for us. Before our universe began it could have taken any form or shape possible - but when it took shape, the other probabilities ceased to exist for it in this universe. However, outside this universe I would expect that every possible universe exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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