Blair's Education "reform" Bill

[loveme4whoiam]

I apologise if I've put this in the wrong place, but this is a topic mos certainly worthy of debate.

 

The people in Blair's government (who I am now convinced are certifiably insane) wish to make it possible for schools to become "trust schools".

 

Essentially, any group with the money to build and run a school can do so. This means that any religious group, company, group of parents, anyone can set up their own school. And the worse part of it is, there will be no restrictions or guidelines for what will be taught!

 

This means that creationism can be taught as fact, that in an educational institution it could be taught that black people are evil. This is the most horrific attack on education itself, and Blair is calling it a reform! >:(

 

Today the Bill was voted on by Parliament, and was passed with a 343 majority vote, proving that MPs really are utterly out of touch with what their constituents really want. The teachers unions are in an uproar, and sent out packages to every teacher in the country to try and oppose the Bill. Any student with half a brain who knows of the Bill is utterly against it, and yet it has still been passed. And what is worse, it'll sail through the House of Lords and become law.

 

The media is focusing on the political ramifications of the Labour revolt which saw the Bill relying on Tory support to pass, but the real importance is the destruction this will do to the education system. Imagine it: religious schools that only accept members of their religion (and this is allowed in the Bill) - you think the religious problems this country has are bad now? Wait until the educational institutions are churning out brain-washed kids with such beliefs.

 

Teachers are against it. Students are against it. Are you against it? If you wish to in any way oppose this then please get in touch with me - [email protected].

[Dark0ne]

Where are you getting all this information from? I'm looking at the bill information on the BBC website and it doesn't seem to suggest half of what you are saying.

[loveme4whoiam]

Indeed - I only discovered it after looking through the actual Bill itself, along with (thank God) an explanatory "note". With regards to the lack of national curriculum, it only mentions a curriculum coming into play at Key Stage 4. Before that age, there is no mention anywhere in the document (at least, in the Curriculum section that I've read - this is a 271 page document!) of a national curriculum being in effect. It talks alot about "entitlement" to certain things, which is fair enough, but it doesn't specifically mention these subjects having to be taught, or with any kind of objectivity or impartiality.

 

Here's the Explanatory Note to the Bill :Education and Inspections Bill. The relevant section with regards to the curriculum are number 61 and 62. The Bill itself can be found on the BBC website in PDF format, but its just that site but without explanations.

[Peregrine]

Well, on the good side, these morons will darwin themselves out of the gene pool quite nicely. Any college with a little common sense is going to laugh at these "schools" and reject the application unread. So anyone going to them is going to be stuck with whatever low-paying worthless job nobody wants, and doomed to failure in life. Meanwhile any sane parents will send their parents to a good school.

[Stampede]

Essentially, any group with the money to build and run a school can do so. This means that any religious group, company, group of parents, anyone can set up their own school. And the worse part of it is, there will be no restrictions or guidelines for what will be taught!

 

This means that creationism can be taught as fact, that in an educational institution it could be taught that black people are evil. This is the most horrific attack on education itself, and Blair is calling it a reform! >:(

 

 

So what? Private schools which base their principles upon religion have been in existence for as long as I can remember. Why do you feel so threatened by this? Creationism is taught as a fact in religious homes and the church anyway.

 

EDIT: I reread your post, I see now you meant that schools could base their teachings upon racial prejudice. If that is so, then all the better for the rest of us, no higher learning facility in their right mind look favourably upon any institution which endorsed such teachings. Based upon any racial or religious prejudice.

 

At the end of the day, if you don't like it. Don't send your kids there. A horrific attack on education would be forcing kids to have math lessons in latin, not giving people the ability to form their own schools for whatever individuals that have the same belief system. I believe it's about as threatening as a fart in the wind. ;)

 

As it is, this thread is extremely borderline in terms of what is and is not allowed here. I will be monitoring it closely.

[Peregrine]

So what? Private schools which base their principles upon religion have been in existence for as long as I can remember. Why do you feel so threatened by this? Creationism is taught as a fact in religious homes and the church anyway

 

That's not the point. Schools are expected to be held to minimum standards, to ensure that everyone gets an adequate educatin to succeed in life. Standards like teaching facts, not whatever random ideas they feel like making up. And like it or not, evolution is scientific fact. Creationism is religious myth. Creationism has no place in science classes where these "schools" will want to put it. Not only is it dishonest, but teaching it as fact does severe damage to those students chances in anything related to biology later in life. If they want to get into university biology classes (to be a doctor, for example), it'll take more time and money to take basic elementary-school science classes to correct the poor teaching and bring them up to acceptable standards.

 

EDIT: I reread your post, I see now you meant that schools could base their teachings upon racial prejudice. If that is so, then all the better for the rest of us, no higher learning facility in their right mind look favourably upon any institution which endorsed such teachings. Based upon any racial or religious prejudice.

 

No, that's not at all better for the rest of us. There is no excuse for allowing racial prejudice to spread. You're giving approval to create hordes of ignorant bigots with no useful skills in life. So not only will they spread the hate, but they'll be a burden on society in the process. Besides, the people who would want those "schools" are usually complete morons anyway, who don't care about education at all. So they'd be perfectly happy to trade college future for freedom to spread their hate.

 

At the end of the day, if you don't like it. Don't send your kids there.

 

And I suppose it's fair to the kids, to send them to inferior schools because of your personal beliefs? To doom them to a minimum wage job because their education wasn't good enough to get them into college, or even a high school diploma worth more than the paper it's printed on?

 

A horrific attack on education would be forcing kids to have math lessons in latin, not giving people the ability to form their own schools for whatever individuals that have the same belief system. I believe it's about as threatening as a fart in the wind. wink.gif

 

I guess you don't understand the consequences of a decline in education standards. Go ahead, send all the kids to religious schools where they don't have to learn about evolution. Then watch as your country stops producing qualified doctors, and has to beg for immigrants while your own citizens go serve those immigrants at the local burger place. And watch as all that biology research and the massive economy boosts it can bring goes out of the country to somewhere that still produces skilled workers.

 

And please, set a precedent for these pitiful standards. I beg you, set a precedent that lets someone establish schools that teach kids how to feel better and understand their emotional needs instead of math and science. I'm busy getting my degree in aerospace engineering (with a likely double major in mechanical). I would love to have an obscene salary in your country, because you desperately need me to keep your factories running.

[Stampede]

That's not the point. Schools are expected to be held to minimum standards, to ensure that everyone gets an adequate educatin to succeed in life. Standards like teaching facts, not whatever random ideas they feel like making up. And like it or not, evolution is scientific fact. Creationism is religious myth. Creationism has no place in science classes where these "schools" will want to put it. Not only is it dishonest, but teaching it as fact does severe damage to those students chances in anything related to biology later in life. If they want to get into university biology classes (to be a doctor, for example), it'll take more time and money to take basic elementary-school science classes to correct the poor teaching and bring them up to acceptable standards.

 

I would debate that evolution is not a scientific fact, but that is an entire new discussion in itself. As far as your argument goes regarding biology, surely you cannot be so naive as to be believe there no recognised biologists in the world who are also spiritual?

 

and as far as perceiving black people as evil from creationism, please explain how you reach this conclusion?

 

I know, I misread that. My bad. ;)

 

 

At the end of the day, if you don't like it. Don't send your kids there.

 

I suppose it was fair on the kids here during apartheid who were forced to attend schools closed to children of colour because their parents could not afford or did not care to send them to private open schools? Fortunately mine did. But that is the downfall of being a child under the protection and control of a legal guardian. Of course it's not fair but it's nothing new. I attended a catholic school at one stage (and I'm catholic! Because it was open to all races, we had muslim kids there who were forced to attend mass (did not have to kneel) because the standard of non-white schools were so shoddy. So falling victim to the whims and desires of parents will be a burden that kids have and more than likely will forever carry. )

 

A horrific attack on education would be forcing kids to have math lessons in latin, not giving people the ability to form their own schools for whatever individuals that have the same belief system. I believe it's about as threatening as a fart in the wind. wink.gif

 

As it is education in my country is on a severe decline, however it has nothing to do with religion. Standards are being lowered to accomodate individuals who were at a disadvantage in the old regime. I kid you not!

 

Do not assume to pass judgements about what I do and do not understand either Peregrine, I find those sort of comments beneath you and irrelevant to this debate. A differing opinion cannot always be interpreted as a lack of understanding. I could easily say that is is YOU the white american attending a good school and attaining an excellent qualification who has no idea about how South Africa works and would merely become another statistic and hated for the sins of your fathers.

 

No, that's not at all better for the rest of us. There is no excuse for allowing racial prejudice to spread. You're giving approval to create hordes of ignorant bigots with no useful skills in life. So not only will they spread the hate, but they'll be a burden on society in the process. Besides, the people who would want those "schools" are usually complete morons anyway, who don't care about education at all. So they'd be perfectly happy to trade college future for freedom to spread their hate.

 

Funny, you seemed to feel less threatened by them when you said this:

 

Well, on the good side, these morons will darwin themselves out of the gene pool quite nicely. Any college with a little common sense is going to laugh at these "schools" and reject the application unread. So anyone going to them is going to be stuck with whatever low-paying worthless job nobody wants, and doomed to failure in life. Meanwhile any sane parents will send their parents to a good school.

 

Surely you cannot feel so threatened by a minority of people that you dismiss constantly as morons and bigots?

[Peregrine]

I would debate that evolution is not a scientific fact, but that is an entire new discussion in itself.

 

You would debate it and you would fail. Evolution is both fact and theory. It is fact that evolution happens, it has been observed on small time scales through expirements, and on larger scales through the fossil record. The Theory of Evolution is the accepted theory for why and how it happens. This is not a question up for debate, acceptance of evolution in the scientific community is unanimous. There are zero legitimate peer-reviewed theories that do not include evolution. Like it or not, it's fact.

 

There is absolutely no support for disproving evolution unless you go outside of science (and therefore are no longer debating scientific fact). Therefore it is the only acceptable theory to teach in science class. Especially since it is one of the fundamental concepts of biology, and critical if you want to do any higher-level work in the field.

As far as your argument goes regarding biology, surely you cannot be so naive as to be believe there no recognised biologists in the world who are also spiritual?

 

Of course not. What those biologists believe in their private life is their own business. But there are no recognized biologists (excluding the products of creationist diploma mills) who refuse to accept evolution in their scientific work.

 

Also, "spiritual" is not a contradiction with evolution. There are plenty of spiritual belief systems that can work with it just fine. And that even includes some forms of Christianity, one of my friends is a devout Christian who has no problem accepting evolution.

 

As it is education in my country is on a severe decline, however it has nothing to do with religion. Standards are being lowered to accomodate individuals who were at a disadvantage in the old regime. I kid you not!

 

I'm not arguing that. In fact, I agree entirely... the fight over evolution in schools is just one symptom of a serious problem in our educational standards. This is why I don't find any of this even slightly amusing, we need reforms and we need them badly, not a removal of the few standards we still have.

 

Do not assume to pass judgements about what I do and do not understand either Peregrine, I find those sort of comments beneath you and irrelevant to this debate. A differing opinion cannot always be interpreted as a lack of understanding. I could easily say that is is YOU the white american attending a good school and attaining an excellent qualification who has no idea about how South Africa works and would merely become another statistic and hated for the sins of your fathers.

 

All I need to know is in your post. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are a LOT of people who would happily send their children to these poor-quality schools. Whether because of religion, because they don't care about education, whatever. Just by making them available, you're causing harm to society. Granted, my comments took the idea to the extreme, but there are very real consequences for letting education standards decline.

[Stampede]

You would debate it and you would fail. Evolution is both fact and theory. It is fact that evolution happens, it has been observed on small time scales through expirements, and on larger scales through the fossil record. The Theory of Evolution is the accepted theory for why and how it happens. This is not a question up for debate, acceptance of evolution in the scientific community is unanimous. There are zero legitimate peer-reviewed theories that do not include evolution. Like it or not, it's fact.

 

There is absolutely no support for disproving evolution unless you go outside of science (and therefore are no longer debating scientific fact). Therefore it is the only acceptable theory to teach in science class. Especially since it is one of the fundamental concepts of biology, and critical if you want to do any higher-level work in the field.

 

Correction. I would not fail and neither would you, unless you count failure in a debate as both parties refusing to give ground. The so called facts you fall back on still leave much to speculation and ridicule as does creationism. I refuse to start this argument on these forums, you may have the last word, as is your way ;) but it will not be discussed here.

 

 

Of course not. What those biologists believe in their private life is their own business. But there are no recognized biologists (excluding the products of creationist diploma mills) who refuse to accept evolution in their scientific work.

 

Also, "spiritual" is not a contradiction with evolution. There are plenty of spiritual belief systems that can work with it just fine. And that even includes some forms of Christianity, one of my friends is a devout Christian who has no problem accepting evolution.

 

Fair enough, I will give you that. But do you feel their religious upbringing has not hampered them purely because they have found a way to work alongside evolution? I am genuinely curious.

 

I'm not arguing that. In fact, I agree entirely... the fight over evolution in schools is just one symptom of a serious problem in our educational standards. This is why I don't find any of this even slightly amusing, we need reforms and we need them badly, not a removal of the few standards we still have.

 

I agree with you 100% education standards should constantly be raised. The dumbing down of education is sickening. If this bill were to be passed, then surely some sort of standard would have to be maintained when it came to basic education? Even home schooled children here get examined on a government level (for what it's worth I suppose.) If not then it would really mean complete anarchy, I cannot believe a great country such as England with some of the oldest and finest higher education facilities in the world would allow their youth to get lost in a tide of 'anything goes' education. The international outcry alone would be enough to warrant it as child abuse and negligence.

 

 

 

All I need to know is in your post. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are a LOT of people who would happily send their children to these poor-quality schools. Whether because of religion, because they don't care about education, whatever. Just by making them available, you're causing harm to society. Granted, my comments took the idea to the extreme, but there are very real consequences for letting education standards decline.

 

Correct in both counts. You are painting a worst case scenario on the scale of a doomsday prophecy ;) but if education standards were to fail completely then we could very well find ourselves scavenging in a doomed world. I just do not want the argument to become clouded over by the mention of religion and creationism, that is not the true threat. Just an easy target.

[Stampede]

Sincerest apologies everyone! In my haste to keep this good debate flowing I accidently edited one of Peregrines posts and botched it completely! (After he informed me of a typo I made) it was not done out of spite I assure you. :P I have pm'd him and told him of my mistake.

 

Perhaps I am an unwitting victim to lower education standards? Nevertheless you have my sincerest apologies and thanks for your patience. I hereby resolve not to work on a quotation for pressure monitoring systems on industrial water pipes and attempt to post in the debate at the same time again.