Rebuilding the Fallout world

[gsmanners]

I'll grant you the steel argument, but no way are you shooting down Christianity. If you don't have a mental foundation, you have nothing except superstition and dogma. Good luck developing technology when everyone insists that war must go on for one reason or another (invariably because of politics).

[roquefort]

"An example, you need more components than just steel to make ammunition. You need factories making the explosive charges that propel the bullet and the raw material to make these chemicals. You also need workers and all the systems needed to support them in the long run."

 

You also need an immense amount of knowledge and technical expertise; chemistry & physics, metallurgy, structural engineering and so on. There's a whole lot of theoretical, practical and scientific know-how, in the form of libraries and educated minds, that would have been lost in the intervening years. Who would know how to build, commission and safely run a power generating plant, for example, with steam turbines? Or if you're considering C19th technology, even gas generation, storage and distribution? Then there's the matter of finance to pay for all this.

 

I have a feeling that without the accumulated stored knowledge we take for granted now, we'd be back to wind/water mills and human and animal muscle for most everything, once the stuff lying around was all used up.

[apaosha]

I'll grant you the steel argument, but no way are you shooting down Christianity. If you don't have a mental foundation, you have nothing except superstition and dogma. Good luck developing technology when everyone insists that war must go on for one reason or another (invariably because of politics).

 

I'll deal with this in sections ....

 

I'll grant you the steel argument, but no way are you shooting down Christianity. If you don't have a mental foundation, you have nothing except superstition and dogma.

 

My point was that Christianity would provide only superstition and dogma in an environment where rational thinking is not only required - it is a necessity.

 

For example, one could go speak to Father Clifford and ask him to pray to God that some Purified Water would come your way ..... or you could educate yourself in purifying water and provide your own.

 

This is the pattern that would emerge, and always has emerged in these instances. A deity is expected to intercede and invariably does not.

 

Consider that God helps those who help themselves ....

 

Which is another way of saying ......?

 

Good luck developing technology when everyone insists that war must go on for one reason or another

 

War has provided the impetus for the development of much technology. WW2 in particular.

 

Particularly relevant is the invention of nuclear weapons ....

 

When there is danger, there is necessity. When there is peace, there is no necessity. Such necessity breeds innovation and adaptation.

In peacetime a general lassittude descends upon the populace and the culture stagnates. You can see this today.

 

Fear and anger and hatred have done more to improve the human condition than any amount of humanitarianism.

 

Chaos, sometimes, is a requirement.

 

Because Peace is far, far too comfortable.

 

(invariably because of politics)

 

Religion is immune to politics?

 

Why then is there separation (supposedly) between Church and State?

 

Are not the Church and State merely 2 iterations of the same phenomena? An institution that on the one hand dominates a mans pocket and on the other dominates his soul?

 

They are both believed to be the absolute authority within their own little domains, right? There is the Law and there is the Creed - do they do very different things, in effect?

 

How many religious wars have been started?

How many of those wars were waged in the name of God - for politics?

 

All, perhaps? Or were the leaders in these wars purely concerned with forcibly converting the infidel ..... and not with accruing political power through territorial domination?

 

Consider the territorial demarcations between Christian, Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist and so on. It's remarkably similar to political terrtories, isn't it?

[ITOS]

You also need an immense amount of knowledge and technical expertise; chemistry & physics, metallurgy, structural engineering and so on. There's a whole lot of theoretical, practical and scientific know-how, in the form of libraries and educated minds, that would have been lost in the intervening years. Who would know how to build, commission and safely run a power generating plant, for example, with steam turbines? Or if you're considering C19th technology, even gas generation, storage and distribution?

The loss of knowledge is, for me, one of the greatest losses in an apocalypse. But I believe all the knowledge needed is not lost in Fallout. Not yet, at least.

 

There are quite a few people in the capital wasteland alone that has knowledge that can rival today's academics in their field, Pinkerton for one. I also assume that both the Brotherhood and the Enclave has secured a vast amount of information in the form of books and databases. These might be hard to get access to, however.

 

My point, however, was that the use of steel would allow for more sophisticated, widespread incidences of these technologies.

Indeed. However, as I think is evident from the discussion, the steel mill is a very small part of the complex system required for more sophisticated production. While the mill is a crucial part in that system, I would not rank the mill alone higher than the other three alternatives.

[roquefort]

"Indeed. However, as I think is evident from the discussion, the steel mill is a very small part of the complex system required for more sophisticated production. While the mill is a crucial part in that system, I would not rank the mill alone higher than the other three alternatives."

 

Actually, the inhabitants of Cyrodiil (Oblivion) are ahead of the game, at least as far as mods are concerned. There's a working, waterwheel-driven hammer-mill in one of the mods (I forget which) that could be used for working iron or steel. It's right next to a mine (worked by skeleton miners), from where I guess the ore comes. ;)

[Burbinator]

As for religion: in general, it would serve a useful purpose in unifying people of the wasteland and to give people hope (morale is not to be underestimiated). Besides, the principles of unity, love, sharing etc could be deemed very necessary indeed; with such scant resources, humanity has to cooperate to survive and rebuild.

 

Fear and anger and hatred have done more to improve the human condition than any amount of humanitarianism.

 

and done more to worsen it. if I had to pick between the stimulation of fear/anger/hatred etc and humanitarianism, it's not really a tough choice. It's not as if innovation is impossible without it.

 

War has provided the impetus for the development of much technology.

 

okay, but war is inherently unproductive. The threat of war is just as useful, it seems; though there hasn't been a worldconflict sense, you can't claim that science's progress has been slow at all. Besides, technological innovation isn't really is needed at the time. Rebuild from what you know first, then go ahead and invent new stuff. I don't think that the human race, at least in this part, could really survive another war, however minor. It's already very sketchy how these cities and communities are supplying themselves... anyone see any farms around the Citadel? Anyone see productive farms ANYWHERE, for that matter? and how the heck do normal people survive radiation? the PC can avoid drinking/eating in vanilla fo3 by just using stims and beds, but normal people have to eat and drink every day. If I calculated it with the game mechanics, it's clear everyone should be near dying or turned ghoulish already.

[rebalious]

I don't thinks its a good idea to bring religion into this.

 

Project purity+Harold:

We need plant life and clean water as food and drink.

 

Marie+Steelworks

A cure for radiation isn't that urgent except in places like the Pitt and we can worry about building stuff after we get the fundamentals right.

[loopz]

Project Purity

Harold

Steel Mill

Marie

[babyeatingdingo]

yeah we certainly could do without the superstition and dogma of Christianity IRL, but it makes perfect sense for it to be a (or even THE) major religion in FO, seeing as the pre-war culture is based on 1950's/McCarthyism era, when Christianity was considered one of the major differences between "us" and "those godless commie bastards"

 

 

the older games had real world religions in them too didnt they? i thought i heard that there were Mormon settlements.

[babyeatingdingo]

"An example, you need more components than just steel to make ammunition. You need factories making the explosive charges that propel the bullet and the raw material to make these chemicals. You also need workers and all the systems needed to support them in the long run."

 

You also need an immense amount of knowledge and technical expertise; chemistry & physics, metallurgy, structural engineering and so on. There's a whole lot of theoretical, practical and scientific know-how, in the form of libraries and educated minds, that would have been lost in the intervening years. Who would know how to build, commission and safely run a power generating plant, for example, with steam turbines? Or if you're considering C19th technology, even gas generation, storage and distribution? Then there's the matter of finance to pay for all this.

 

I have a feeling that without the accumulated stored knowledge we take for granted now, we'd be back to wind/water mills and human and animal muscle for most everything, once the stuff lying around was all used up.

 

 

thats exactly the sort of thing that SHOULD be why the BOS is powerful. it SHOULD have been because ammo was really really rare, and the BOS should have been somewhat unique, in that they are known for searching for and protecting technology and had the capability to manufacture bullets inside the citadel (maybe even some quests related to getting them spare parts to fix their machinery, and being rewarded with the rare commodity of ammo, and you would have WANTED to join the Lion's Pride because that would mean steady access to bullets), whiereas the Super Mutants had to rely on improvised melee weapons (and ditto for most wastelanders, making Mutants a major threat)

 

 

imo that would have made the FO world a lot more fun, if ammo and working firearms were rare ala Mad Max, and most people had to rely on a combination of bow and arrows/ improvised weapons/ homemade bombs

 

("Another new comer... Holy poo, is that a pistol??? You came from the Vault, didn't you...")