Why do my edited DDS files double in size?

[syizm]

Hello,

 

I have noticed that when I'm creating a new texture file for armor or weapons using nVidia's DDS file utility in Photoshop the files double in size. What I mean is this; say I open an armor texture file, "outfitm.dds", and the original size is 683 kb. I edit it it how I want, and then save it. Although I have only changed the texture, the new file will be 1,366 kb.

 

 

My save settings are DXT5, ARGB, 8bpp, Interpolated alpha.

 

Mipmap settings are "Generate Mip Maps" with the drop down selected to "all".

 

 

I'm fairly certain that, perhaps, I'm generating too many mip maps and increasing the size of the file expotentially. However, I wasn't able to find anything searching online about the default *.dds file settings for Fallout 3.

 

 

Any information is appreciated.

 

 

r/

syizm

[syizm]

I believe I may have figured it out.

 

I had been saving the files as DXT5 - if I change it to DXT1 it will remain the original size.

 

 

Can anyone confirm if this will cause any problems?

[phoneyLogic]

it depends on the content of the texture

dds has different compression levels. e.g. 2bit, 4bit, 8 bit, with or without alpha channel or additional mip maps.

Its OK to use the same format as the vanilla texture

 

Yeah, dxt5 would be larger than dxt1. It would be a waste of space to use dxt5 in that case. Immagine: if you would have 1000 textures, you'd just blow the needed space on your hd as well as on your gfx card in game ;)

 

Fallout has round about 12000 textures. It's worth taking care of the textute sizes

[BadPenney]

In some cases DXT1 simply will not cut it. I haven't found generating Mip Maps necessary, so if you deselect it in other modes then you may save additional memory. You will want to retain alpha channel if you are working with any texture that has transparencies, as in many clothing or signage textures.

[phoneyLogic]

Imo it's best to use 1024x1024 textures (or even 512x512). Larger textures are not better looking but unfortunately they have much more file size.

 

@BadPenny

Hm, I always try to use the mip maps cause it's used to draw the LOD.

Depends on the distance which map is being shown. More distance -> smaler map. I think (not sure) it could look ugly if you don't use the mip maps in some cases. So I'd say if the vanilla texture has them, generate them for the edited texture as well.

 

But things like the interface and so on should not need any mip maps.

[BadPenney]

I rechecked my save settings for armor retex and I do have it set to generate Mip Maps. My mistake. I have my settings as DXT5, ARGB, 8 bpp | interpolated alpha. I always keep the resolutions the same as default FO3.

[Ghogiel]

tortured Tomato is making sense here. Badpenny- DXT1 and DXT5 are virutally identical in RGB. the only difference is the addition of a 8 alpha channel in the DXT5(which doubles the file size), if that is what you mean by DXT1 not cutting it, I agree, but if you think it makes any difference in the rgb values, no.

 

if you save a blank white alpha channel into a diffuse texture that doesn't have any need for it, ie using a single dds compression format for EVERY texture, you are making a rookie error. recomending that practice to others, is going to get a :down:

 

1- you are undoubtily wasting space. at any point where you have a alpha channel that is a single color, you are wasting space. use a compression without alpha. on many things, you can actually use the specular slider in the materialproperty to set a global spec level. unless you need a detailed spec map just do that,

 

2- On some hardware set ups you can get a texture error with a white alpha map in the diffuse, and no parallax shader or alpha enabled.

 

mipmaps- You do actually want them. if you save without ANY at all, and do a whole bunch as a replacer, you will see that the anything at a distance in game world sparkles...its noisey, grainy, sparkly. what is happening is that at that distance, all thhe pixels on all those 1024x1024 maps are being shown on screen. when the object takes up a couple centimeters of screen space, but its trying to jam about a million pixels worth of texture into that space, it looks weird indeed. never actually seen anyone do the tests with it in fallout. you can save with less mipmaps, like 4 for example, because its undocumentedhow fallout will behave, test the crap out of it, and document your research so we can all benefit. i'd personally like to know more...

 

in oblivion you also had to disable the nif from using mipmaps, I hadn't come across a vanilla asset with it off. If it was on and the texture had no mipmaps, iirc the texture would black out at any distance of about 5 feet in game.

 

in fallout, I do not think anyone has done those experiments to know. the use of the nitexturingproperty has changed, and its mainly replaced with the BSShaderPPLightingproperty. which doesn't seem to want to know about mipmaps...

 

compressions-

Diffuse maps- these can usually be compressed without a whole lot of artifacting maddness. use DXT1 if the texture doesn't contain a parallax or alpha map. DXT5 if it does.

Normal maps- these suffer enormously from compression artifacting. Be very careful. there is nothing worse than spending hours and hours, sculpting away, rendering out normal maps, compositing, then at the last turn destroy them with compression. If the texture uses a specular map, save as 8888ARGB at half res, or DXT5 if its not so important or the compress artifacts arn't so bothersome, if its quite flat this will be fine. if you decide no spec map is needed use 888 or DXT1.

all other textures can safely be saved as DXT1.

[BadPenney]

Badpenny- DXT1 and DXT5 are virutally identical in RGB. the only difference is the addition of a 8 alpha channel in the DXT5(which doubles the file size), if that is what you mean by DXT1 not cutting it, I agree, but if you think it makes any difference in the rgb values, no.

I admit that I am a bit rusty, but I never said anything about RGB did I? I use DXT1 for Pipboy icons, but not much else. I have removed alpha channel altogether when modifying normal maps for clothing, as in when getting rid of the underlying 101 of a vault suit. For the most part I believe that dds files that I have retextured have the same filesize as the original, rather than ballooning to great size. I do like to have an alpha channel in a diffuse texture when retexturing armor that has transparent parts to show more female flesh, or on posters that have ragged edges. Is that wrong?

 

Sorry for the error in mip maps. I believe that I do not generate them for Pipboy icons, but in general they are needed. I think. If you are more knowledgeable by all means speak up and correct me if I am wrong. But is it necessary to assume that I said something then vilify me for your assumption? Welcome to disinformation. Actually, I can live with that.

 

There are those that are more knowledgeable than me about most every aspect of modding. I have taken to saying less and less (probably for the best), mostly speaking up when I see that someone has asked a question that has not already been answered a million times and yet has received little or no response. I also post less because people here can be quite feral at times.

 

As my "title" mentions, I am known for giving out misinformation. In fact, I believe that a great deal of the information presented in forums by posters is apochryphal (incomplete, misleading, or completely wrong) even by those who speak with great authority. Forewarned is forearmed. Or was that four armed?

[Ghogiel]

I admit that I am a bit rusty, but I never said anything about RGB did I? I use DXT1 for Pipboy icons, but not much else. I have removed alpha channel altogether when modifying normal maps for clothing, as in when getting rid of the underlying 101 of a vault suit. For the most part I believe that dds files that I have retextured have the same filesize as the original, rather than ballooning to great size. ?

So you didn't say anything about RGB, no. But you did say as a blanket statement that you use DXT5 for all you textures. :closedeyes: Which as I explained already is not best practice. There is no blanket compression format that is optimal for ALL textures.

 

Just edit out the "101" in the spec map. removing the spec map all together is fine, if you don't mind about the impact to visuals it has. the only bonus I can see from doing it that way is it cuts out some texture size, making your maps half the cost to vram. :shrug: Keeping the same file size as vanilla assets is not an issue, many mods target increasing texture resolutions and are quite popular. wasting vram by having blank alpha channels is the issue. Why is anyone doing that- give me a logical reason why you would choose to do so.

 

the vanilla icons generally have completely white rbg channels. the icon iteself is actually completely done in the alpha channel. the icons design itself has a value of 208rgb(a light grey) iirc, the rest is black, that makes the icon design semi transparent, and the background 100% transparent. In game the green tinge is all done by the UI. No mipmaps are used, they only get viewed at close up, so mips are not needed. if you want to use a different icon set up that is up to you.

 

I do like to have an alpha channel in a diffuse texture when retexturing armor that has transparent parts to show more female flesh, or on posters that have ragged edges. Is that wrong?

thats not wrong. you need an alpha map in that circumstance. there is no "I do like" about it.

Sorry for the error in mip maps. I believe that I do not generate them for Pipboy icons, but in general they are needed. I think. If you are more knowledgeable by all means speak up and correct me if I am wrong. But is it necessary to assume that I said something then vilify me for your assumption? Welcome to disinformation. Actually, I can live with that.

I'm probably doing the similar generally. I was reinforcing tomato. and squashing

There are those that are more knowledgeable than me about most every aspect of modding. I have taken to saying less and less (probably for the best), mostly speaking up when I see that someone has asked a question that has not already been answered a million times and yet has received little or no response. I also post less because people here can be quite feral at times.

fine.

As my "title" mentions, I am known for giving out misinformation. In fact, I believe that a great deal of the information presented in forums by posters is apochryphal (incomplete, misleading, or completely wrong) even by those who speak with great authority. Forewarned is forearmed. Or was that four armed?

Agreed.

 

In fact if you search through posts where I have contributed to in the past you will see clearly, that as I have actaully experimented first hand with the issues in those subjects, and worked out actually how x or y works, what I am actually saying about it changes. at first I haven't a clue whats going on, and no one knows the answers, so loads of speculations start. Eventually if solutions aren't worked out, at least I'll know exactly why and what is going on.

Similar thing happened the other day when on beth offical forums, I blatantly said something that wasn't true at all. And the stupid thing is, years ago, I had actually done the very thing I said was impossible. :whistling: How retarded is that!

 

well it, doesn't matter what I say about textures anyway, using correct dds compressions, etc, people never listen to anything I say about textures. as evidenced by all the damn dxt5 diffuse textures with blank white alpha channels :S

...Even though this is not at all one of those experimental discussions where no ones anything about it, because its never been worked out previously or what have you. This right here is all standard issue texturing format. And yet people still *ban me* it up.

[phoneyLogic]

Hm, frankly I don't belive that there is someone who knows every aspect of modding in all it's details. It's more like a progress of learning which never ends.

I guess that there are probably thousand things which I simply do not know. And even what I know, I've just learned by reading posts like these here ... and articles, trials and maybe 1000 fails ^^.

You got kudos btw, interesting topic, full of traps