Broken Borders

[grannywils]

Although I understand why Vagrant0 says "welcome to politics", I personally do not see this as a political issue in spite of the way it has become politicized in recent times.

 

My take on the "immigration crisis" and our "broken borders" as outlined by the OP is fairly well stated in his last 3 sentences but one: "The plain fact is that everyone worldwide wants a better qualitative standard of living but it is not our responsibility to provide that to people who do not respect the process of entry. Economic hardship in the country of origin is not grounds for asylum. Local sanctuary municipalities should be taken to Federal Court for exceeding their statutory authority".

 

Yes, we do need solutions and not another temporary fix; but I'm not even sure that we can fix it anymore. Without imposing hard and fast legislation preventing those entering the country illegally from garnering any benefit whatsoever, it will be nigh on impossible to prevent them from entering in my opinion. I do not believe that this type of legislation could be passed by any Congress at this point, Right, Left or In Between.

 

All this talk about a "Wall" is pure nonsense. We do not live in a vacuum; nor should we. We cannot lock out all the "bad guys". If you're curious about how well that would work, speak to the Homeland Security folks.

 

Where I will probably differ with many who have already posted is with respect to those who are already in this country living Productive, tax paying lives. I would be willing to allow these folks to apply for citizenship. I would also recommend allowing the children of these folks automatic citizenship. I would not expect children who have grown up in this country and gone through our school system and stayed out of the legal system (i.e. jail, etc.) to have to be deported because their parents came here illegally.

 

There is much to be said about the above, but that is my basic philosophy. and we are having a thunderstorm and I have to shut down my computer....

[Aurielius]

@grannywils

Would you mind explaining how an Illegal pays State or Federal Income Tax, considering that they do not have a Social Security number? Even my township requires an SS number to pay local rates. Secondly since their children have been educated on my school taxes for lets say the 12 standard years, who reimburses the township for their freeloading?

[Harbringe]

Its not true you need a SS number to pay into SS . Every illegal who leaves a paper trail of any kind has been issued a Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) by the IRS , they pay all the same taxes as any other American but are only eligible for emergency medical care and K - 12 education . All other programs are prohibited to them. (SS, Medicare , Food Stamps , etc , etc). The Center for Immigration Policy has put the number of illegals paying the full range of taxes at just over 75% with an est 50% of the remaining also paying the same taxes . The majority of the last 25% are those types of illegals who migrate around the country working in the seasonal trades .(mostly agriculture).

 

Here's an article from Business Insider , detailing how it is they actually do pay taxes. The number in 2010 was over 11 billion but is thought to be higher as some States are unwilling to make a full accounting of that type of information.

 

[post=http://www.businessinsider.com/how-illegal-immigrants-pay-taxes-2012-3][/post]

 

What really bothers me about this particular immigration story is that they are saying there are over 50,000 children (the vast majority unaccompanied) , ranging from ages 5 - 17 , one News report thought the average age was somewhere around 12 . Now they are saying these children are fleeing violence in their own countries or are being told they will be let into the US because they are children . Yet statistically speaking the US is a more violent country than the ones they are coming from and its never mentioned who it is that is telling them they will be let into the US. Besides this idea that a child is going to decide to walk hundreds of miles just to get into a country that they likely don't speak the language and have little understanding of , just doesn't pass the smell test . The only way I can see that happening is if someone was making it happen , like human traffickers.

 

So the real question I think people should be asking themselves is who in the US is willing to pay for children to be trafficked into the US and for what reason . Because human traffickers don't do that sort of thing for free , they do it to get paid.

[Vagrant0]

Although I understand why Vagrant0 says "welcome to politics", I personally do not see this as a political issue in spite of the way it has become politicized in recent times.

It is political, but not in the conventional sense. I mean it more that people who are in any position to enact change are well aware of the issue, know how it can be solved, but are intentionally dragging their feet on it because it does not help them politically. Such as:

 

1). Illegals and those who are related to illegals currently have a number of groups working for them in order to grant them rights or ease their path to citizenship. While illegals may not legally vote, voting fraud is about as easy as it is to get a credit card. Even if they cannot vote themselves, those within these groups are voters and have enough money to throw at hostile advertisements against anyone in an elected office. These groups already have their foothold. And that's not even counting various human rights groups.

 

2). As trying to enforce or build anything along the border would cost money, anyone supporting these policies can, and has been the subject of critical attacks against them for their spending when budgets are already tight. Even if that money is actually put towards useful means, in an election it stops mattering much and people just remember the soundbites and not the twisting of facts behind them.

 

3). As much of what allows illegals to make use of social services are also social services which legal citizens use, any threat to changing these results in friction, confusion, and outrage... since again, people don't stop to think about things actually are, but are just upset about things being different. This matter is made worse by the fact that radio stations in these countries actually go through explaining how to exploit US services, meanwhile American Citizens tend to be entirely clueless as to what sort of support is out there.

 

4). The labor base in the US is still reliant on cheap unskilled labor in many states. Subsequently, people owning these businesses have based their operating costs on wages well below the minimum just because there is an abundance of migrant labor. Even in non-farming jobs, employers have been hiring illegals or people of questionable citizenship over teenagers simply because those illegals work harder, are more reliable, and can work more hours with less pay. Changing this to require citizenship checks for all types of jobs, or banning cash transactions for payment would not only be very hard to enforce, but would also throw even compliant companies off due to adding additional steps to the hiring process. And even still, there will always be those jobs which are temporary labor or require a singular payment.

[grannywils]

Thank you, HARBRINGE, for responding to the question regarding the payment of taxes by illegals and for the link you provided. You have also brought up some interesting questions which have concerned me regarding who, how and why it is so easy for these children to be brought into this country and trafficked. I believe it is really a subject for a separate thread, as I don't believe it has anything to do with illegal immigration but rather another much more sinister topic.

 

AURIELIUS, in answer to the second half of your question regarding your school taxes, I'm not sure how many illegals are attending your local schools, but hopefully those who do are receiving quality educations. if they have not been among the above referenced tax payers, my only hope is that the quality education they have received will enable them to attain higher education and go on to productive working lives thereby paying back the community several times over.

 

VAGRENT0, thank you for getting back and breaking down so clearly just how this issue has become so politicized. I could not agree with you more. Politicians and Big Business have taken what amounts to an issue of mere geography and humanity and turned it into a sounding board for whatever suits them during their particular campaign. Whatever, hatred and fear can be engendered in order to win over votes will be used.

 

I stand by my original thread, stating that we do have a serious immigration issue which needs to be handled. However, I do not believe it needs to handled on the basis of political expediency; and I do believe that we need to somehow have serious hard and fast laws written and implemented and stringently followed.

[HeyYou]

We already have hard and fast laws, it just seem that our government chooses not to enforce them, and corporate america buys new ones, for the cheap labor they can get.

Edited July 11, 2014 by HeyYou

[Aurielius]

I am hardly surprised Granny that you stand by your principles, I would expect no less. Would you expect any less of me? I object to paying for their use of services social, educational and judicial. The payback you postulate is not local but theoretically generic. This is in essence a student loan give away, something we do not even give to are own citizens. When the school tax is due, the township isn't interested in eventual repayment they want their cash now.

 

Though expensive I think in the long run a formidable physical barrier will provide more deterrence than political posturing. The Israeli's wall dividing the East and West Bank might have to be the model to look after all. The cost of a permanent wall compared to the Billions that are flushed down the drain on these illegal surges might prove more economic sense in the long run. If we must spend money that we do not have to spare, which is being sapped from programs that are in dire need already, then lets spend it on C-130 fuel used in immediate repatriation.

[HeyYou]

I do believe one senator put forth that he could solve the current issues for less than 8 million dollars. Mostly to be spent on jet/bus fuel. Sure beats the snot out of 3.7 BILLION.

[MajKrAzAm]

Trespassers into western countries are presently incentivized only by the relative size of the carrots on offer. A few disciplinary sticks are necessary.

 

Invading our lands should not be an enjoyable exercise. A deported Johnny Sanchez needs to regale his chums in Guatemala with tales of the unpleasantness that await in Arizona. They need to be convinced that their disrespect to us will be met in kind.

 

We need to stop being the kindly old couple who says "Oh dear, did we invite you in? Well here's a soft bed and warm cookies for you and your friends until we can get this all sorted out." Our compassion goes unrequited. Our charity is exploited. We are either going to become serious about deportation or we will remain frivolous about dispossession.

[Vagrant0]

Honestly, for all the money we spend on the issue (as well as the war on drugs), we're possibly better off just annexing Mexico, building up their infrastructure to 1st world standards, implementing a puppet governing body, regulating their police force, and just building a wall on the southern Mexico border. From this, we can regulate and make use of Mexico's growing climate, have a larger claim on gulf oil, setup factories to process and produce goods instead of relying on China, and have a solid lower tier labor base for years to come.

 

But, this would make Hispanics the majority demographic, place a greater strain on services for lower income citizens, and piss off the UN, but it might give those other nations a reason to tighten their own emigration policies or discourage the practice.