Broken Borders

[Aurielius]

@Aurielius, I have thought and thought about how to respond to your above post and finally decided that the best thing for me to do is to remove myself from this thread. Thanks though for posting an interesting and thought provoking thread. I did enjoy it for awhile.

That is a shame, since countervailing opinions are the essence of a lively discussion. It is no secret that I hold conservative views and that you do not. I have zero problem with reading and responding to your views since I know they are honestly held convictions as are my own.

[grannywils]

@Aurielius, ok since I so strongly agree with your above post #31 I have decided to withdraw my decision to remove myself from your thread. This is partially true since a very dear friend of mine has erroneously implied to me in private that I am "chicken". Since I am not "chicken" and am always willing to engage in a good debate, I have returned.

 

It would please me however to know just how your post #29 expressed your countervailing opinion to anything that I or any previous debater had said. For some reason it just sounded to me as though it was meant as a jibe of some sort, and my immediate reaction was to want to respond in kind. Since I did not want to lower this very good and well thought out topic to that level I chose to bow out. If I am incorrect about your intentions, I sincerely apologize.

 

If you truly believe that the government should play no role in supporting any of its people in any way shape or form including providing basic education to its citizens, I guess we may be farther apart in our political views than I suspected. In addition, I'm not even sure that I got the point with respect to the American Indians. So, before I respond to what I think it meant, may I ask you to explain the meaning? P.S. And, yes, I know it was a quote from Henry Ford, but I want to know what you had in mind by using it as your post.

[Vagrant0]

" Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him should take a closer look at the American Indian"- Henry Ford

I'll respond to it instead...

 

Let's be very clear on the matter... Government services should never be something that people can be happy and prosper from. They are instead there as a means of establishing those very basic things needed by citizens who do not personally have the ability or resources available to survive or prosper on their own. The need of these services is so that there is a legal way to live, as opposed to resorting to "take what you want" mentality or just writing this group off as dead. As this group, by nature of the hierarchy of labor, tends to be the largest portion of the population, and subsequently has a significant portion of the votes, or at the very least, highest risk of mobbing. It is a basic set of allotments that taxes pay for and which those who founded the US stood by. But, it should not mean an easy way of life or pleasurable way of life as this would, and has, led people to become lazy, reliant on government services, or just misinformed as to why taxes or social services are even needed.

 

Unfortunately, these same basic quality of life allotments are also those things that illegal immigrants are wanting to receive. However, while removing these basic services would remove some of the appeal of entering the country illegally, it would not solve for many of the other reasons people cross the border. Removing these services would also probably increase crime amongst other citizens as people become desperate to feed and clothe their families. While people turning to robbery or murder might technically fit within your idea of self-actualization, I think we can agree that on a larger scale this would leave most worse off than just paying taxes, jokes aside.

[Aurielius]

@Aurielius, ok since I so strongly agree with your above post #31 I have decided to withdraw my decision to remove myself from your thread. This is partially true since a very dear friend of mine has erroneously implied to me in private that I am "chicken". Since I am not "chicken" and am always willing to engage in a good debate, I have returned.

 

It would please me however to know just how your post #29 expressed your countervailing opinion to anything that I or any previous debater had said. For some reason it just sounded to me as though it was meant as a jibe of some sort, and my immediate reaction was to want to respond in kind. Since I did not want to lower this very good and well thought out topic to that level I chose to bow out. If I am incorrect about your intentions, I sincerely apologize.

 

If you truly believe that the government should play no role in supporting any of its people in any way shape or form including providing basic education to its citizens, I guess we may be farther apart in our political views than I suspected. In addition, I'm not even sure that I got the point with respect to the American Indians. So, before I respond to what I think it meant, may I ask you to explain the meaning? P.S. And, yes, I know it was a quote from Henry Ford, but I want to know what you had in mind by using it as your post.

It's fairly simple. The government has never been good at administering the welfare of almost anyone. The war on poverty for example, there is a larger percentage of people that are below the poverty line than before Johnson's initiative back in the 60's. The Welfare State best client is the government agencies that administer them, it has fostered neither independence or upward mobility for those that it was ostensibly created for. This country was founded on the concept of self reliance, the freedom to explore the entrepreneurial avenues of capitalistic ventures and limited government. Big Brother government was not what the founding fathers had in mind, they did everything possible to limit the scope of government intentionally. The Social states of Europe are failed experiments as Greece, Portugal, Italy, France and unfortunately the UK demonstrate. I don't want the government to hold my hand, I want it to get out of my way. There is an old saying"There is no such thing as a free lunch", the price tag for government social day care is less freedom...or "he who pays the tab makes the rules". Congress is inept at administering almost everything and the Executive is prone to the tidal shifts of ideology. Henry Ford was right, the Indians who were the unwilling clients of the state neither prospered or had self respect until they took their fate into their own hands.

 

I think the essential argument is is there such a thing as sovereignty? Are we to allow anyone worldwide who does not care for the status in their home country free entry just because they crossed our border? If so be prepared for a drastic drop in your standard of living. There are a multitude of sad stories but it is not our responsibility to care for the poor of the world. Send them back..ASAP.

[grannywils]

Although you misunderstand me if you believe that I am suggesting that the government should be big brother and step in to solve all our problems, I do believe that government of the people, by the people and for the people does have a role to play in seeing to it that all of its citizens have a basic education in order to strike out into the labor market and become tax paying members of society. By the way, according to a 2012 report by the Council of Economic Advisers Poverty has declined by more than one third since 1967. The percent of the population in poverty when measured to include tax credits and other benefits has declined from 25.8% to 16.0 percent in 2012.

 

Once again, I never suggested that we should have an open door policy to immigration. I said in my first post and every once since that we needed to resolve our immigration problems with hard and fast laws and by making it extremely unattractive and unappealing for anyone to want to come hear illegally. But I also said in each of my posts that I do not believe that our government or those in power behind our government really want that to happen. I will try to say this now in plain English using small words. I believe that there are many in this country who profit by having illegal aliens enter this country. I believe that they may even help and encourage them to enter this country. I believe that they use these illegal aliens in various capacities once they arrive. In some cases they may use them as cheap labor in factories or on ranches and farms. In some cases they may be dispersed throughout the nation for work in homes as nannies or household workers. In other cases they may be trafficked as sex workers or drug and/or weapons mules.

 

This is of course a double edged sword for the poor in this country. It adds more poor, i.e. both the legitimate poor already living here, and now the new illegals. And secondly it takes away those few low paying jobs that may have been available to the poor already here. For some in power this might be exactly what they wanted all along. We have a much larger lower class, a disappearing middle class and a fat and happy upper class who is left to complain about all the problems they have with those lazy poor people who won't go to work.

 

Naturally, there is much more to that scenario, but my point is that I am NOT, I repeat, NOT proposing that we just let everyone in who is having a hard time at home, or that we just add more government programs to take care of everyone who needs a handout. Your last post seems to suggest that because I am Liberal I just want the government to fix it. What I think I am trying to say is that I recognize the same problem that you do, but that I do not see the immigrants or the poor as the problem. Nor do I think that they need to bear all the burden of the solution. What I think is that if they government wants to fix it they need to get off their rosy red butts and start to take it seriously. They need to stop being lead around by their noses by the big money in corporate America (or wherever) and start listening to the needs of their constituencies. And I am speaking of all of them, not just one side of the aisle or the other.

 

Hopefully I have been more clear this time.

[Aurielius]

Poverty in the US as a percentage of the population and total individuals has gone UP not down since 1970. At least according to the Census Bureau.

 

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/539/b5b47c.jpg

 

Well done big government.Throw money at the problem in increasing levels and achieve negative results.

 

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/912/e183be.jpg

 

It would have been more cost effective to have resurrected the Works Progress Administration, then at least there would have been a return on the investment....infrastructure improvements and maintenance.

[kvnchrist]

If the government was as good at implimenting the programs as they were in creating them they would do just fine. The problem is they hire bureaucrats to administer the program and many of these are more concerned with keeping themselves working than the program.

[HeyYou]

Although you misunderstand me if you believe that I am suggesting that the government should be big brother and step in to solve all our problems, I do believe that government of the people, by the people and for the people does have a role to play in seeing to it that all of its citizens have a basic education in order to strike out into the labor market and become tax paying members of society. By the way, according to a 2012 report by the Council of Economic Advisers Poverty has declined by more than one third since 1967. The percent of the population in poverty when measured to include tax credits and other benefits has declined from 25.8% to 16.0 percent in 2012.

 

Once again, I never suggested that we should have an open door policy to immigration. I said in my first post and every once since that we needed to resolve our immigration problems with hard and fast laws and by making it extremely unattractive and unappealing for anyone to want to come hear illegally. But I also said in each of my posts that I do not believe that our government or those in power behind our government really want that to happen. I will try to say this now in plain English using small words. I believe that there are many in this country who profit by having illegal aliens enter this country. I believe that they may even help and encourage them to enter this country. I believe that they use these illegal aliens in various capacities once they arrive. In some cases they may use them as cheap labor in factories or on ranches and farms. In some cases they may be dispersed throughout the nation for work in homes as nannies or household workers. In other cases they may be trafficked as sex workers or drug and/or weapons mules.

 

This is of course a double edged sword for the poor in this country. It adds more poor, i.e. both the legitimate poor already living here, and now the new illegals. And secondly it takes away those few low paying jobs that may have been available to the poor already here. For some in power this might be exactly what they wanted all along. We have a much larger lower class, a disappearing middle class and a fat and happy upper class who is left to complain about all the problems they have with those lazy poor people who won't go to work.

 

Naturally, there is much more to that scenario, but my point is that I am NOT, I repeat, NOT proposing that we just let everyone in who is having a hard time at home, or that we just add more government programs to take care of everyone who needs a handout. Your last post seems to suggest that because I am Liberal I just want the government to fix it. What I think I am trying to say is that I recognize the same problem that you do, but that I do not see the immigrants or the poor as the problem. Nor do I think that they need to bear all the burden of the solution. What I think is that if they government wants to fix it they need to get off their rosy red butts and start to take it seriously. They need to stop being lead around by their noses by the big money in corporate America (or wherever) and start listening to the needs of their constituencies. And I am speaking of all of them, not just one side of the aisle or the other.

 

Hopefully I have been more clear this time.

First problem I see with this is: The government isn't in the business of 'solving' problems. More like "exploiting" them.

 

Second problem I see is the belief that we still have "Government of the people, by the people, for the people." The supreme court destroyed that notion when they decided the corporations are people too, and there shouldn't be any limits on their "free speech". (I.E. campaign spending.)

 

Giving people a basic education, so that they might take advantage of opportunities to better themselves, also implies that there ARE opportunities out there. Of late, that does not seem to be the case. Not to mention that our education system has been slowly sliding down the list of 'best countries for an education'.....

 

The only thing government is good at, is spending money. Doesn't really seem to matter to them whether there is any return on the investment, just so long as it gives the appearance of 'doing something' about some problem or other.

[grannywils]

@HeyYou, although your points are well taken I do not see how either of us are truly addressing the issue at hand.

 

The borders are overflowing with people wishing to come to this country with a false belief that this is a land of opportunity for them. On this side of the border we have an overwhelming number of poor illegal immigrants who have already arrived with that same belief and found it to be untrue. Also on this side of the border we have an inordinate number of poorly educated, poorly housed, poorly fed and in a vast majority of cases unemployed poor American citizens who live here legally. In the meantime, we apparently do not have housing, medical services, proper educational facilities or jobs available for our own citizens, let alone the already resident illegal aliens.

 

Naturally the clamoring hordes at the border are causing quite an uproar from our outraged citizenry. Everyone wants something done about this invasion. Not only that, but everyone thinks all those illegals should be shipped out post haste!!

 

I just wonder how the government (who hasn't been able to get out of its own way and has not been able to properly administer any of its own programs to provide food, medicine, education and jobs to those most in need among us) is expected to be able to actually administer this function of getting the borders closed and finding and shipping out all these dangerous, and according to some, costly illegals.

 

If somehow we manage to accomplish the sealing of the borders and the deportation of all illegals, what then? Will everyone in power and all American be happy with the status quo? What about all those already unemployed poor? As you have already so clearly pointed out in your above post, why bother giving a decent education to a child and enabling him to have an opportunity for a decent job when there are no decent jobs to be had???

 

Shall we just shut ourselves off from the rest of the world and pretend that we are still the most important and superior nation in the world just because we are the most powerful and yes, the most willing to come to the aid of those we think deserve our aid.

 

 

PS. @Aurielius. Regarding the statistics, I realized that we can all find statistics to back our arguments, so decided to just drop the statistics line of reasoning. But noticed you did not respond to anything else that I said in my prior post. ..Granny..

[Vagrant0]

The solution, clearly, is to just legally acknowledge these illegal immigrants as "non-persons" much the same way that we legally acknowledge companies as "persons". By doing this we are no longer tasked with respecting any of their rights, can use them for cheap labor, laboratory testing, organ supply, or any other need which cannot be satisfied through normal means. In doing this, the incentive to enter the country illegally drops significantly while major companies and society can reap the benefits from those who are already here. It's very simple, costs almost nothing, and solves the majority of the problem with relatively low risk of legal citizens being sequestered for dangerous medical testing.