Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

Well, that last sentence is pretty controversial in and of itself. China probably considers Tibet to be a province, despite what most western countries, who haven't been bribed to think otherwise, think.

[MosAnted]

I keep seeing people comparing Germany between wars to the Empire, when critizimg the latter for not being ready for war 20-some years after the Great War. Heres a couple of things you're failing to take into accounr:

1-INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION! Germany, even after War reparations, was still the most industrialized country in Europe. On the flip side, The Empire (and Tamriel's states for that matter) are stuck in "medieval stasis": they're still largely agrarian, feudal societies. Their production output, both in goods and population, cant be compared to a industrialized european power.

2-THE WAR WAS FOUGHT IN IMPERIAL LAND! Germany surrendered before Entente forces managed to penetrate into its territory. Why did the US come out on top as a World Superpower after WW2? Because it wasnt fought on its land! The Us didnt have to deal with rebuilding infrastructure and population like the european powers did. The Empire not only suffered crippling military casualties during the Great War, they've also had to deal with the aftereffects of the Thalmor raping and pillaging the cities and farmlands. While bo sources directly mention it, I wouldnt be surprised if the Empire experienced famine shortly after the war.

[Codifer]

 

 

What treaty gives the right to anyone to indiscriminately capture, torture and kill civilians of the side the signed the treaty and they be perfectly fine with that? That's nuts. It is the Empire's OBLIGATION to abide by the terms of the treaty they signed, which means they should be the ones doing the policing - not the Thalmor. It sure as hell looks as if the Empire is choosing NOT to honor their obligation and letting the Thalmor run buck wild doing whatever they feel like. Even going so far as giving them access to a fort to torture people (and they know they are doing that, and handed them a prisoner to be tortured), absolute lunacy of epic proportions.

Post-WW2, who was it that was busily tracking down Nazis throughout Germany and Austria? It wasn't the German government. "To the victors goes the spoils." By the terms of the WGC, Talos worship is forbidden. It doesn't specify who was supposed to conduct the actual policing. The Empire had been giving that part of the treaty lip service. But then the Markarth Incident occurred and the Thalmor saw that lip service for what it was. So, "If you won't uphold that part of the treaty, then we will have to do it!" To which the Empire agreed. (Better to have Talos worshipers hating the Thalmor for hunting them down then for them to be hating the Empire for having done it. Cheaper for the Empire too.)

 

 

Moreover there are still US troops in Germany, although these days mostly to watch the Russians...

 

 

 

True enough..... although the folks being hunted in Germany had committed atrocities prior to the occupation and were NOT being hunted because they were Catholics or Lutherans. Might be a difference there.

 

Cheers

[Codifer]

I keep seeing people comparing Germany between wars to the Empire, when critizimg the latter for not being ready for war 20-some years after the Great War. Heres a couple of things you're failing to take into accounr:

1-INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION! Germany, even after War reparations, was still the most industrialized country in Europe. On the flip side, The Empire (and Tamriel's states for that matter) are stuck in "medieval stasis": they're still largely agrarian, feudal societies. Their production output, both in goods and population, cant be compared to a industrialized european power.

2-THE WAR WAS FOUGHT IN IMPERIAL LAND! Germany surrendered before Entente forces managed to penetrate into its territory. Why did the US come out on top as a World Superpower after WW2? Because it wasnt fought on its land! The Us didnt have to deal with rebuilding infrastructure and population like the european powers did. The Empire not only suffered crippling military casualties during the Great War, they've also had to deal with the aftereffects of the Thalmor raping and pillaging the cities and farmlands. While bo sources directly mention it, I wouldnt be surprised if the Empire experienced famine shortly after the war.

 

I believe that Russian forces penetrated Germany as far as Berlin.... and, after having witnessed a score million deaths in their own homeland, did a great deal of raping and pillaging. Bit of a payback.

 

Cheers

Edited October 3, 2015 by Codifer

[kimmera]

 

 

 

There is no circumstance whatsoever where the Empire should be emboldening the Thalmor to perform what is essentially SS tactics in Imperial territory. Treaty or no treaty, it makes absolutely no sense unless the side that invites it (Empire) simply can't defend themselves, even 25 years+ after the end of the Great War.

 

20+ years after WWI, Germany was threatening dominance of the entire European region, even after being the subject of ridiculous financial sanctions.

 

This Empire is essentially done.

i don't think you grast the sevirty of Ulfric's a actions

Here try a contemtory example

Ulfric is a guvonor, and a war vetran, he goes to the white house kills the president, vice president and the other head members of the judiciary brach leaving behind the only person remotely close to the ruling body being the first lady, then he arms a milita and declares the US needs to break all internatioanl ties and become a independent nation while setting his militioa to take any disagreeing sates and counties by force.

 

Ulfric didn't just kill a guy he destroyed the entire field of power in skyrim, Rember skyrim is rulled by a high King not a council so taking out the high king takes out the entire politcal structure of the empire.

 

 

 

What the actual f, nekollx? The US is already an independent nation, while Skyrim, under Torygg, is a vassal state of Cyrodiil. Also, the only person that Ulfric killed that day was Torygg after Torygg agreed to the duel. Ulfric wants to remove Cyrodiil's military and political influence from Skyrim, but that's it. He has no qualms about Imperial businesses operating even in his own city. Yes, Ulfric does remove Torygg's administration. That was kinda his goal, to replace it with his own. As for the rest of what you wrote... Ugh, too many typos physically wound me.

 

The better example would be a veteran of Iraq returns with his unit to Puerto Rico, where he kills the governor in what he claims was a legal duel (or in 'self defense' might be a better modern equivalent), then flees San Juan to his own neighborhood where he hooks up with his unit who are all loyal to him and takes up the fight for Puerto Rican independance.

 

Then complains when the US intervenes.

 

Last time that I checked, the US did not suppress Puerto Rican religious freedom. A better example is the current situation in Asia where the Chinese government declared that it will appoint the next religious leader of Tibet after the Dalai Lama steps down. If a Tibetan militia kills the Party Secretary in Tibet in retaliation, along with any local politicians appointed by the Communist Government, then they would be justified in their rebellion.

 

 

I gave you a hypothetical situation. You tossed it out on the basis it isn't a 'real' situation. No such real veteran is doing any such real thing. Why does it have to be religion? What if the veteran and his men just object that strongly to US foreign policy based on what they saw in Afghanistan? What if they just don't like the national debt situation and want to distance themselves from what they see as a self destructive economic situation?

 

And China threatens all sorts of things. They consider Taiwan to still be theirs. Frankly, even if Italy tried to choose the next Pope it would not mean a rebellion is justified. The world would not be obligated to agree that the Chinese choice was the new Dalai Lama, nor would they be obligated to recognize the Italian government's hypothetical choice of a new Pope. Those are not situations worth killing over. Tibet has been part of China for centuries and was run by warlords before being conquered by China. It was no 'Shangra-La' regardless of the mysticism around the Dalai Lama.

 

Tibet isn't that bad an analogy though. It was considered part of China by the Yuan dynasty, but left under semi-autonomous rule, with an administer chosen by the Lama but approved by the Emperor. That only ended because of the takeover of China by the Ming dynasty, but was re-established in the early 1700's. Note this was before Russia would acquire Crimea or Ukraine or the US would acquire California, all of those acquisitions also by war. After 300 years, does it still count as 'occupation,' especially given how much the rest of the world's borders have changed in that time? Should the US abandon North America? They are technically occupiers too....

 

There was another period of autonomy in the 1900's but that led to the warlords I mentioned and then with the Chinese revolution it was back under Chinese control.

[MidbossVyers]

There, you see, controversial. Also, I could say something, but Cyrus says it better:

What do you think of that speech, Cyrus, and the plot of Redguard, in general?

Edited October 3, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[CaptainPatch]

I believe that Russian forces penetrated Germany as far as Berlin.... and, after having witnessed a score million deaths in their own homeland, did a great deal of raping and pillaging. Bit of a payback.

Two different World Wars. He was talking about Germany after WW1, and you are talking about Germany after WW2.

Tibet isn't that bad an analogy though. It was considered part of China by the Yuan dynasty, but left under semi-autonomous rule, with an administer chosen by the Lama but approved by the Emperor. That only ended because of the takeover of China by the Ming dynasty, but was re-established in the early 1700's. Note this was before Russia would acquire Crimea or Ukraine or the US would acquire California, all of those acquisitions also by war. After 300 years, does it still count as 'occupation,' especially given how much the rest of the world's borders have changed in that time? Should the US abandon North America? They are technically occupiers too....

 

There was another period of autonomy in the 1900's but that led to the warlords I mentioned and then with the Chinese revolution it was back under Chinese control.

Tibet has spent much of its existence being subjugated by Chinese conquerors. When the Qing Dynasty in China fell 1911, the Chinese occupiers severed ties with China and declared themselves to be in control of Tibet. (The warlord period you mentioned.) The Dalai Lama returned from exile in 1912 and expelled the Chinese that remained, making Tibet essentially independent. A formal declaration was issued in 1913. In China at that time, it was there that the warlords were in control. In 1950, with the Communists then in control of mainland China, the Reds invaded, reasserting Chinese ownership of Tibet. So. as it was not the Tibetans affiliating with China, it has been an intermittent succession of Chinese Occupiers in a nation that NEVER wanted them there. That differs significantly from the relationship between Skyrim and the Empire.

[Codifer]

I stand corrected. My apologies. Germany was intact after "the War to end all Wars".

 

Cheers

[Lachdonin]

There, you see, controversial. Also, I could say something, but Cyrus says it better

What do you think of that speech, Cyrus, and the plot of Redguard, in general?

 

Largely irrelevant. Cyrus stood on one side of a long running civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears, both of which had legitimate claim to the territories, ALL territories, in Hammerfell. Technically, the Forbears, as the most direct descendants of the Warrior Wave, had claim first, but that's less the point. The Empire sided with the Forebears, and assisted them in overthrowing the Crowns, with the agreement that Hammerfell then become a province of the Empire. The Crowns, of course, opposed both the Forbears and the Empire, and LOST.

 

They then fostered a rebellion and fought back again, pushing for sufficient leverage to encourage the Empire to give them control over certain territories, rather than total control of the Forebears. They did not achieve independence, but remained part of the Empire as part of the agreement.

[MidbossVyers]

 

I believe that Russian forces penetrated Germany as far as Berlin.... and, after having witnessed a score million deaths in their own homeland, did a great deal of raping and pillaging. Bit of a payback.

Two different World Wars. He was talking about Germany after WW1, and you are talking about Germany after WW2.

Tibet isn't that bad an analogy though. It was considered part of China by the Yuan dynasty, but left under semi-autonomous rule, with an administer chosen by the Lama but approved by the Emperor. That only ended because of the takeover of China by the Ming dynasty, but was re-established in the early 1700's. Note this was before Russia would acquire Crimea or Ukraine or the US would acquire California, all of those acquisitions also by war. After 300 years, does it still count as 'occupation,' especially given how much the rest of the world's borders have changed in that time? Should the US abandon North America? They are technically occupiers too....

 

There was another period of autonomy in the 1900's but that led to the warlords I mentioned and then with the Chinese revolution it was back under Chinese control.

Tibet has spent much of its existence being subjugated by Chinese conquerors. When the Qing Dynasty in China fell 1911, the Chinese occupiers severed ties with China and declared themselves to be in control of Tibet. (The warlord period you mentioned.) The Dalai Lama returned from exile in 1912 and expelled the Chinese that remained, making Tibet essentially independent. A formal declaration was issued in 1913. In China at that time, it was there that the warlords were in control. In 1950, with the Communists then in control of mainland China, the Reds invaded, reasserting Chinese ownership of Tibet. So. as it was not the Tibetans affiliating with China, it has been an intermittent succession of Chinese Occupiers in a nation that NEVER wanted them there. That differs significantly from the relationship between Skyrim and the Empire.

 

Skyrim only accepted the Empire of Talos under the assumption that the Emperor was Dragonborn. Is the current Emperor Dragonborn?