Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

Cyrodil's military strength at the end of the Great War wouldn't stop Cyrodil from falling apart ten years later

There's a distinct difference between military strength used to fight a war with an external foe and military required to maintain domestic tranquility. Domestically, Imperial military assets augment local authorities to suppress rampant banditry, civil unrest, and civil disorder. During times of war with a foreign power, that augmentation isn't available and the local authorities find themselves stretched thin, allowing those domestic problems to get out of hand.

 

[This is something I have wondered about ever since the first time I helped the Empire win the civil war. Once the Empire was no longer needing to fight frequent battles with Stormcloaks, it really should have freed up manpower to hunt bandits and suppress the Forsworn attacks. But post-civil war, nothing changed. (I'm guessing that those elements were deliberately NOT reduced, just to give the player more things to do.)]

[kimmera]

Not just to give us more to do but more any attempt at making a more dynamic world, especially on a significant scale would be a lot of extra programming hours....

[fraquar]

Captain, is there really any Imperial troops of any significant numbers in Skyrim? It sure seems like they modeled this Civil War off of the early years of the Vietnam War (i.e. Nords fighting Nords under Imperial leadership). In that scenario, upon conclusion of the hostilities both sides return to their Holds - and the Jarls have more than enough manpower to squash the whole Bandit scene in their own backyard. All but the most hardcore Bandit groups would know the game is up once Civil War hostilities cease.

[CaptainPatch]

Captain, is there really any Imperial troops of any significant numbers in Skyrim? It sure seems like they modeled this Civil War off of the early years of the Vietnam War (i.e. Nords fighting Nords under Imperial leadership). In that scenario, upon conclusion of the hostilities both sides return to their Holds - and the Jarls have more than enough manpower to squash the whole Bandit scene in their own backyard. All but the most hardcore Bandit groups would know the game is up once Civil War hostilities cease.

Much of the perception is skewed by the scaling that Bethesda was working under. Like the towns and villages, there is only ONE graphic for a character where there should be tens, hundreds, thousands of people. Comparing to Vietnam, a sweep of an area looking for opponents would have at a minimum involved at least one company = 100-120 men. The same kind of sweep/patrol that we see being done by just 4 Imperial soldiers. The battles at Whiterun and Solitude would have involved thousands/tens of thousands of soldiers, on BOTH sides. But in total, both sides combined, we see less than 100 soldiers. So, with that kind of scaling going on, I can see that there were "significant" numbers present.

 

After the civil war ends in an Imperial victory, the FIRST thing that happens would be Tullius sending the good news back to the Imperial City. In that communication, he would query as to whether there were any specific orders that the Emperor would want to issue upon hearing that news. I would guess that Tullius would be praying to be told that he was to return to Cyrodiil ASAP. But more than likely I expect that he would be told to stay put and to make sure that the rebellion is truly and finally squashed. Along those lines, the logical course of action would be to create a small Imperial garrison in each Skyrim city which would be conducting sweeps in the areas immediately surrounding each city. Fully half of Imperial assets in Skyrim would be sent to the Reach to squash the Forsworn once and for all. AFTER THE FORSWORN have been subdued, then the next objective would be to put bandits out of business. (At least the larger operations that used to occupy the vacant forts, mines, etc.)

 

Unfortunately for Tullius, he most likely wouldn't be recalled until after the Forsworn threat was removed. (Gives him extra motivation to make that happen ASAP.)

[fraquar]

I doubt that once Skyrim installed a new High King that Tullius would still be roaming Skyrim doing a police action - the Nords would do their own mop up work. The only reason they aren't policing themselves now is because of the vast number of their own citizens on both sides that are away fighting each other. Once that stops, they police themselves like normal.

 

Only reason the Forsworn are even acting up is because Markarth is being stripped bare of it's citizenry to fight in the Civil War - much like they did when Nords were called away to fight the Great War. Once they returned, the Forsworn were put in their place, not by an Imperial army but by a Nord militia.

 

If Tullius did stay on, I'd sure as hell hope that it was to keep the Thalmor in check, since it's the Imperials who are giving them carte blanche to roam and do as they please on Imperial soil. That the Nords wouldn't be able to police/monitior by themselves - they didn't sign the treaty.

Edited September 26, 2015 by fraquar

[CaptainPatch]

If Tullius did stay on, I'd sure as hell hope that it was to keep the Thalmor in check, since it's the Imperials who are giving them carte blanche to roam and do as they please on Imperial soil. That the Nords wouldn't be able to police/monitior by themselves - they didn't sign the treaty.

That last part is ridiculous. That's like saying that a treaty signed by the USA would not apply in CA because CA was not a signatory to the treaty. Being part of the Empire, any Imperial treaty applies to every province in the Empire.

 

But you raise a good point. Tullius and the Legion, as being direct representatives of the Empire, would be responsible to suppress the attacks being made on the Thalmor Talos-hunter patrols. (Something ALL of my characters have been guilty of whenever they encountered such patrols out in the middle of nowhere.) Every one of those attacks is a treaty violation, and Tullius would be obligated to pursue and punish anyone violating an Imperial treaty.

[kimmera]

I doubt that once Skyrim installed a new High King that Tullius would still be roaming Skyrim doing a police action - the Nords would do their own mop up work. The only reason they aren't policing themselves now is because of the vast number of their own citizens on both sides that are away fighting each other. Once that stops, they police themselves like normal.

 

Only reason the Forsworn are even acting up is because Markarth is being stripped bare of it's citizenry to fight in the Civil War - much like they did when Nords were called away to fight the Great War. Once they returned, the Forsworn were put in their place, not by an Imperial army but by a Nord militia.

 

If Tullius did stay on, I'd sure as hell hope that it was to keep the Thalmor in check, since it's the Imperials who are giving them carte blanche to roam and do as they please on Imperial soil. That the Nords wouldn't be able to police/monitior by themselves - they didn't sign the treaty.

 

I agree with most of what you say here, but regarding the last part, it isn't a democracy. There is a very limited form of democracy with respect to the choosing of the High King via the Jarls, but other than that, everyone seems to be appointed. And even though the High King is 'elected' they still answer to the Emperor. The Nords 'signed the treaty' in advance when they swore to follow Talos (and thus the Empire he founded).

 

And something else that seems to be forgotten is that back when the original oath was made, it was when Tibor Septim was still forming the Empire a la Caesar, and had defeated the combined Nord armies. They didn't just decide one day to start following. They had also been defeated in battle. Saying that they are no longer part of the Empire because Tibor Septim's kin are no longer in charge would be like California seceding because no Polk descendant is in charge. The Empire that Tibor Septim set up allowed for leaders other than his kin to be in power, even if that didn't happen until the bloodline died out.

 

For that matter, the bloodline died saving the world from Mehrunes Dagon and the Oblivion Crisis. Great way to honour that sacrifice, Skyrim....

 

Skyrim's people should accept the Imperial Plan, understand that they lost round 1, so for now it is best to lay low and build strength back up quietly and be properly ready for round 2. A treaty can take away open worship, since that is an action that can be observed and suppressed, but cannot take away actual faith, which is internal and thus invisible to detection. Faith in RL has survived despite fanatically atheistic regimes like Russia or China, or fanatically monotheistic regimes like Afghanistan or Iran or Spain (under the Inquisition) or Nazi Germany, and those include regimes with modern weapons and communications and mobility and far more efficient means of suppress whatever they please, where the regime itself is actively doing the suppressing, not limited numbers of outside agents.

 

To both you and CaptainPatch: The scale thing is annoying and tricky, since sometimes a soldier is just a soldier and sometimes they represent a larger unit. It isn't consistent. The Thalmor patrols are likely just three or four men, since they are not out looking for vast armies of Talos worshipers, but the Civil War forces likely represent larger numbers.... except the leaders of course who are individuals. I often wish that they didn't try to portray them as larger numbers at all, and just went with the world having small populations, more tribes than medieval cities..... but I guess realism wouldn't sell as well....

[MosAnted]

 

Captain, is there really any Imperial troops of any significant numbers in Skyrim? It sure seems like they modeled this Civil War off of the early years of the Vietnam War (i.e. Nords fighting Nords under Imperial leadership). In that scenario, upon conclusion of the hostilities both sides return to their Holds - and the Jarls have more than enough manpower to squash the whole Bandit scene in their own backyard. All but the most hardcore Bandit groups would know the game is up once Civil War hostilities cease.

Much of the perception is skewed by the scaling that Bethesda was working under. Like the towns and villages, there is only ONE graphic for a character where there should be tens, hundreds, thousands of people. Comparing to Vietnam, a sweep of an area looking for opponents would have at a minimum involved at least one company = 100-120 men. The same kind of sweep/patrol that we see being done by just 4 Imperial soldiers. The battles at Whiterun and Solitude would have involved thousands/tens of thousands of soldiers, on BOTH sides. But in total, both sides combined, we see less than 100 soldiers. So, with that kind of scaling going on, I can see that there were "significant" numbers present.

 

 

Tullius does mention he's mostly recruiting locally and is not getting any reinforcements from Cyrodiil since the vast majority of Legion assets are tied up in the AD Border. So The 4th Legion (The one fighting the Civil War) Is mostly comprised of local recruits with Imperial leadership (and breton, dunmer, nord and even altmer legates).

Edited September 26, 2015 by MosAnted

[CaptainPatch]

I often wish that they didn't try to portray them as larger numbers at all, and just went with the world having small populations, more tribes than medieval cities..... but I guess realism wouldn't sell as well....

If you are suggesting a one-for-one representation, then if Skyrim is a typical province representation, than an entire empire would amount to just several hundred/a couple thousand at most citizens. A population that small, spread over that much space would be in danger of disappearing due to extinction, even with no wars being fought. One debilitating flu epidemic could kill of an entire city. (There are some diseases that cannot be cured by shrine blessings or Cure Disease potions.)

[kimmera]

 

I often wish that they didn't try to portray them as larger numbers at all, and just went with the world having small populations, more tribes than medieval cities..... but I guess realism wouldn't sell as well....

If you are suggesting a one-for-one representation, then if Skyrim is a typical province representation, than an entire empire would amount to just several hundred/a couple thousand at most citizens. A population that small, spread over that much space would be in danger of disappearing due to extinction, even with no wars being fought. One debilitating flu epidemic could kill of an entire city. (There are some diseases that cannot be cured by shrine blessings or Cure Disease potions.)

 

 

This isn't Earth. Populations can be whatever the want them to be. Populations that small managed in North America just fine over a much larger area before European settlers arrived. Humanity hasn't always had modern (or even medieval) population levels, and the world hasn't really significantly changed size. As for epidemics, well again, what is different with reality? Epidemics usually come with larger populations. Smaller populations offer much less chance for anything nasty to breed or evolve.