kimmera Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) Skyrim only accepted the Empire of Talos under the assumption that the Emperor was Dragonborn. Is the current Emperor Dragonborn? That is not strictly true. He was made a general by the King of Falkreath because of that and defeated the Reachmen in that king's service (and interesting side note that at the time there were Kings rather than Jarls, and Falkreath had a large enough army to have a position of 'general), but then assassinated his king and took over. He got the rest of Skyrim as well as Cyrodiil on side simultaneously much later at the Battle of Sancre Tor, where he tricked the enemy forces into leaving their fortress and snuck his troops into the fortress via the back door, the promptly used the defensive power of the fortress to give him the advantage to defeat his enemies. They were so impressed the Skyrim generals signed on. The High Rock (Breton) leadership was executed and the Breton troops sold into slavery or imprisoned... maybe this is where the 'Nords only' mentality came from? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Sancre_Tor_(Book) It is also worth noting that Talos means 'Stormcrown' so it is hard to consider 'Stormcloak' to be an insult. Furthermore, Ulfric isn't Dragonborn, and treats THE Dragonborn as a lackey. He promotes the DB but certainly doesn't consider them an equal, let alone a superior even after the DB defeats Alduin and/or Miraak and/or saves Tamriel from vampires that have been in Skyrim since before Talos, yet strangely seem not to be a concern for Ulfric or the Empire.... Edit: moreover, Skyrim didn't suddenly say 'the deal is off' during the Oblivion Crisis when the last Septim was believed dead, nor at the end when the last Septim *was* dead. Ulfric never once uses the death of the Septim line as justification either. Edited October 4, 2015 by kimmera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 Skyrim only accepted the Empire of Talos under the assumption that the Emperor was Dragonborn. Is the current Emperor Dragonborn?There hasn't been a Dragonborn on the throne since 3 E 433. It's now 4 E 201. If not having a Dragonborn on the throne was such a big dealbreaker, why didn't Skyrim secede from the Empire in over two centuries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 Skyrim only accepted the Empire of Talos under the assumption that the Emperor was Dragonborn. Is the current Emperor Dragonborn?There hasn't been a Dragonborn on the throne since 3 E 433. It's now 4 E 201. If not having a Dragonborn on the throne was such a big dealbreaker, why didn't Skyrim secede from the Empire in over two centuries? Skyrim only accepted the Empire of Talos under the assumption that the Emperor was Dragonborn. Is the current Emperor Dragonborn?There hasn't been a Dragonborn on the throne since 3 E 433. It's now 4 E 201. If not having a Dragonborn on the throne was such a big dealbreaker, why didn't Skyrim secede from the Empire in over two centuries? Because they were still allowed to revere him in spirit. Now, they're denied the Dragonborn Emperor in both blood and spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) Because they were still allowed to revere him in spirit. Now, they're denied the Dragonborn Emperor in both blood and spirit. But Ulfric never once makes the distinction of 'Dragonborn.' And the only ones who seem to show any respect to the Dragonborn based on their status rather than their deeds are the Whiterun soldiers in the first dragon encounter, and the Greybeards. Everyone else seems more impressed that the DB has Azura's Star. The Stormcloaks who you claim revere Dragonborn are reluctant to sign a non-Nord dragonborn up, and test them before considering them a real member. Esbern is similar despite knowing the DB has to save the bloody world. Edited October 4, 2015 by kimmera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Yeah, the Dragonborn thing is a non issue. Skyrim didn't join the Reman Empire because he was Dragonborn, and the Nords actively REJECTED the Alessians after a relatively short period, despite it being a Dragonborn Empire. Moreover, there has NEVER been a Dragonborn ruler of the Nords. It's not part of their historic faith, or their mythic kingships. Skyrim even outright rejected Imperial gods LIKE Talos around the time of the Oblivion Crisis.. They wanted to worship Shor and Tsun and Kyne, the hell with Akatosh and Talos. Skyrims loyalty has never been about the Septum dynasty, or Tiber Septim himself. They've been part of the Empire since its founding, for a variety of reasons, but the Septims and the worship of Talos have never been the driving factor. Revenge against the Elves? Fear of reprisal? Trade? Sure. But not the dynasty or gods. And this isn't the first time they've been uppity either. 2 invasions of Morrowind, one of Orsinium, at least one civil war... And they've remained part of the Empire throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 What about Ysmir, Dragon of the North? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 What about Ysmir, Dragon of the North?Unknown, conflicting entity. There is ongoing debate about what Ysmir represents, so it's impossible to really tell. We know one Ysmir, Wulfhearth (the same Wulfhearth who may have allowed Hjalti Earlybeard to cheat the Greybeards) was not Dragonborn. From a Nordic name for the Warrior, to a synthetic being of Dragonborn and Shezzarine, to a mythic hero elevated to god-status, we just dont know what Ysmir is. Shouting seems to be involved, but even then we aren't sure (one version of Tiber's history indicates he couldn't shout at all). Ysmir has always been an individual title, however, not something that is carried through dynasties. If the Nords did revere Talos as Ysmir in life, that reverance ended with his death and did not pass to his heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosAnted Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Skyrim only accepted the Empire of Talos under the assumption that the Emperor was Dragonborn. Is the current Emperor Dragonborn? That is not strictly true. He was made a general by the King of Falkreath because of that and defeated the Reachmen in that king's service (and interesting side note that at the time there were Kings rather than Jarls, and Falkreath had a large enough army to have a position of 'general), but then assassinated his king and took over. He got the rest of Skyrim as well as Cyrodiil on side simultaneously much later at the Battle of Sancre Tor, where he tricked the enemy forces into leaving their fortress and snuck his troops into the fortress via the back door, the promptly used the defensive power of the fortress to give him the advantage to defeat his enemies. They were so impressed the Skyrim generals signed on. The High Rock (Breton) leadership was executed and the Breton troops sold into slavery or imprisoned... maybe this is where the 'Nords only' mentality came from? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Sancre_Tor_(Book) It is also worth noting that Talos means 'Stormcrown' so it is hard to consider 'Stormcloak' to be an insult. Furthermore, Ulfric isn't Dragonborn, and treats THE Dragonborn as a lackey. He promotes the DB but certainly doesn't consider them an equal, let alone a superior even after the DB defeats Alduin and/or Miraak and/or saves Tamriel from vampires that have been in Skyrim since before Talos, yet strangely seem not to be a concern for Ulfric or the Empire.... Edit: moreover, Skyrim didn't suddenly say 'the deal is off' during the Oblivion Crisis when the last Septim was believed dead, nor at the end when the last Septim *was* dead. Ulfric never once uses the death of the Septim line as justification either. Furthermore, Skyrim was the first province to back Titus Mede I's claim as emperor after the Interregnum, despite the knowledge he was *not* a Dragonborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I'm thinking on the whole hero-becomes-god process and I'm thinking, wouldn't it be like the Mongols declaring Genghis Khan MUST be a god, given everything he accomplished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Did those accomplishments include bending space with his Voice and bending time with a giant robot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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