pgir001 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Bethesda really tried to set it up so both sides are a tough call. They wanted it so there is no right or wrong. They failed. Probably due to having gutted the ark to the point of almost non existence in the game. They left one major issue that I have a hard time with. Ulfric has no justification to attack Whiterun under his cause other than for his own personal gain. Whiterun is neutral and does not support the Empire nor does it oppose the Stormcloaks. It also openly allows Talos worship right out in the streets. This means that Ulfric commits Nords to death against other Nords and it is not for his religious reasons. It's just that he simply want's the hold. That completely invalidates his cause. Ulfric is just as bad for Skyrim as the Thalmor. It's probably not how it was supposed to be in the game, But it's how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPH1 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Ulfric is fighting for Nordic cultural survival (not mere racism, as most apparently jump onto.) So I don't know that Whiterun can merely be and remain neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgir001 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) I'm still not convinced, that's enough justification for Nords to kill Nords who aren't their enemy. I've always felt the Civil War was one of Skyrim's biggest squandered opportunities. I've always believed that the Dragonborn should have been above the the war and his/her job was to put a stop to it. I've always seen both sides as bad for Skyrim. Both have very few redeeming qualities. However, Ulfric is right about one thing. Contrary to what is said, the Empire is NOT keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim. But that doesn't mean his way is better. Ulfric as an unworthy king. Otherwise, I'd side with the "rebel's" every time. I feel as the Steward of Markarth does. I've always felt the ARK should have been told along the lines of the Dragonborn approaching the Jarls in each hold and rallying them......or forcing them, one way or another, to join a 3rd banner. One that is for Skyrim, but not Ulfric. (The Dragonborn's). Then with a unified Skyrim, stamp out the other 2 warring factions. As I've posted elsewhere in the past on similar topics, I've always seen the story carry on beyond the game. And in that Story, I've seen where (Assuming the Dragonborn is a Nord, which is lore history and not looking at everyone's individual games) given all his / her exploits, I find it almost impossible for the topic of the High King vote at the moot to not become an issue for Elisif, Ulfric and the Dragonborn. Especially considering how the Dragonborn single handedly won the war, unified the factions in Skyrim and assembled a mighty military force both seen and unseen in the Realm, including Rebuilding The Blades, The College, The DB, the TG, Volkihar, the Dawnguard, The Companions, and ultimately even many Dragons themselves. Having become "The 2nd most powerful Dragonborn that ever lived" and then killing the 1st, Means the 4E. Dragonborn has surpassed all others including Talos himself. The issue of nobility can be answered in that by being Dragonborn, the bloodline can be said to be of the same origin as Talos himself, if not a direct descendant of Talos. The Issue of the player not being Nord, can be answered by marrying one of the Jarls, who becomes King/Queen. I Imagine the Entrance to the Moot. All those factions show up. The Dragonorn rides in on dragonback with more circling overhead.....Yeah, that's an entrance. It is for this reason, one that doesn't even exist in the game and that I made up, that sometimes, I do join the Stormcloaks. The idea that Yeah, I'll help Ulfric win the War, but not to be the High King. Edited December 21, 2015 by pgir001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPH1 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Nice analysis! You have put a lot of thought into the game (as I want to do.) Perhaps for another thread, but are you familiar with the theory that the great farms in Rorikstead are the result of Daedric worship and female human sacrifice? _____________________________ My Stuff: Cracked Tusk Keep Tweaked: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71322Ruined Whiterun Farmhouse Tweaked: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68392SPH1's Rorikstead Farm House: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68880SPH1's Saxon Norman Rorikstead Fort: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71690 Youtube: Mounted Horse Combat: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmdH_zdDm8&feature=youtu.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgir001 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 .... You have put a lot of thought into the game...... _____________________________ My Stuff: Cracked Tusk Keep Tweaked: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71322Ruined Whiterun Farmhouse Tweaked: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68392SPH1's Rorikstead Farm House: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68880SPH1's Saxon Norman Rorikstead Fort: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71690 Youtube: Mounted Horse Combat: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmdH_zdDm8&feature=youtu.be Far more than I probably shouldLOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcat221 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Point of order: The most powerful Dragonborn to ever live would have to be Talos. Because, yaknow, he apotheosed. Miraak fell to the Last Dragonborn, so that makes him not the most powerful (Technically Hermy did the deed, but at that point LDB had him on the ropes). Which aspect of Talos? Tiber Septim or Ysmir Wulfharth? Yes. Ultimately, the Civil War can be distilled to which of those two aspects you adhere to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Ultimately, the Civil War can be distilled to which of those two aspects you adhere to. Well, only one of the 3 managed to walk away. And it wasn't the Snake or the Ash-King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Bethesda really tried to set it up so both sides are a tough call. They wanted it so there is no right or wrong. They failed. Probably due to having gutted the ark to the point of almost non existence in the game. They left one major issue that I have a hard time with. Ulfric has no justification to attack Whiterun under his cause other than for his own personal gain. Whiterun is neutral and does not support the Empire nor does it oppose the Stormcloaks. It also openly allows Talos worship right out in the streets. This means that Ulfric commits Nords to death against other Nords and it is not for his religious reasons. It's just that he simply want's the hold. That completely invalidates his cause. Ulfric is just as bad for Skyrim as the Thalmor. It's probably not how it was supposed to be in the game, But it's how it is.I have to completely agree with this analysis. Ulfric's ultimatum to Whiterun is nothing more than a terrorist threat: "You are either with us or against us -- and if against us, we WILL destroy you." There were four other provinces that WERE entirely Imperial adherents that the Stormcloaks could have chosen to assail. Instead they attack the only true Neutral in the equation. And as you eloquently point out, that Neutral had been demonstrating a clear affinity for the Stormcloaks -- open Talos worship -- so the attack on Whiterun had literally NOTHING to do with furthering Stormcloak ideals. Balgruuf even demonstrated his adherence to the Old Ways that Ulfric claims to champion by sending Ulfric his axe. By attacking Whiterun, Ulfric loses all credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 so the attack on Whiterun had literally NOTHING to do with furthering Stormcloak ideals. As much as i dislike Ulfric, and think the Stormcloaks are a bunch of short sighted thugs who don't seem to realise that their actions are doing more harm to their ideals than good, there is a major oversimplification here... Whiterun is one of the largest trade cities in Skyrim, sitting smack dab in the middle of one of the biggest and most travelled trade routes with easy access to 5 Holds. It's a huge strategic location, and a linchpin in trying to secure and supply forces on either side of the battle line. Control of Whiterun is crucial to maintaining a war in the opposing territory, which is why it's such a hotbed for the efforts of both the Empire and the Stormcloaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeddBate Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) so the attack on Whiterun had literally NOTHING to do with furthering Stormcloak ideals. As much as i dislike Ulfric, and think the Stormcloaks are a bunch of short sighted thugs who don't seem to realise that their actions are doing more harm to their ideals than good, there is a major oversimplification here... Whiterun is one of the largest trade cities in Skyrim, sitting smack dab in the middle of one of the biggest and most travelled trade routes with easy access to 5 Holds. It's a huge strategic location, and a linchpin in trying to secure and supply forces on either side of the battle line. Control of Whiterun is crucial to maintaining a war in the opposing territory, which is why it's such a hotbed for the efforts of both the Empire and the Stormcloaks. Well, I'm of the opinion that you are both right. I'm sure the strategic importance of Whiterun was uppermost in Ulfric's mind. (Believe me, I have problems ascribing anything reasonable to Ulfric...) However, I also believe that even if Whiterun was not so important, Ulfric would have (eventually) gone after it mainly because I believe he saw Balgruuf as a potential competitor for the High King's throne. No really. Balgruuf be totally ballin'... EDIT: I should mention that the above link is NSFW... Edited December 22, 2015 by LeddBate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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