Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[monganfinn]

 

that they are unable to go through the normal recruitment and training process

 

Which IMO just means that they don´t have the necessary time and need them on the frontline against the stormcloaks, thus sending them unprepared. But that´s exaclty it, we are talking here of the fresh recruits! Recruits that only would have been enlisted after the civil war broke out. Naturally they are unprepared and so on, that´s just how it is if you don´t have reserves. IMO they are just bemoaning that they can´t transfer the legions in Cyrodiil and High Rock into Skyrim.

 

I give you that the new recruits enlisted during the war are sub par. But so are any recruits the stormcloaks enlist during the war. We see ingame that redguard farmers and other peasants go and join either side. that´s a problem that both sides have not just the Legion. We also know that the rebels grew a lot in number. When Rikke says they´re going to attack Whiterun, Tullius dismisses her and says the cloaks dont have the numbers. In turn the Legion has no problem marching an army to Whiterun. So I dare say: the Imperial Legion far outnumbered the Stormcloaks at the beginning of the war.

 

The comparison with Hannibal doesn´t count, Roman legions of that time weren´t mercenaries like under Caesar and later on, those were all levies of the Roman citizen and allies. Yes there were some core legions, and yes those fought in Spain and Sicilly, but those were only the core legions because they existed even during the peacetime for peacekeeping and had more training because they had more time to train until they reached the battlefield in Iberia. I do have to argue a bit for Hannibal´s sake here: the war in Iberia´s holdings of Karthago was unimportant in the grand scheme of things compared to Hannibal attacking Rome directly, or rather ravaging their main land.

The military situation of the Legion during before and during the civil war is IMO as following:

9 full but poor legions, one for each hold and legate (we know individual legions are lead by legates and there are 9 of them in Skyrim, the legions of a province are lead by a general)

-apart from some they werent veterans of the great war but trained and outfitted normally

-I accept that they probably were understuffed and less than optimal geared up as most of the money and any surplus troops flowed south

-if their size is comparable to Roman legions than their numbers is probably around 4000, I take the lower limit because Oblivion Crisis, Infernal City and Great War + lost provinces would have taken a toll on the full army the Mede Empire could field - thus ~ 36.000 legionnaires.

Torygg is killed.

5 full but poor legions + 4 damaged legions,

-the legions stationed in the 4 old holds are pushed from the cities and there are many deserters.There are always deserters in a war and especially in a civil war, furthermore we know from Morrowind that the city guards are actually legionnaires loaned to the ruling lord so we can safely say that the city guards of Riften, Windhelm, Winterhold and Dawnstar are all deserters from those legions ~ 20.000 + 4x ???? legionnaires

-Whiterun is counted as Imperial held as Balgruuf´s neutrality is paper thin, at least ingame - I would accept another lore position, as the city guards attack stormcloaks, and there is no legion camp in the hold but a stormcloak camp

 

Compared to that the Stormcloaks are a slowly organizing band of volunteers + ex legionnaires:

-yes, they are led by veterans - so is the Legion!

-there is a core unit, Ulfric´s old militia from the Markath Incident (an unit that was disbanded by the Legion back then, we don´t know how many truly joined the Stormcoaks)

-the bulk of their numbers joined them after the war already started, and thus those too would be fresh recruits. We don´t know how many they had as they attacked Whiterun

I cant provide sources, but as far as I remember:

-they have even less gear than the legions

-they resort to guerilla warfare due to being outnumbered by the Legion

-they too only began to train new recruits on masse after the civil war already had begun

 

This is my understanding of the troop situation, please tell me where I´m wrong, as the topic actually interests me apart from the whole Imps vs Cloaks debate.

 

The rumour that there is just 1 legion in Skyrim IMO came about because they always talk the THE Imperial Legion and people dont understand that they are talking about the whole of the "Ruby Ranks", all of the many 18+ legions make up the Imperial Legion. For some reason no one wondered about that in Morrowind, as I dont remember them mentioning being several legions or perhaps even telling us their legion number.

Edited April 7, 2016 by monganfinn

[MidbossVyers]

Gear-wise, it seems the same to me. In-game stats show that both sides use at most steel level weapons. In terms of amount, the Legion clearly has some issues with getting new weapons, if only constrained by time, as mentioned by Adrianne and Idolaf: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Adrianne_Avenicci As for guerilla warfare... Save for special units, like the Dragonborn, who can wear whatever they want, most Stormcloaks wear light armor (or "medium armor", which is basically just light armor with a heavy shield), not too great for tanking. Still, nothing wrong with speedy tactics.

Edited April 10, 2016 by MidbossVyers

[monganfinn]

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Stormcloaks

"mostly hit-and-run tactics to overwhelm the larger Imperial armies. ... their use of armor is lighter and thus not as tough, but the Stormcloaks use a wider variety of weapons to make up for this."

 

I know, I know its the wiki, but Uesp agrees:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloaks

"They primarily rely on the use of axes and other melee weapons in combat, and use hit-and-run tactics to gain advantage over the larger Imperial armies."

 

I can´t find an ingame evidence right now, perhaps it was on one of the loading screens?? Either way, to assume that a hastily established rebel force of volunteers would be as well equiped as a professional army is not feasible for me, not even in Skyrim where every family apparently has their own suit of armor in the house.

[Padre86]

 

Dude, you're really getting stuck in the semantics here. Using a client or vassal state as a buffer state was a common practice in both ancient and medieval times. You don't have to take my word for it; there are plenty of historical examples you can go read about if you want to spend a few minutes on google.

 

I understand what your original point was on why Skyrim should continue to be a part of the Empire. I think I gave a pretty thorough response on why the Empire can potentially survive without Skyrim and why, even if the Empire falls, Skyrim will be able to stand up to a Thalmor invasion. So I won't waste any more space repeating my arguments.

There were also a LOT of buffer states that were NOT client states in Medieval times, but you seem insistent to totally ignore those in favor of the the model you have chosen to present; there are plenty of historical examples you can go read about if you want to spend a few minutes on Google.

 

Do you realize that by arguing that the Empire can potentially survive without Skyrim actually undercuts your argument? Because if the Empire CAN do that, it's not nearly as decrepit as you suggest. And if events transpire to where the Empire is gone and its just the AD and Skyrim facing off, then if you think Skyrim can succeed where the Empire failed, you're living in a Fantasy. (Oh, wait! That is precisely the situation!)

 

 

 

Forget buffer states and remember that yes the Empire can potentially survive without Skyrim in its domain, just like it survived without Hammerfell. Ulfric and many Nords are just as aware of the dangers posed by the Thalmor as is the Empire and its citizens...after all it was fresh Legions (mostly composed of Nords) that played the instrumental role in counter-attacking and defeating the Thalmor armies in Cyrodil. There was Nordic blood spilled in the Great War just as much as anyone else's.

 

So this is not about letting the Empire die by itself. Ulfric and most other Nords want to defeat the Thalmor threat, but on their own terms (like the New Zealanders and Australians still pretty much fight all the same enemies of the UK, but on their own terms and under their own commanders).

 

Just because the Empire can stand up to the Thalmor without Skyrim doesn't mean that the Nords don't have a legitimate reason for seeking their independence.

 

On the subject of Titus Mede being a craven surrender monkey with the White Gold Concordat, I give you this excerpt from "The Great War"; the first paragraph of the section "4E 175: The Battle of the Red Ring"...

 

 

 

During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II. The Emperor encouraged them in their belief that he was preparing to surrender; meanwhile, he gathered his forces to retake the Imperial City.

 

He's done this before. The question is... are the Thalmor wise to it?

 

Mede's war is a war of gambits. The Thalmor won't be defeated by chopping them in the face with an axe. I hypothesize that the renouncement of Hammerfell was a gambit as well; to see whether or not the Dominion were truly still strong or were a paper tiger after the Great War. The Thalmor respond in kind with gambits of their own: Ulfric and his rabble-rousing. He may not be a manchurian agent, but he's definitely an unwitting pawn. Mede had that well-handled by the appointment of General Tullius, until Alduin threw a whole bunch of dwemer junk into that plan.

 

I really don't see Ulfric Stormcloak being able to pull off the guileful gambits needed to defeat the Thalmor; In fact, he IS a gambit of the Thalmor. They wrote the comprehensive manual on all his angry buttons to push to get him to do what they want when they worked him over as a P.O.W. Just look at how he was ready to storm out when Elenwen was present at the truce negotiation.

 

Only through divine intervention do the Stormcloaks ever have any chance of winning. Ulfric's head was minutes away from being separated from his neck once Alduin swooped in, and only through the Dragonborn potentially joining them do they have a chance at victory.

 

A lot of things wrong with this post above. My counterpoints:

1) It was most definitely an axe to the face that defeated the Thalmor in the Great War (a Nordic one to be specific). I don't know why so many on here like to re-write history and forget that it was Nordic Legions that launched the decisive counter-attack and allowed Titus Mede to regroup and defeat the Thalmor armies.

 

2) It does take subtlety and subterfuge to prevail in Tamriel, and if you think neither Ulfric nor any of the other Jarls and warriors in Skyrim don't possess any of those traits then you must not have paid very much attention to Skyrim and its lore. The only reason Ulfric was even able to win the rebellion was because of his ability pull off "gambits" and manipulate, convince, persuade and coerce people to do his bidding.

 

3) Other than one short and vague note, supposedly written by the Thalmor, there is no direct evidence that Ulfric is a pawn of the Thalmor.

a) He fought against them in the Great War

b) After returning from imprisonment, all of his actions and commands have been focused on promoting the worship of Tiber Septim and degrading the influence of the Thalmor (in addition to the Empire). Why do Stormcloaks attack Thalmor agents on sight?

c) The note itself stated that his usefulness to the Thalmor was in doubt.

d) What the note likely references is that Ulfric was tortured and tricked into thinking that he gave up information which led to the downfall of the Imperial city. The reality is that the city had all ready fallen by the time he given up the information, according to the lore.

e) It is very possible that the note and its content were purposely fabricated by the Thalmor or some third party in order to discredit Ulfric. After all, this is Tamriel where subterfuge and strategic play is the norm.

 

 

This theory that Ulfric was brainwashed or somehow became a Thalmor agent after his capture during the Great War is widely believed by many on this forum, but I've yet to hear one solid reason why Ulfric would comply and agree to serve the Thalmor interests in such a way, especially after all he has been through.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Padre86

[monganfinn]

Ulfric was manipulated, Not brainwashed! But there is no indication whatsoever that the internal document of the Thalmor is a fabrication! However Ulfric is not aware he has been manipulated and according to the same document there was no "diplomatic" contact between him and the Thalmor since Markath - since his second imprisonment! Safe to assume that their contact back then consisted out of a Thalmor diplomat who accompanied the Imperial forces who arrested Uflric to make sure the Empire acts according to the pact. He is NOT their willing or even knowing agent, the help the Thalmor gave the Stormcloaks was to be "covert" and thus IMO even secret from the Cloaks themselves.

 

Furthermore the document names him an "asset", let me tell you something; Titus Mede, Tullius, Rikke etc they are ALL assets to the Thalmor! Everyone who participates in any capacity to prolong the Civil War or any other unrest within the Empire is an asset! Everyone, even Mottierre, or however else the Council guy was called.

 

Skyrim can survive alone, it has done so before. Cyrodiil can survive alone, it has done so before. All of the provinces can stand on their own! They aren´t some small regions with 5 towns and that was it, in the first place the land ruled by the Dominion consists out of the 3 smallest provinces! Their total land amounts perhaps to Cyrodiil itself alone. Considering the different time Mer and Men need to grow up Cyrodiil by itself can outlast the Thalmor!

Srsly you are all overestimating the Thalmor! They lost both of their armies when attacking the Empire, that´s not something they can do willy nilly only to achieve some obscure bjectives. They simply don´t have the necessary numbers. So the whole attack on the Imperial City was pure idiocy, even if they would have managed to kill Titus Mede, the Legions in High Rock, Skyrim + those coming over from Hammerfell would have ripped them apart. They not only weakened themselves by splitting their armies, they also overextended their supply lines and were cut off from a retreat option. They got haughty and paid for it!

Yes, they still did fight for 5 years with the Redguards, perhaps because their fleet was still intact and the land they fought over is on the coast?!!

I am not saying that they aren´t good tacticians and mages, however their magic isn´t that sensational either, otherwise the Legion would have lost at the Red Ring and the whole moon affair probably wasn´t them either. Even if they were responsible for that, there is nothing indicating they have something of the same caliber that actually damages things on Nirn itself.

They got the drop on the Empire once because their spy network being better and the Empire becoming lax, very lax. When one province after the other secedes you can´t not notice when all your agents suddenly go dark!

[Lachdonin]

 

I do have to argue a bit for Hannibal´s sake here: the war in Iberia´s holdings of Karthago was unimportant in the grand scheme of things compared to Hannibal attacking Rome directly, or rather ravaging their main land.

Most scholars actually attribute the war in Iberia, and the resounding Roman dominance therein, as the reason Hannibal was eventually forced out of Italy and never took Rome. The constant pressure on Carthaginian holdings elsewhere, and constant victories, helped maintain the support of Rome's allies (Hannibal had counted on them abandoning Rome) and also ensured that Hannibal received none of the promised reinforcements from Carthage. Because of his need to remain constantly mobile to resupply, Hannibal was reliant on those reinforcements to replace heavier siege equipment lost over the Alps, which would have allowed him to assault Rome-Proper. In addition, it was the eventual collapse of Carthage's territories in Ibera which allowed Rome to pressure the city-state its self, and force Hannibal's eventual withdrawl. The Iberian side of the Second Punic War was what decided the entire conflict, whereas Hannibal, though he could win every battle and is the most famous element, was something of a sideshow.

 

 

When Rikke says they´re going to attack Whiterun, Tullius dismisses her and says the cloaks dont have the numbers. In turn the Legion has no problem marching an army to Whiterun. So I dare say: the Imperial Legion far outnumbered the Stormcloaks at the beginning of the war.

 

There is definitely an element to gameplay to be had here, but the numbers may not be as skewed as you think. Consider, we know Windhelm has been sacked at least 3 times in history. It's a relatively low altitude city with multiple landward approaches. It's heavily fortified, yes, but not impregnable.

 

Solitude, on the other hand, has only fallen once that we know of. After a month long siege. It's location alone is far more difficult to approach, and while it would be very vulnerable to sufficient explosives, Tamriel really lacks a way to threaten the city's foundation.

 

Conventional military theory holds that you need between five and ten times the number of the defenders to take a city. And that's not considering rather weird geologic advantages like being hundreds of feet in the air.

 

The Stormcloaks would not have the numbers to storm Solitude. The losses would have been catastrophic, particularly considering that doing so wouldn't really diminish the Empires ability to counter attack from Cyrodiil. If we assume that a single legion held the city (so, approximately 6,000 men... Probably less, though, as the Imperials don't seem to use Auxillia) then Ulfric would require between 30 and 60 THOUSAND to storm it. It's only after bleeding the Legion, and capturing all it's supply and support lines, that Ulfric risks storming it.

 

 

 

A lot of things wrong with this post above. My counterpoints:

 

There is a lot more wrong with yours, my friend.

 

1; That's not what happened. The Nordic Legions, under General Ionna, linked up with the Hammerfell Legions, under General Decianus, and served to cut off the retreat of the Dominion forces at the Red Ring. The actually attack on the Imperial City was led by Titus Mede II, and comprised of the forces that had withdrawn from Cyrdoiil a year before. The Nords did not give Mede time to regroup, they prevented the enemy from running as the Cyrodiilic Legions beat the ever living s#*! out of them.

 

2; No, Ulfric doesn't. He's thoroughly blunt and overly direct through the entire Civil War. His ONLY moment of subtly is looking to the Bretons for aid, and that amounts to nothing. In fact, he also has limited control or oversight of his own supporters, one of which is entirely useless and another is using him to gain sovereignty. Ulfric's overly honorbound approach to things is a severe detriment.

 

3; Oh man... where to begin here... True, i don't think Ulfric would willingly aid the Thalmor in any way, but everything he has done has served their agenda, indicating that he's either under their sway, or easily manipulated. Either way, that makes him a pawn.

A; And was captured, and gave up crucial information during torture. That the Imperial City had already fallen and the information was no longer needed is beside the point.

B; He raised a fuss about something that wasn't even being enforced, directly drawing the attention of the Thalmor and allowing them access to Skyrim for the sake of treaty enforcement. And they attack Stormcloaks on sight because they are TRYING to rile up the Nords and encourage civil unrest.

C; The note does not, it states that he was hostile and that direct contact was to be discouraged. It also states that his whole 'Talos' thing was very useful and has assisted the Dominion's agenda.

D; He gave up information, and was convinced that said information was used in taking the City. There is no indication that he currently believes otherwise. In other words, he STILL likely thinks he's responsible for the Imperial City falling (and a guilt trip may explain some things). That type of information, because he believes it himself, is incredibly dangerous to his credibility as a leader.

E; Absolute fantasy. Why would a note in the possession of the Thalmor's top commander in Skyrim, inside her heavily fortified base of operations, be a fabrication to potentially throw off spies, when the Imperial and Stormcloak spies have already been shown to basically be incompetent. One might as well assume that the Dossier on the Dragons is entirely fabricated as well, and that the Thalmor ARE behind Alduin's return.

[monganfinn]

 

 

I do have to argue a bit for Hannibal´s sake here: the war in Iberia´s holdings of Karthago was unimportant in the grand scheme of things compared to Hannibal attacking Rome directly, or rather ravaging their main land.

Most scholars actually attribute the war in Iberia, and the resounding Roman dominance therein, as the reason Hannibal was eventually forced out of Italy and never took Rome. The constant pressure on Carthaginian holdings elsewhere, and constant victories, helped maintain the support of Rome's allies (Hannibal had counted on them abandoning Rome) and also ensured that Hannibal received none of the promised reinforcements from Carthage. Because of his need to remain constantly mobile to resupply, Hannibal was reliant on those reinforcements to replace heavier siege equipment lost over the Alps, which would have allowed him to assault Rome-Proper. In addition, it was the eventual collapse of Carthage's territories in Ibera which allowed Rome to pressure the city-state its self, and force Hannibal's eventual withdrawl. The Iberian side of the Second Punic War was what decided the entire conflict, whereas Hannibal, though he could win every battle and is the most famous element, was something of a sideshow.

 

Sure, but IMO Iberia was just the outward deciding factor at the end. What I´m trying to say is that IF Hannibal had succeeded in taking Rome, Iberia would have been unimportent. After all Carthago itself wasn´t threatened, they could have held out longer and send troops to Hannibal instead of trying to hold on to their silver mines in Iberia. Personally I attribute quite a bit to politics here, Rome was a nation of farmers at the time while Carthago was an ofshot of the Phoenician traders. Hannibal would have known of Pyrhuss and his "victory", unless the modern peoples opinion of him is really skewed I think he would have taken thinks like running out of money to pay his mercenaries into consideration. Rome was threatened and thus unified, Karthage wasn´t and thus the council there was all about personal profit leading to mismanagement. That´s my take on things, but that Iberia would have been unimportant IF Hannibal had succeeded in Italy is ... more of a fact XD - which is what I meant by grand scheme of things.

 

There is definitely an element to gameplay to be had here, but the numbers may not be as skewed as you think. Consider, we know Windhelm has been sacked at least 3 times in history. It's a relatively low altitude city with multiple landward approaches. It's heavily fortified, yes, but not impregnable.

 

Solitude, on the other hand, has only fallen once that we know of. After a month long siege. It's location alone is far more difficult to approach, and while it would be very vulnerable to sufficient explosives, Tamriel really lacks a way to threaten the city's foundation.

Your points would be valid if I or Rikke and Tullius would have been talking of winning the war or marching on Solitude, or Windhelm, but I talked of Whiterun and they talked of Whiterun. A city both factions had to walk to - even a similar distance. I admit that the Legion actually would have had to send less soldiers as they always are on the deffensive side of Whiterun, but afterwards they still had enough troops to assault 4 other hold capitals. Furthermore Tullius always wanted to station troops in Whiterun but Balgruuf denied him. Which IMO means the Imps from the beginning had the troops to spare!

 

On the other hand the Cloaks apparently at first didn´t have the troops to attack Whiterun, they were so few that the idea was a joke to Tullius ... and suddenly they did.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Legate_Rikke#Quest-related_events

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."

Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."

Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."

 

This piece of dialogue clearly shows that the Cloaks have a constant stream of recruits that builds up their forces, forces they didn´t have before because the rebellion was just starting. After escaping Helgen with Hadvar, if the player character asks who the other prisoners were at the beheading, he will say that Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King "a few months ago" - in 4E 201. Now Skyrim is in fact a giant country, I recently read the book "The Sage" and it took the protagonist several months to travel from Moonguard to Shorhelm (a distance comparable too Windhelm-Whiterun), so it would have taken time for the people to join the Stormcloaks - which is what I m arguing.

IMO at the battle of Whiterun the troop strength of both factions is similar, or perhaps the cloaks even have the advantage as they see no problem with attacking Whiterun, no matter if the Dovahkiin is with them or not, they think they can win. BUT at the start of the rebellion the cloaks were in vast minority - at least I hope so because otherwise the Empire´s intelligence network is truly hopeless! Not seeing a single problem Jarl amassing troops in the same amount as the Legions in Skyrim?!?!

 

This tells me 3 things:

-that Tullius at first managed to push back the cloaks isn´t that impressive as he had the vast advantage in numbers

-that the cloaks managed to rout the Legion before that on the other hand is impressive, however it might simply have been because of better preparation for sudden hostilities and morale

-that the cloaks could have won the war if the LDB never intervened in the Civil War, mind you I am not talking of the cloaks winning without Alduin attacking Helgen

 

I mostly agree with your answer to Padre86, as you can see from my own post above yours, but would like to point out some things:

-IMO what Padre wanted to point out is that the Dominion armies can be beat by the less magic inclined legions. Actually Skyrim even has a magical advantage over the Thalmor: the College of Winterhold allows the study of necromancy and I am sure that if push comes to shove, even if it is normally shunned in modern times, the Nords will remember all those draugr running around in the ruins and make use of them, whereas the Dominion won´t use necromancy because of their religion.

-at the end of the Civil War in the victory speech he also shows some subtle political moves: saying that he won´t crown himself High King unless the Moot says so is pure image painting as his dialogue with Galmar afterwards shows, furthermore by telling them he´ll attack "on foreign shores" he also keeps his troops on a warpath which is economically and moral wise important and still leaves open who he will attack! He also leaves Elisif as Jarl of Solitude, something I can only explain as another political move as now Elisif will be forced by his military in her city to vote for him in the Moot - which in turn cements his reign as more legitimate in the eyes of the Nords.

-the Nords were plenty succesfull over the centuries without political back stabbing, it´s not their forte and never will be. If he would be like that he wouldn´t garner that much support either.

-we don´t exactly know how the treaty was handled pre Markath Incident, but IMO the Talos temples across Skyrim would still have been closed since the Thalmor would have gotten wind of that otherwise and forced the issue another way.

-the Thalmor manipulate BOTH SIDES of the civil war! Not just Ulfric and the Nords alone, the Empire is playing into their hands just as much. If the Empire truly would have wanted to concentrate on the Dominion they could have let Skyrim leave and not bothered to waste troops there! But they didn´t, they want to hold onto their power over the remaining provinces and Skyrim is necessary for that. The Thalmor forced an issue where the Empire as an Empire wouldn´t ignore it and the Empire played into their hands by not ignoring it, just as much as Ulfric, the Imps perhaps less so but they aren´t without fault. There were plenty of ways to secure the support of High Rock, Morrowind and Skyrim in a alliance against the Dominion. Even Hammerfell could have been let off more gently, I mean srsly?? did Titus Mede really think that the Redguards would let the Dominion have half their land??!!

 

No matter how you dice it the Empire, no Cyrodiil always steps on the toes of the provinces!

How did they help the Redguards? A general defied orders and left some troops behind - excellent propaganda for the Empire!

How did they help Morrowind after the Red Year or against the Argonians/Hist - not at all as far as we know! Clearly they show their worth as a peacekeeping force and continent wide government on Tamriel!

And Skyrim? Well perhaps they should have reacted sooner before a militia takes back Markath? Or perhaps they/their subordinate Jarl Igmund shouldn´t have promised Ulfric free Talos worship and then went back on their word?

Valenwood? Elsweyr? Why didn´t they act as they still could push the Dominion off the mainland? Yes I know Summerset and Valenwood where coups but Elsweyr apparently was a civil war as well - why didn´t they act!?

 

And that´s just what the Mede Empire did wrong!

 

Titus Mede II migth be a good military commander/warrior but he and his predecessors obviously sucks at politics and foresight, and the Elder Council, ... well they are the Elder Council. When all my provinces run over to a sworn enemy I ready my army or at least try something to stop their advance. When someone comes to me with the heads of all my spies in his territory I don´t laugh him off because obviously the guy is better prepared than I for conflict! Emperors cant wage costly wars and then come out with nothing to show for it, even worse he actually capitulated on previously stated bad terms that are designed to alienate him from two very important provinces after a huge victory!! No matter if it was justified, its very bad for his image! At the least he should have abdicated so that people would be placated and have a slightly longer fuse under a new ruler. That he didn´t and that no one ever mentioned his children, that those children weren´t at Vicci´s wedding either, indicates to me that he doesn´t have any living heirs or none that are fit to take the ruby throne. In that case the Empire, no matter what happens in Skyrim, is finished as the civil war in Cyrodiil after Titus II´s death (either because of DB or old age) will tear apart the empire and make all of the provinces independent. - that´s how I see the Skyrim situation with different possible winners being resolved: "After Emperor Titus Mede 2nd death Cyrodiil fell into a civil war over the succession which resulted in every province gaining national souverainity."

 

And could actually please answer me my long standing question on the legion/legions in Skyrim? Are there 1 or 9?

[Rethrain]

A General (Or some Magister Militum if you are feeling Eastern Roman) commands Legates. One Legion per Legate. Every town has a Legate. If it follows earth ranks and numbers. But how close to earth's counterpart is anyone's guess.

[Padre86]

 

 

When Rikke says they´re going to attack Whiterun, Tullius dismisses her and says the cloaks dont have the numbers. In turn the Legion has no problem marching an army to Whiterun. So I dare say: the Imperial Legion far outnumbered the Stormcloaks at the beginning of the war.

 

There is definitely an element to gameplay to be had here, but the numbers may not be as skewed as you think. Consider, we know Windhelm has been sacked at least 3 times in history. It's a relatively low altitude city with multiple landward approaches. It's heavily fortified, yes, but not impregnable.

 

Solitude, on the other hand, has only fallen once that we know of. After a month long siege. It's location alone is far more difficult to approach, and while it would be very vulnerable to sufficient explosives, Tamriel really lacks a way to threaten the city's foundation.

 

Conventional military theory holds that you need between five and ten times the number of the defenders to take a city. And that's not considering rather weird geologic advantages like being hundreds of feet in the air.

 

The Stormcloaks would not have the numbers to storm Solitude. The losses would have been catastrophic, particularly considering that doing so wouldn't really diminish the Empires ability to counter attack from Cyrodiil. If we assume that a single legion held the city (so, approximately 6,000 men... Probably less, though, as the Imperials don't seem to use Auxillia) then Ulfric would require between 30 and 60 THOUSAND to storm it. It's only after bleeding the Legion, and capturing all it's supply and support lines, that Ulfric risks storming it.

 

 

 

A lot of things wrong with this post above. My counterpoints:

 

 

 

In regards to the first part of your post, what evidence is there that a full strength legion is currently in Skyrim, especially given the weak state of the Empire during the events of the game? Also, whatever Imperial force there is in Skyrim is spread out over much of the province, as indicated by the numerous Imperial camps and patrols, in order to try and maintain control. So whenever the Stormcloak assault on Solitude does happen, it's likely that the Imperial defenders have nowhere near the numbers that you claim they have.

 

As for your counterpoints, my response:

1) That's not what happened. The Nordic Legions, under General Ionna, linked up with the Hammerfell Legions, under General Decianus, and served to cut off the retreat of the Dominion forces at the Red Ring. The actually attack on the Imperial City was led by Titus Mede II, and comprised of the forces that had withdrawn from Cyrdoiil a year before. The Nords did not give Mede time to regroup, they prevented the enemy from running as the Cyrodiilic Legions beat the ever living s*** out of them.

 

Fine, it wasn't just Nordic swords and axes, but the Nord reinforcements played a crucial role in the eventual Imperial victory. Besides providing much needed manpower, if the Nordic Legions hadn't been there to block the Thalmor army from escaping the Emperor's trap, the Imperial victory may not have been so decisive or even happened at all, and the Great War may have taken an entirely different course. BTW, it wasn't just the Cyrodilic legions that beat the ever living s#$t out of the Thalmor. The Nordic legions engaged in bloody against the Thalmor forces coming from Bravil and Skingrad during the initial encirclement. And when the Thalmor attempted to retreat south from the Emperor's main attack, it was a Nordic shield wall that stopped them.

 

2) No, Ulfric doesn't. He's thoroughly blunt and overly direct through the entire Civil War. His ONLY moment of subtly is looking to the Bretons for aid, and that amounts to nothing. In fact, he also has limited control or oversight of his own supporters, one of which is entirely useless and another is using him to gain sovereignty. Ulfric's overly honorbound approach to things is a severe detriment.

 

Blunt and direct? You mean like how he won over the rulers of Markarth by providing timely aid when Forsworn rebels took over the city, or like how he challenged the High King to a duel to demonstrate that he was not fit to rule Skyrim, or like how he manages to win the Dovakin's allegiance (depending on the playthrough). He has been strategically playing many of the major powers and persons in Skyrim, which is why he was able to win over half of the holds at the start of the Civil War. Again, I'm not sure you and I were playing the same game. As for being overly honorbond, not sure what that means or how that is a disadvantage....he is a Nord. They are by their nature inclined to seek their objectives via honorable means.

 

3; Oh man... where to begin here... True, i don't think Ulfric would willingly aid the Thalmor in any way, but everything he has done has served their agenda, indicating that he's either under their sway, or easily manipulated. Either way, that makes him a pawn.

A; And was captured, and gave up crucial information during torture. That the Imperial City had already fallen and the information was no longer needed is beside the point.

B; He raised a fuss about something that wasn't even being enforced, directly drawing the attention of the Thalmor and allowing them access to Skyrim for the sake of treaty enforcement. And they attack Stormcloaks on sight because they are TRYING to rile up the Nords and encourage civil unrest.

C; The note does not, it states that he was hostile and that direct contact was to be discouraged. It also states that his whole 'Talos' thing was very useful and has assisted the Dominion's agenda.

D; He gave up information, and was convinced that said information was used in taking the City. There is no indication that he currently believes otherwise. In other words, he STILL likely thinks he's responsible for the Imperial City falling (and a guilt trip may explain some things). That type of information, because he believes it himself, is incredibly dangerous to his credibility as a leader.

E; Absolute fantasy. Why would a note in the possession of the Thalmor's top commander in Skyrim, inside her heavily fortified base of operations, be a fabrication to potentially throw off spies, when the Imperial and Stormcloak spies have already been shown to basically be incompetent. One might as well assume that the Dossier on the Dragons is entirely fabricated as well, and that the Thalmor ARE behind Alduin's return.

A) Torture is designed to make people to talk. You're going to use that as proof that he is a pawn of the Thalmor? He is a warrior Nord, but still a mortal...and no mortal is impervious to torture.

B) In some areas it was being enforced. Hence why you only see Talos preachers in certain cities. And why you see Thalmor patrols throughout Skyrim. I agree the Talos issue was a minor issue in and of itself, but it represented a crucial Thalmor victory over the Imperials and the Nords. The Thalmor were allowed to make demands and decrees upon the Empire, despite the fact that they were soundly defeated in the Great War. It was a psychological victory for the Thalmor and Ulfric, among many others in the Empire in general, were none too happy to cede that issue to them. If the Empire was willing to placate and kowtow to the Thalmor after the Great War, what would it be willing to do after the next great conflict?

C) Agreed, Ulfric was hostile because he has open hatred for the Thalmor. He is not willingly helping them. The only way that Ulfric can be considered a pawn of the Thalmor is that he is waging war against the Empire and distracting it from the Thalmor threat. But as someone else pointed out, by that definition the Emperor and General Tullius are also Thalmor pawns for the very same reasons. But also remember that the Thalmor don't want an outright Stormcloak victory either, and should Ulfric win and build up a strong, independent kingdom, I highly doubt that the Thalmor will still consider him to be a "useful pawn."

D) I've no idea if Ulfric is aware of how the Thalmor tricked him, I saw no indication of either outcome in the game itself. Even if he knows that his information was given up after the city fell, I think it's likely that Ulfric still feels guilty..He is a Nord...Nords aren't supposed to betray themselves or their allies to the enemy. Not sure how that proves your point, though it does indicate what kind of conscience and character Ulfric has.

E) It could be that the note on the Thalmor agent was intended to be planted....I said that it was a possibility, not a certainty. Look, its Tamriel. Subterfuge and underhanded play like that is definitely to be expected. I'm not putting all my eggs in that basket, so to speak, and its certainly not my strongest point, but all the same that kind of subterfuge can't be discounted.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Padre86

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

A.) Granted the point had to do with Ulfric not being useful to the Thalmor, it does make sense to use the fact that he gave up useful information as a counter to that point. So, regardless as to why it was true that he aided them by giving up information, he aided them by giving up information thus adding to the point of his usefulness to the Thalmor.

 

B.) "... I agree the Talos issue was a minor issue in and of itself..." Exactly. In fact, there are still Talos worshipers who side with the Empire, Legate Rikke being one of them so it was actually likely easier to get away with worshiping Talos prior to the Civil War which means his actions only truly serve civil unrest much like was pointed out before.

 

Also, "...After returning from imprisonment, all of his actions and commands have been focused on promoting the worship of Tiber Septim..." Not exactly. A lot of his actions and commands have been focused on his desire to be High King and promote unrest in Skyrim... the second thing being exactly what the Thalmor want.

 

C.) "...Agreed, Ulfric was hostile because he has open hatred for the Thalmor. He is not willingly helping them. ..." Irrelevant as his hostility and or willingness has nothing to do with whether he is a pawn or not. This isn't even a counter to anything as I am pretty sure that most people stating that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset are not arguing that he is willingly helping them. He's just too blinded by his own ambition to see that he is doing what they want him to do.

 

"...The only way that Ulfric can be considered a pawn of the Thalmor is that he is waging war against the Empire and distracting it from the Thalmor threat. But as someone else pointed out, by that definition the Emperor and General Tullius are also Thalmor pawns for the very same reasons...." This isn't true. Without the rebellion, there is no civil war in Skyrim and no immediate war with the Thalmor. Without the Empire, there would likely still be Civil War as Ulfric would have found another reason to justify why he should be High King and there most certainly would have been immediate war with the Thalmor.

 

So no, The Empire is not a pawn by responding to Ulfric breaking the law.

 

 

D.) I have no opinion either way on this.

 

E.) It's also possible that the note was written by and or a strategy of Tulius to cause people to lose faith in Ulfric... but so things are so improbable that you may as well say they are not the case. You ever hear that the simplest explanation is often the most likely? Well, with where the note was located it borders on absurd to think this was some attempt at underhanded play. And because of the 4th wall aspect of things, meaning the way games like this tend to be written, if it was intended to be planted and just wasn't it would have been told to us in some way.

 

Since this isn't the strongest of your points, it's just in your best interest to let E go.