Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Padre86]

 

I have to say though, it is funny that you accept part of the note as absolute truth but not the rest. That's awfully convenient, lol.

Either the note it is real or fake. If it is real, then Ulfric is not being identified as a willing asset (more likely his goals/ambitions are convenient for the Thalmor). If it is fake, then it doesn't detract from my original argument: that Ulfric is not consorting with the Thalmor.

How do you know Ulfric isn't already aware of the longterm threat posed by the Thalmor?

Because, he doesn't see that what he's doing helps the Thalmor. They knew he would be a bigger asset to them free rather than as a prisoner and they released him. He makes no mention to anyone of being aware of this.

I mean, for all we know, you guys are right and he is all about subterfuge and he is intentionally helping the Thalmor as the note implies. Though intentionally or not, his civil war benefits the Thalmor more than it benefits anyone else right now.

Two different issues at play here:

1) Whether Ulfric knows the Thalmor have identified him as an "asset" and manipulated him during captivity (the info derived from the torture and Imperial City falling). I agree its highly unlikely he is aware of that.

2) Whether Ulfric understands how civil strife in Skyrim might benefit the Thalmor cause. I believe that he does, perhaps an assumption on my part, but given his experiences in the Great War and and as a military/political leader, and the general ill will towards the Thalmor that is almost universal among the Nords, a fair one on my part.

But let's not pretend that this was the Thalmor's only avenue for trying to destabilize and weaken the Empire. It's not like they were basing all their plans on the hope that disgruntled Nord would return to Skyrim and start a civil war. If Skyrim stayed at peace, the Thalmor would have no doubt looked to other avenues.

Ulfric was their plan. They had him and then realized it would be to their best interest to release him. We could speculate as to what they would have done but we have no sources so take your own advice on that situation and drop it and focus on what we do know for sure.

They didn't have to come up with another way. Ulfric was that way and it's working out great for them.

The Thalmor have used and enacted other plans: hunting down and killing off the Blades (at least most of them); wiping out the Empire's intelligence sources in certain provinces; establishing Justicar patrols and Thalmor embassies throughout Skyrim and Imperial provinces to have eyes and ears on Imperial actions.

But my point was not to speculate on what other plans the Thalmor might have, but to illustrate that the Thalmor are not putting all their proverbial eggs in the Stormcloak Rebellion basket. If you think the success of the Thalmor plan is hinged on whether or not Ulfric can cause unrest in Skyrim, again you're making a huge assumption. We can all agree on the vague concept that a drawn out civil war in Skyrim benefits Thalmor ambitions and leave it at that.

As for Ulfric being used by the Thalmor as "bait" to attain the goal of a weakend Empire, like I said earlier I agree but it's a 2-way street. The only reason Ulfric serves a useful purpose as bait is if the Empire takes the bait.

The only way the killer gets what they want is if the police attempts to save the hostages. Yeah, both parties play a part but clearly one is more responsible and more a pawn than the other.

They released Ulfric so he would do what he did... so that the Empire would do what it is supposed to do. You don't blame the firefighters for trying to put out a fire even if that whole thing is a trap.

I send an arsonist to burn someone's house so that the person will rush inside to save their family, even though all are doing what I expect/want them to do, the only pawn is the arsonist because I set him in motion.

You're example doesn't do much to prove your point. In the arsonist example, the arsonist is the only pawn because he/she is the one who started the fire (which I'm guessing was your or the plotter's intent). The family and the firefighters did nothing to meet or not meet your intent, they simply reacted to it.

Both the Empire and the Stormcloaks are meeting the Thalmor's intent by fighting each other. If the Empire wanted, they could stop fighting, cede Skyrim to the Stormcloaks and focus purely on preparing for the Thalmor. Likewise for Ulfric. As we've already noted, both parties have other goals than simply preparing for a Thalmor attack. The Thalmor plan works because of Ulfric and his nationalistic pride and because of the Empire and its desire to maintain the status quo. Both parties' motivations are required to make this civil war happen.

Sorry, but you're really talking out of your butt here. You really think the Thalmor don't care who wins the Civil War? You think they want to see an independent Nordic Kingdom?

Let me explain this even clearer. The most desirable outcome for the Thalmor is for there to be no outcome. It would be the most ideal if the two sides continue to war all the way until the Thalmor decide to attack again. That is what would be best for their goal and they will do what they can to make sure that happens.

However, if there is to be a victor, it would be better if the Stormcloaks won for the obvious reason that I will explain again (assuming same reduction of troop strength regardless as to who wins):

Empire Victory - Skyrim and her forces still support the Empire and still will have support of the Empire's forces.

Stormcloak Victory - Neither Skyrim nor the Empire will have the other to rely on. United we stand, divided we fall. Divide and conquer (I cannot spell this word to save my life, lol. I keep wanting to put another "o" in there for some reason). If the Stormcloaks win, the Empire divides and it makes them easier to conquer as well as Skyrim.

You just don't want to drop it, huh? If we treat the Thalmor dossier/note on Ulfric as real, it states, in no uncertain terms, that the Thalmor don't want either side to win. And I've given several additional reasons why a Stormcloak victory does not bode well for the Thalmor plans. I'm not seeing you specifically address those points I made, but rather you prefer to rely on blind rhetoric.

Also this cliche on "united we stand, divided we fall" sounds nice on paper but needs a little bit of a reality check. A stormcloak victory will mean that Skyrim is independent of the Empire, but it doesn't preclude them from fighting in coordination with the Empire, and perhaps even other provinces, to defeat the Thalmor threat. Again, you're making assumptions that once Skyrim secedes, that disunity will allow the Empire and its former provinces to fall one by one. Has it ever occurred to you that while there is much strife and tension between the races and kingdoms of Tamriel, the threat of a racist, Aldmeri tyranny could possibly unite them into a common cause? To be fair, all of that is an assumption on my part, but It doesn't seem far fetched given that when imminent threats arose in the past Tamriel's disparate factions and kingdoms have been known to work together to deal with it.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric states very explicitly that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided, as is an imperial victory.

Yes, needlessly so since I already had this aspect covered.

Hopefully you and others will not miss it this go around and won't miss it here again:

If I'm Thalmor, I definitely prefer the Stormcloaks to win. I mean it would be most ideal for the war to rage on for awhile before either is able to claim victory but once the outcome happens it is definitely better for the Stormcloaks to win.

I'm not missing this point you keep trying to make, I just don't give it much credibility. It's your opinion, not a fact, that the Thalmor might prefer a Stormcloak victory, and you haven't done much to support your opinion at that. We know the Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks to win, don't want the imperials to win and prefer that the civil war go on indefinitely. Anything beyond that is speculation, perhaps with some logic and reasoning behind it, but still speculation.

I think that a Stormcloak victory will be bad for Thalmor plans for all the reasons previously listed (please feel free to address them specifically). But that as well is my opinion, not a fact.

You didn't do a very good job as the argument holds very little if any water.

History would disagree with you since divide and conquer is a tried and true tactic still used, not just militaristic, but in various other situations as well.

Empire win - Still together.

Stormcloaks win - Not together.

Try not to mistake a simple explanation for a bad one.

Your argument is bad because it relies on poorly supported assumptions and an overly simplistic explanation of how the Empire and other kingdoms might fight/deal with a Thalmor threat. This has been addressed in my previous response.

The note was vague, and Bethesda left it that way for a reason

I know the note called him an asset and not the Empire. That alone is very clear. Another thing, I know it specifically says they released him intentionally and talked about how he has benefited them and that they were able to approach him.

I mean, the note isn't nearly as vague as you're making it sound and actually explains a great deal without guessing.

Certainly far less to guess about on that front, then to try and guess the note was a fake and or planted or whatever.

Ulfric was a Thalmor prisoner. The Thalmor tortured him for information and released him. He was made to think that info he gave up led to the fall of the Imperial City. He was "contacted" but became unresponsive after the Markarth incident. Those are some of the facts we can derive from the note.

What did "contact" consist of?

Were the Thalmor communicating with him anonymously via a 3rd party?

Were they providing aid and resources to his rebellion?

Was the contact consisting of a justicar or agent who approached Ulfric to blackmail him on his imprisonment and torture?

Other than starting civil strife, how was Ulfric benefiting the Thalmor cause?

If Ulfric did know who he was dealing with, what kind of exchanges, if any, was he having with the Thamor agents?

If Ulfric was "contacted" and propositioned directly by the Thalmor, is it possible that he might have some idea of how the Thalmor are were trying to manipulate and/or use him?

There are a lot of unknowns with that dossier, which, for the 2nd or 3rd time, Bethesda did on purpose. The note was vague and intentionally so.

And if Ulfric was actually approached by Thalmor agents at one point, is it really safe to assume he is oblivious to how Skyrim's civil war might play into their plans? Do you really want to pretend that the man who coordinated and led a rebellion against the Empire is that dumb?

I've already addressed this. The fish has to take the bait in order for the bait to serve a purpose. Both parties (the Empire and Ulfric) play an active role in this.

Yes, they both do except Ulfric's active role is as the pawn/bait. Never said the Empire didn't have a role, I just said it was absurd to say they too were pawns. That makes little to no sense.

So please, move past the Empire having a role and move towards how merely having a role makes one a pawn. It doesn't, but that is what you should be trying to argue.

Not everyone with an active role in a play is the lead actor just because they're involved.

So having Ulfric released so that he can start a civil war in Skyrim makes him a pawn, but being intimidated and coerced into signing a treaty which will frustrate, or even incite, many of the Imperial citizens doesn't make the Emperor a pawn to Thalmor plans and ambitions?

I'm not hung up on the semantics. And I don't care what term/label you want to throw at Ulfric or the Empire. My point is there are actions by both parties that have played into the Thalmor ambitions. Enough said.

Didn't damage my point at all. The Empire knows the Thalmor pose a threat. Most Nords, including Ulfric, know the Thalmor pose a threat.

This wasn't about whether or not they see the Thalmor as a threat. Everyone knows they are a threat. This was about whether or not Ulfric realizes/knows that the civil war benefits the Thalmor. He makes no mention of this fact.

He makes no mention of knowing that the civil war is exactly what the Thalmor wanted.

Of course, if the note is to be believed, he intentionally doesn't mention this fact because he does know because this is actually his intent. I don't know so I won't argue that but I do know that he makes no reference to this fact while others do.

How much it helps them is irrelevant, it does help them. Period and it is in fact what they want. He never states this or even acknowledges.

So Ulfric fought in the Great War, was captured by the Thalmor, tortured for information. And he was released and became a power player in Skyrim, you think he's magically forgotten all of that and makes no connection whatsoever between Skyrim's civil war and Thalmor intentions?

I can buy that Ulfric has no idea of the dossier or how he might have been manipulated while imprisoned. But on a basic strategic and political level, even the dumbest of Jarls can quickly appreciate how civil strife, of any kind, might put the Thalmor in a better position, and Ulfric is by no means a dumb Jarl. Wasn't Ulfric, among others, suspecting the Thalmor of being behind the Dragon attacks in Skyrim? So he suspects that they might have instigated the Dragons to attack to create discord (which admittedly we all know is inaccurate) but for some reason you think he is oblivious to the fact that civil strife in Skyrim benefits the Thalmor cause?

I'm not sure what, if anything he says about this matter, but then again there is a lot left unsaid throughout the whole game on a whole bunch of issues. Assumption on my part, perhaps, but most Nords both hate the Thalmor and recognize the threat they pose. Why should Ulfric be any different?

Edited April 15, 2016 by Padre86

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I'm not going to argue with you anymore despite disagreeing with you as it is clear to me that there is nothing that can be said and or shown to you that you will accept as proof. You'll likely say the same applies to me and maybe it does, either way, this it is a waste of time to try to convince the other of anything as our minds are already made up.

 

Good day to you.

[monganfinn]

Noooooo! Now I have no one left here to debate with, what should I fill my time of procrastination with now?

 

: How do you know Ulfric isn't already aware of the longterm threat posed by the Thalmor?

Because, he doesn't see that what he's doing helps the Thalmor. They knew he would be a bigger asset to them free rather than as a prisoner and they released him. He makes no mention to anyone of being aware of this.

 

I mean, for all we know, you guys are right and he is all about subterfuge and he is intentionally helping the Thalmor as the note implies. Though intentionally or not, his civil war benefits the Thalmor more than it benefits anyone else right now.

 

Knowing that the Thalmor are along term threat =/= acknoledging the civil war helps them, and Ulfric clearly states that the Thalmor are a long term threat and his ultimate enemies.

Sorry, but you're really talking out of your butt here. You really think the Thalmor don't care who wins the Civil War? You think they want to see an independent Nordic Kingdom?

 

Let me explain this even clearer. The most desirable outcome for the Thalmor is for there to be no outcome. It would be the most ideal if the two sides continue to war all the way until the Thalmor decide to attack again. That is what would be best for their goal and they will do what they can to make sure that happens.

 

However, if there is to be a victor, it would be better if the Stormcloaks won for the obvious reason that I will explain again (assuming same reduction of troop strength regardless as to who wins):

 

Empire Victory - Skyrim and her forces still support the Empire and still will have support of the Empire's forces.

 

Stormcloak Victory - Neither Skyrim nor the Empire will have the other to rely on. United we stand, divided we fall. Divide and conquer (I cannot spell this word to save my life, lol. I keep wanting to put another "o" in there for some reason). If the Stormcloaks win, the Empire divides and it makes them easier to conquer as well as Skyrim.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric states very explicitly that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided, as is an imperial victory.

 

Yes, needlessly so since I already had this aspect covered.

 

Hopefully you and others will not miss it this go around and won't miss it here again:

 

If I'm Thalmor, I definitely prefer the Stormcloaks to win. I mean it would be most ideal for the war to rage on for awhile before either is able to claim victory but once the outcome happens it is definitely better for the Stormcloaks to win.

The loss of total life is pretty much the same, no matter who wins the civil war. So the total troop strength also is the same no matter who wins. So why would a independent Skyrim be good for the Thalmor? Because the Empire cannot recover as fast as before? They had 25 years to recover! That´s a whole new generation of soldiers and the provinces are fine on their own, over the long course of Tamrielic history the nations of Tamriel often were quite fine on their own. Reman built an empire from Cyrodiil, the Alessians did so too. IF the Mede are capable they would manage as well.

:

I know the note called him an asset and not the Empire.

And that dossier was about who again? Naturally they wouldn´t include others into that dossier. Who by the way should have been mentioned according to you? The empire as a whole? Titus Mede, Tullius, Elisif, Motierre, some unknown politicians? What about the Redguards? What about the Dunmer, Argonians, Khajiit, Bosmer, Orks, Bretons etc

We don´t have an Empire dossier, so claiming that the Empire, or rather certain persons within its administraton, arent assets because they arent listed in Ulfrics dossier ... means what? Nothing?

:

Not everyone with an active role in a play is the lead actor just because they're involved.

As for Ulfric being used by the Thalmor as "bait" to attain the goal of a weakend Empire, like I said earlier I agree but it's a 2-way street. The only reason Ulfric serves a useful purpose as bait is if the Empire takes the bait.

 

The only way the killer gets what they want is if the police attempts to save the hostages. Yeah, both parties play a part but clearly one is more responsible and more a pawn than the other.

 

They released Ulfric so he would do what he did... so that the Empire would do what it is supposed to do. You don't blame the firefighters for trying to put out a fire even if that whole thing is a trap.

 

I send an arsonist to burn someone's house so that the person will rush inside to save their family, even though all are doing what I expect/want them to do, the only pawn is the arsonist because I set him in motion.

 

No, but everyone is an actor in the director´s = Thalmor play. Face it, without WGC which was done by the Imps there wouldn´t be the Skyrim situation. The Empire was acted as the Thalmor wanted them too, just as much as Ulfric, because they acted as the Thalmor thought they would and took the bait

:

Of course, if the note is to be believed, he intentionally doesn't mention this fact because he does know because this is actually his intent. I don't know so I won't argue that but I do know that he makes no reference to this fact while others do.

Does the word "uncooperative" mean something to you? Srsly, the theory that Ulfric is an active Thalmor agent that grew out of that dossier is interestingly enough contradicted in the same dossier. Even several pro Empire players fully admit that he only helps them unintentionally!!

:

How much it helps them is irrelevant, it does help them. Period and it is in fact what they want.

Just as signing the WGC helped the Thalmor too. How much it helps them is irrelevant, it does help them. Period and it is in fact what they want.

He never states this or even acknowledges. - that the civil war helps the thalmor

How dumb do you think he would be to tell anyone he knows that fighting a civil war helps his enemies? He would be undermining his whole position. If he tells that to his people the rebellion would be over. We know that he sees the Thalmor as the major threat in the future, I posted enough dialogue of him to prove that. Anything else is speculation as I explained above he would be a horrendous fool to admit it to anyone that the civil war played into their hands.

Not sure how your explanation is saying a pawn isn't bait. Bait is manipulated onto a hook and manipulated into the water for the purpose of luring fish to being caught.

the sort of pawn we are talking about isn´t a chess pawn, and your fishing metaphor doesn´t hold either. IMO a pawn is something like an actor who acts according to anothers script: which means everyone who acts as the Thalmor want them to is their pawn! That includes Ulfric, Cloaks, Imps, Titus Mede who signed the WGC, and the list goes on all the way to the Khajiit! If the dragons and the LDB would act as they think, they too would be pawns! You cant srsly believe the Empire isn´t manipulated by the Thalmor either?? Do you srsly believe they expected Titus Mede to sign the treaty they proposed him when they came to him with the heads of the Blades? Do you srsly believe they didn´t include the Talos and Hammerfell clauses to split Redguards and Nords from the Empire? You cant argue that Ulfric is a pawn because he is manipulated and that everyone else who is manipulated just the same isnt a pawn. Dont just think on the scale of Skyrim and its civil war, all across Tamriel´s surface, people who act as the Thalmor want them too are pawns. This isnt a situation with two enemy chess players, its a situation where there is one chess player and his pieces try to get out of his grasp.

:

Ulfric was literally manipulated and released into the wild to do what they wanted him to do. That's the very definition of bait... which makes him a pawn.

And the Empire was literally manipulated through war to sign the WGC which made Ulfric useful in the first place.

:

The Thalmor didn't directly manipulate the Empire, they manipulated the Empire through Ulfric therefore he is the pawn.

Blades incident led to Great War, GW led to WGC, Empire was manipulated through force of arms/diplomacy/espionage. WGC led to Ulfric starting the Stormcloak rebellion. Ironically, if you say Ulfric would have rebelled to become High King anyway, he wouldn´t be a pawn of the Thalmor either, because according to your definition as he would just do what he wanted anyway.

Then again, if the note is to be believed, he does in fact know and is doing what he is doing intentionally for the benefit of the Thalmor. Not saying I believe that, just saying it is more of a possibility than some of the points you and others have tried to make as some of them have less of a basis to them than this note.

It isnt more of a possibility because the very note you refer to says otherwise. "uncooperative + dormant asset" You think they´d label him as such if he acted on their word or willingly in their interest?? And why did you change your opinion of the dossier for this one sentence yet in the rest of the thread you acknowledge that he isnt a thalmor agent?

even if that isn't in their more dominant traits.

and your opinion of his dominant traits would be based on what exactly? You dont have any source to base this on. You think its a bad move to divide the Empire and its manpower and thus you call him short-sighted, and I have no idea why you´d call him a bad politician? But did it ever occur to you that the "people" in universe have far more info than we do? That someone who actually fought the Dominion and was a member of the Legion actually knows more about it than you do? You can´t make such claims and cement them as proof of argument or reality, because they are just theories that might be contradicted in the next game or validated. It could very well be that a Hammerfell suddenly allies itself with Skyrim and the two make a pact with the dragons to fly them over to Alinor and they devastate the island! Galmar even speaks of getting aid from the dragons! And suddenly that undefeated fleet of the Dominion amounts to nothing. But that too is just a theory that might or might not happen. Fact is, from what we see happening ingame, Ulfric is the most capable politician of the province. (apart from Maven!)

subterfuge isn't his strong suit.

Again source? That he didnt see how his escape from prison was staged? Depending on how it happened he might have killed several lower ranked Thalmor that were sacrificed to make it convincing. Sure, if the door to his cell suddenly wasnt locked anymore he is an idiot for believing to have escaped by himself. In the above scenario not so much.

And arrogant because he believes in his own abilities? IMO someone is arrogant if he takes self confidence too far and overestimates himself. We dont know enough about his "escape" to be able to judge him on this, furthermore a single instance of overestimating himself because Elenwen made him believe to be capable of it isnt ground enough to call him arrogant as a whole.

That he was captured simply means that his intelligence network isnt as good as the Legions, a problem yes, but no insurmountable one. High Kings like Hoag Merkiller, Wulfhard, Olaf One-Eye etc didnt have a good intelligence division either I suspect. Was it a problem for them? Not really. And calling out Ulfric on being bad at subterfuge because his intelligence network is lacking, then what of Titus Mede? The Blades were all killed off as well, the Penitus Occulatus was outsmarted by the Black Brotherhood, all of it planned by elements of the Elder Council.

We do know what they want. They want their opponents to be weaker. Divide and conqueor. Standard ancient and still widely used strategy.

A strategy which, under certain circumstances, is totally not applicable to a world where gods lay dormant while others walk the stars, invasions of mythic proportions devastate incredible civilizations and Heroes walk among them.

Divide and conquer, do the Thalmor really want to conquer Tamriel? Perhaps they simply want to keep the Empire weak so they can reconstruct the Numidium? In that case the Imps strategy of slowly rebuilding is just playing into their hands, because in that case the Dominion needs to be attacked NOW!

The Thalmor engame is unkown! In fact merely conquering them certainly isn´t the goal, the Thalmor always wanted to return to a pre Convention state. I wouldn´t know what ruling over other races would serve them to that goal.

And calm down, lol. This is a game my friend and it won't change regardless as to our discussion. It's one thing for some light jabs here and there but no need for so many caps. I don't want any blood vessels bursting over this.

no worries, but sometimes I feel like I repeat arguments several times and want to bring some points across. If I cap, underline etc something its simply because its an important point.

It could be seen as speculation, but unfounded, no. There's plenty of foundation from history to common military strategy to logic. (which you can say their logic is different from ours but I have yet to see them really think differently from us (I mean releasing Ulfric is exactly something we would do and have done in various situations) so...)

Again: WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE THALMOR THINK AND OUR "LOGIC" DOESNT APPLY!!

 

To the last point: 1st of all, sorry! Secondly, I spoke of what logic would dictate, humans don´t act logically, our actions arent based on math and emotions always play a role, otherwise we would be machines. Because only machines dont have that emotional baggage that makes us human.

The point I wanted to make is that 1st, what might appear logically, to us as detached observes, might be seen totally differently in in-universe. The Empire´s reaction to the civil war and human actions in general cannot be reasoned with logic all the time. Think of animals if the example with humans is too insulting for you, a mother mouse would discard her kids if a snake enters her burrow, to save herself and guarantee the birth of the next generation - that is logic. Attacking the snake and dying in vain isnt logic. Depending on how much sentience you say mouses have you´d speak of emotion driven actions. Saving your loved ones at the price of both of your lives, there is no logic behind that action. What purpose does it serve?

 

So yes, if you argue that the Empire´s actions is based on logic, than you just gave Ulfric a hefty boon. Because if you would have paid notice to my last sentence, youd have noticed that I wrote that Ulfric doesnt follow logic, he acts out of emotion. He is the "idiot" who´d rather die fighting and free.

You once compared the factions to the red oni = emotion and the blue oni = logic, then isn´t the Empires logical response to the Thalmor incredible insulting according to your own words?

 

Wasn't Ulfric, among others, suspecting the Thalmor of being behind the Dragon attacks in Skyrim? So he suspects that they might have instigated the Dragons to attack to create discord (which admittedly we all know is inaccurate)

Interestingly enough this is a wide spread opinion among the people in Skyrim, Delphine too immediately assumes that the Thalmor are controlling the dragons. Though as a Blade she should know better, no mere mortal can control a Dovah! Funny thing: Hadvar believes the cloaks to have called the dragon, something Galmar actually wants to turn into a reality. Yet he adds: "We wouldn´t be able to fully trust a dragon anyway." - enter the Dragonborn XD

[Rethrain]

I'm not going to argue with you anymore despite disagreeing with you as it is clear to me that there is nothing that can be said and or shown to you that you will accept as proof. You'll likely say the same applies to me and maybe it does, either way, this it is a waste of time to try to convince the other of anything as our minds are already made up.

 

Good day to you.

 

Don't worry Smith. I had the same debate before, which is why I didn't bother at all this time around. It's a dance in circles. So, it's a waste of time. I would be lying if I wasn't smug when those two started.

 

Oh, and you'll live, Finn.

[Padre86]

I'm not going to argue with you anymore despite disagreeing with you as it is clear to me that there is nothing that can be said and or shown to you that you will accept as proof. You'll likely say the same applies to me and maybe it does, either way, this it is a waste of time to try to convince the other of anything as our minds are already made up.

 

Good day to you.

 

If you actually addressed the points I made, like I did for yours, we get somewhere more productive. As it stands, your interpretation of Ulfric being a brash, direct, easily manipulated, ignorant servant of the Thalmor just strikes me as contrary to what Ulfric actually said and did in the game.

 

Also remember that this Thalmor dossier, which seems to be the basis of your argument, is the product of Thalmor intelligence gathering....intelligence, by its nature, is what someone believes to be true or accurate, though that doesn't necessarily mean it is 100% accurate.

 

If you want to leave the conversation though, that 's totally your choice. Opinions vary, and everyone has an opinion.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

You're free to believe whatever you want about whether you addressed something or not, about the points of views of others, whether something is fact or opinion, etc, etc. That is entirely your choice.

 

That's why I presented no argument in my final post to you. You got the last word against me and you trying to continue to belittle my posts and/or incorrectly solely lay blame at me for a lack of production in this topic won't cause me to argue with you any longer on this as it is clear that our minds are made up.

 

Good luck to you.

 

And Monganfinn, thank you for the chat. You made some good points and helped me learn about certain aspects I didn't know/realize before. You also gave me another way of looking at certain things and some nuggets to think about, but we have come to the point where there is nothing else for us to gain either.

 

We've come to the point where the only thing(s) left is/are what I cannot be convinced of otherwise so our further discussion would prove unproductive. Good luck to you.

[monganfinn]

You know, it is kind of ridiculous that we truly never seem to be able to agree on anything within this topic. Still, I propose we do continue this but change our avenue. Instead of mindlessly, or with a lot of thought, throwing posts and comments at each other, how about we throw speculation, theories, opinions etc over board for once and instead come up with a comprehensive "report" on the subject both factions can agree on.

 

A report which is entirely, or as much as possible, only based on what the game and the lore present us with. Those sources might not be faultless either, nor does it give us a complete overview, but it´s the closest to it we have.

 

No "what ifs" and no predictions for the future. No speculations if the Empire could win if united, or if the Cloaks could do it with an alliance.

No theories without sources, so the source can be discussed and interpreted.

 

I believe we have to break this whole topic down into its basic parts, because otherwise we seem to only the same stuff at each other and only ever repeat the same arguments we always if ever only partly agree on. So, for now, no speculation about intentions or hidden plots, lets figure out what truly happened since the Thalmor reared their ugly head after the Oblivion Crisis. I would like to go that far back because incidents like the formation of the Dominion are of importance to what happened later on.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

For example, I´ll start with the Markarth Incident:

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Markarth

In 4E 174, while the Empire was distracted by the Great War with the Aldmeri Dominion, the natives seized the Reach with little resistance and broke away from Skyrim to form a short-lived independent kingdom with Markarth as its capital.^[5]Ulfric Stormcloak gathered a militia and toppled the natives in 4E 176, reestablishing Nordic dominance over the Reach.^[5] Desperate and alienated in their own lands, the natives began to call themselves the Forsworn and turned to their ancient traditions and rituals for help to rebel against the Nords. The Forsworn continue to wage a guerrilla war in the Reach as of 4E 201.^[3]

 

Now that´s what everyone knows and agrees on, the major point that is to be discussed is the book "Bear of Markath" by the Imperial Arrianus Arius, who also wrote this book defending the Forsworn: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_%22Madmen%22_of_the_Reach

Bear of Markarth

"Ulfric Stormcloak is considered a hero by many for his part in quelling the Forsworn Uprising. It is said that when the Empire abandoned Skyrim, and the natives of the Reach rebelled (undoubtedly due to the Nords [sic] poor treatment of them), Ulfric Stormcloak and his militia was there to retake "their" land from the Forsworn. In all the bravado and epic yarns the skalds compose of his exploits, you would think Ulfric to be a giant of a man, equal to that of Tiber Septim in his cunning, leadership, and decisive actions.

But the truth is far more revealing. Yes, from 4E 174-176, the Forsworn did in fact rule over the Reach as an independent kingdom from Skyrim. Yes, this was accomplished while the Empire was beset by Aldmeri Dominion forces and could not send the Legion to re-establish order. And yes, Ulfric Stormcloak did quell the rebellion without Imperial assistance. That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.

True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.

In the wake of the aftermath of the Great War, you can imagine the backlog on stately matters the Empire had. Before a peace treaty could be resolved with the Forsworn, a militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak sieged the gates of their capital, Markarth. What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer."

 

-The accusation of war crimes in BOLD and Red:

As I pointed out above the author of the two books listed is quite a defender of the Forsworn, and while his account is quite destructive to Ulfric´s reputation and causes many arguments among the community Arrianus account simply has several key points which don´t fit when you take other sources into account. Such as:

 

Madanach: " "There's a man named Braig inside these mines. Besides me, he's been here the longest." -(How come he is alive in the first place if Ulfric had everyone killed? Well I guess the Silver-Bloods could have smuggled him aside. But that too suggests that Igmund and his original Nordic Reach nobles had quick access to the city)

 

Quote of Braig, a Cidnah Mine prisoner in 4E 201:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000e1623

"I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade. ... But my little Aethra didn't want to see her papa leave her. She pleaded to the Jarl to take her instead. ..." - the girl was decapitated in front of her father.

201-23 year old daughter = she was born in 178! That´s two years after the sack of Markarth by Ulfric.

 

Ulfric became Jarl quite some time after the sack of Markarth, when his father died during his imprisonment. So there is little reason for him to be called Jarl by a prisoner who spend all the time inside the mine since the sack. I am quite sure that those two points were a hint by the devs and not an oversight. On the other hand...

 

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Igmund#Igmund

"Igmund succeeded as Jarl of Markarth at a young age in 4E 176,..." - the year of the Markarth Incident.

Add to that that Igmund´s father was killed by the Forsworn either shortly after the sack of Markarth by Ulfric or during the Forsworn Uprising itself, (I can´t find Igmund´s relevant dialogue atm) and everyone who spoke to him knows how he hates the Forsworn.

 

What has Madanach to say about the sack:

"I had Markarth. My men and I drove the Nords out. We had won, or so we thought. Retribution was swift. I was captured, quickly tried, and sentenced to death. But my execution never came. Thonar Silver-Blood stopped it." - No mention of Ulfric at all.

 

Also: http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Forsworn

"Although Jarl Igmund claimed that the leaders of the Uprising refused their offers of peace, according to Arrianus no such offer was ever made, ... "

 

My conclusion is that it is very doubtful if Ulfric truly committed any crimes of war in the Markarth Incident. At the very least we have no proof whatsoever and the only one mentioning it is Arrianus whose account is to be doubted because:

-he clearly favours the Forsworn

-when you go to Markarth there are some old Reachmen shop owners living there, the owner of the alchemy shop comes to mind, so clearly not everyone was killed

-somehow Braig´s daughter and he as well somehow survived the purges made by Ulfric Arrianus tells us about, and then we learn that it is Igmund who is executing people for s#*! and giggles.

 

-The Talos Clause in BOLD and Green:

 

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Forsworn

In 4E 176, desperate to retake the Reach, and with no Imperial Legions available due to the Great War, Skyrim enlisted the aid of a Nord militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak to retake the Reach by promising them free worship of Talos. In that year, the Nord militia successfully drove the Reachmen from the city of Markarth and reclaimed the Reach on behalf of Skyrim.^[5] Although Jarl Igmund claimed that the leaders of the Uprising refused their offers of peace, according to Arrianus no such offer was ever made, as Ulfric Stormcloak not only had anyone associated with the Forsworn executed after they surrendered, but also had anyone else executed without regard to race, age or gender if they had failed to assist the Nord militia in its campaign against the Forsworn.^[5]

When the Imperial Legion and the Thalmor finally returned to the region, they discovered the Talos worship. Igmund was forced to arrest Ulfric and his men or risk outright war over religious conflict. The Stormcloaks were eventually allowed to leave, but Igmund's broken promise left a fissure that would eventually widen into the Stormcloak Rebellion.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Igmund#Igmund

His father, Hrolfdir, was killed by the Forsworn. Prior to his death, Igmund's father and the Empire established a Nord militia that included Ulfric Stormcloak in order to re-secure control of Markarth, offering the militia the freedom to worship Talos in exchange for regaining control of Markarth from the Forsworn, a promise which could not be kept once the Thalmor objected. Igmund succeeded as Jarl of Markarth at a young age in 4E 176, following in his father's footsteps in siding with the Imperial Legion, and he continued the fight against the Forsworn for the next twenty-five years.^[5]

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ulfric_Stormcloak

When Markarth was returned to Imperial control, the free worship of Talos there was officially permitted, a condition Ulfric demanded before he agreed to cede control of the city.^[7] Until then, the Imperial Legion had been largely ignoring Talos worship in Skyrim, but the Thalmor used the opportunity Ulfric provided to demand rigid adherence to the Concordat, and the Empire ultimately reneged on the agreement with Ulfric.^[7][9][10] Thus the incident was a key factor in bringing about the Stormcloak Rebellion.

 

Important points in bold and underlined:

 

While Arrianus makes it sound as if Ulfric came by himself there occupied the city and then only "forced" the arriving Legion to allow Talos worship in the city, every other account makes it sound as if Hrolfdir and perhaps even the Empire or the High King recruited the militia, back then not yet called Stormcloaks, and promised them free Talos worship in advance to taking Markarth.

So when he didn´t immediately hand over Markarth it was more him not wanting them to go back on their word and having them say it again. Something that obviously went over quite quickly as everything happened in a single year and Arrianus writes that Ulfric´s war crimes were still going on when the Legion arrived.

 

Is there really someone here who believes that the Legion would make such promises as free Talos worship after WGC simply because someone is butchering some rebelling commoners? The same Legion who said: "Damn the list, he´s going to the block!" or tortured innocent Quey because wasabi suddenly grew on their island and no one understood how? Or slaughtered large populations of of Quathnoquey because Uriel was paranoid?

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3ivdzp/what_exactly_is_wasabi/

(I swear I saw the Wasabi Run text once directly, but can´t find the link anymore. If it´s not real, please tell me.)

 

My conclusion is that Igmund and his father hired Ulfric and a militia with the promise of free Talos worship to regain their hold and position of Jarl quicker than if they would have waited for the Legion to arrive - done so out of simple greed. Finally even the Legion acknowledged it official proclamation. That is until the Thalmor reared their ugly head and then everyone who he fought for simply betrayed Ulfric and imprisoned him.

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

All in all Ulfric took Markarth for Igmund and his father because they bought him with the promise of Talos worship, something they may have known would never fly. That we don´t know. Either way the claim that Ulfric committed war crimes is to be doubted. WE DO KNOW THAT IGMUND COMMITTED CRIMES! As such it appears more believable to me that the war crimes after the sack, if any happened at all, also were carried out by Igmund, his father, or the Silver Bloods. The later may or may not have been among Ulfric´s militia but we have no believable link to Ulfric having done anything untoward here. Not to mention he wasn’t arrested for any war crimes, and the Bear of Markarth claims he put ANYONE to the sword who didn’t stand with him, Nords included? You´d think this would have made more waves among the Nords.

Please niptick and tell me your opinions.

 

This is my take on the Markarth Incident, I´m going to systematically go through the different topics and hope others will do so to. The goal is to sort out where the differences between the supporter factions are and address them more precisely than in general - you are wrong and I am right discussions.

Hopefully we will come up with at least some points we can all agree on.

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I left out all the matters with the Forsworn as they have no direct place here. So please dont counter with arguments like the Forsworn are poor oppressed people or that the Cloaks are hypocrites for not allowing them their freedom when they cherish their own so much.

 

So please ignore the following in context with our original debate, I just felt like writing it even if it isn´t directly relevant.

 

I don´t buy that the Forsworn are natives of the Reach, we see countless ancient Nordic structures across the Reach. All dating older than the Alessian Empire which first subjugated the Forsworn in the 1E:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Legend_of_Red_Eagle

 

For example Reachwater Rock, which was Gauldur´s tower. Gauldur lived at the same time as High King Harald.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lost_Legends

... or Ragnvald and others. Not to mention that the Dwemer also dwelled in the Reach. King Harald is accredited with having conquered ALL of Skyrim (Dwemer don´t count because they are subterranean) so the Reach should be included here.

 

When High King Vrage established the Nordic Empire after 1E 222, there is no mention of the Reachmen. However in 1E 355 the Aldmer clan Direnni starts conquering large swaths of High Rock and western Skyrim = the Reach! until they are defeated in 1E 498 and High Rock´s Bretons gain independence from them. I believe the birth of the Bretons from human slaves of the Direnni is not questioned as well? So is it a stretch to say that the Reachmen are the left over human slaves of the Direnni when the Aldmer were driven out of the Reach?

 

And in 1E 1030 Empress Hestra conquers the Reach, killing Faolan, the Red Eagle.

 

The Red Eagle legend is interesting because it mentions the "old and venerable Hagravens", and in Skyrim the Hagravens are something that according to the Forsworn, " The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning". And yet ESO tells us that the Hagraven transformation magic came to Skyrim in 1E 369 with the Wild Hunt that killed High King Borgas. Thus I very much doubt the claim of the Reachmen to truly know the history of the Reach.

From then on the oppression of the Reachmen through the Empire begins, until Tiber Septim has the Reach join the Nord ruled Skyrim. Plenty of time passed to let the belief grew in former slaves with little to no own culture to be the natives of the Reach! So no, the Reachmen aren´t Reach natives, they came over from High Rock in the form of Direnni slaves.

 

The exact roots of the Bretons and thus Reachmen aren´t known, they could be tribes of Nedes, Atmorans of pre Ysgramor times or even captured survivors of Saarthal. The only account of native humans = Nedes in Skyrim is Lamae Beolfag and her story - 1E year unknown. The author calls her and her people "nomadic Nedic tribes" and even that is dubious as we know that Nedes and Atmoran Nords are often mixed when they shouldn´t. However the names mentioned clearly aren´t Nordic so probably they really were Nedes.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lamae_Bal

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie

 

Who knows what the Falmer did to those Nedic tribes though?

[Lachdonin]

Let's be clear about something. A commander does not have to issue the order to be responsible for War Crimes committed by his forces. Knowledge of the action, and a failure to act in its prevention (successful or not) is sufficient to be found guilty.

 

Regardless of differing accounts and opinions, it is undeniable that Ulfric commanded a force that retook Markarth from the Reachmen in 4E176. That same force, whether under Ulfric's order, Ingmund's or their own volition, engaged in activities which are described as War Crimes. Specificity, the violence against a civilian population.

 

Ulfric's presence at the time the Thalmor objected to the failure to enforce the Talos Ban indicates that Ulfric was still present in the area. This means he had to be aware of what was being done (if he wasn't, well... that's not a resounding indication of his mental faculties). There is no indication, from ANY source, that he objected, opposed or otherwise tried to prevent the force he had assembled from committing the actions accused of them.

 

Men have been executed for War Crimes with a less direct association to the act. And under current law, Ulfric WOULD be found guilty of War Crimes. That is, of course, assuming the standards for a War Crime in the real world apply. Tamriel's seen some really heavy s#*! and no one's been taken to task for it before (hell, Tiber became a god for unleashing a literal crime against nature on the Altmer, and the Nords exterminated most of an entire race) so it's unclear what actually constitutes a War Crime.

 

Braig's testimony is also dubious, for several reason. For one, he never indicates a place of residence. We know Ingmund had pressured Reachmen throughout the region, not just in the city, following the Rebellion. Second, the fact that his time-table does not line up with any other source casts doubt on his memory. Third, he's been in prison for a protracted period, something which, particularly under the conditions they are kept, has been known to affect an individuals concept of time.

 

Finally, a note about the Reachmen, the Nedes and the Nords. It is still unclear how Men came to spread across Tamriel, and whether the Nedes are a decent group from the first wave of Atmorans, native to Tamriel, or something else entirely (see theories on the Bird Men of Cyrodiil). That is clear is that the Reachmen and the Proto-Nords existed within the area of the Reach before the founding of the nation of Skyrim. Who came first isn't clear, but the Reachmen certainly existed there before Skyrim, or any Empire, had claim over the region. That would make their situation very much like the Palestinians. They've always been there, and other nations have claimed authority over their homes at various periods throughout history.

[MidbossVyers]

About "crimes against nature", ES lore actually shows that oftentimes "crimes against nature", or more accurately, "crimes against the natural status quo" end up being beneficial or at the very least progressive to the universe itself. For example, Sithis committed a "crime" against Anu and ended up creating the template for creation, Lorkhan committed a "crime" against the other gods and ended up creating humans and the physical world, and Molag Bal committed a "crime" against Arkay... Actually, never mind about that last one, as that sparks another debate entirely. Still, 2/3 "crimes" were beneficial for universal progress, and 1/3 is... At the very least, debatable. I haven't play Skyrim in a while, so I apologize if any terminology is screwed up.

[monganfinn]

 

A commander does not have to issue the order to be responsible for War Crimes committed by his forces. Knowledge of the action, and a failure to act in its prevention (successful or not) is sufficient to be found guilty.

Men have been executed for War Crimes with a less direct association to the act. And under current law, Ulfric WOULD be found guilty of War Crimes. That is, of course, assuming the standards for a War Crime in the real world apply. Tamriel's seen some really heavy s*** and no one's been taken to task for it before (hell, Tiber became a god for unleashing a literal crime against nature on the Altmer, and the Nords exterminated most of an entire race) so it's unclear what actually constitutes a War Crime.

A commander has to issue the order or knowingly ignore the crimes, otherwise we would have lots of state heads who are supreme commanders accused of war crimes. I agree that the immediate commander of the soldiers committing the crime should have to prevent it, but that´s RL topics which IMO have no place in a semi medieval Skyrim.

 

In medieval times and before the sack of a city is a gently term for large scale pillaging, rape and torching. Does anyone accuse Alexander the Great of war crimes because he burned down Persepolis??

 

IMO in Tamriel the term "war crimes" is little more than propaganda. There are mentions of them ESO and several history books. Interestingly when Uriel slaughters scores of the Quey no one is screaming war crimes. I at least never of a charter that limits war fare in TES, otherwise I would think the use of necromancy is considered a war crime too.

 

Anyway, that argument won´t lead us anywhere as there is no information on it. Thus claiming that Ulfric would be would be found guilty of war crimes is premature and without basis.

 

That same force, whether under Ulfric's order, Ingmund's or their own volition, engaged in activities which are described as War Crimes. Specificity, the violence against a civilian population.

Our only source that war crimes happened with Ulfric present at all is Arrianus. His account is doubtful as posted above and he is a clear Forsworn sympathizer and casts the Legion in a very good light.

 

Furthermore it is contradicted in other matters such as the Talos clause of Markarth, he claims Ulfric pressured the Legion officials into granting him the right to worship from atop Markarth´s walls, whereas everyone else, including Igmund, claim that the militia´s service was bought with the right to worship Talos before the battle. If you believe Arrianus however the Legion "had no choice because the bodycount in the city kept rising".

 

Bothela, the owner of the alchemy shop in Markarth, is judging by her face paint and dialogue a Reachwoman, she is old enough to have lived during the sack and she doesnt mention any war crimes or anything else. Even though her nephew is in prison because of him being a forsworn! If most or anyone who was in the city was killed, Id have expected anyone to talk of it - no one does, not even Reachmen or Forsworn and Bothela who, if she lived in markarth at that time, would have lived through it is alive!

 

- since when does the Legion care for the body count? "He isn´t on the list? Off with his head!" or Quey massacre and "misunderstandings" happen in Helgen too.

 

Igmund even claims that he gave the Reachmen the chance to lay down their weapons, another thing that Arrianus doesnt mention. IMO there isn´t any reason for Igmund to lie as no one would expect him to do actually give them that chance, he had no reason to nor was he obligated to do so.

All these points cast a shadow of doubt on the book Bear of Markarth, and with that it is doubtful any war crimes or rather excessive force against civilians happened at all.

 

Ulfric's presence at the time the Thalmor objected to the failure to enforce the Talos Ban indicates that Ulfric was still present in the area.

There is no indication, from ANY source, that he objected, opposed or otherwise tried to prevent the force he had assembled from committing the actions accused of them.

Yes to the first point, but srsly what kind of power would he have had to stop it if Igmund orders his own soldiers to do so?

The second point: perhaps he was in prison himself already? Or no war crimes happened at all. And there couldn´t be any indication that he objected to the war crimes as no other source mentions war crimes in the sack of Markarth, the only guy who also talks of the sack itself - carriage driver posted above, only speaks of Ulfric´s thuum.

 

For one, he never indicates a place of residence. We know Ingmund had pressured Reachmen throughout the region, not just in the city, following the Rebellion.

To lazy to look it up right now but I believe never to have claimed he was involved in the sack of Markarth. If I did sorry, didnt meant to.

 

... his time-table does not line up with any other source casts doubt on his memory.

His time table matches up wonderfully if you wouldn´t assume that he was in Markarth during the sack, no one claims that. On the contrary, Madanach says Braig is the longest inmate after himself! Thus Braig wouldn´t have been there since the sack but only imprisoned later on. And then his time table of his daughter being born 2 years post sack suddenly makes perfect sense. After all his daughter wouldn´t have been able to speak "dont take away my father take me instead" if she was just born. Cidnah Mine has contact to the outside, so they would have been able to keep track of time. If Braig can say his daughter would be 23 years this year in 201 and the sack of Markarth happened 25 prior, then Occam´s Razor, as problematic he is in TES, says that neither Braig nor his daughter were in Markarth during the sack. On the contrary if they were in Markarth during the sack and he survived and his daughter was killed on Igmund´s orders only because of her plea, than that is an indication that there were no war crimes done during the sack! as otherwise the two would be dead when Igmund is let into the city later on by Ulfric.

 

Please dont misunderstand me, I didnt put forth Braig as example that Igmund committed the war crimes in Markarth but that Igmund is willing to commit crimes against humanity as we would understand them, whereas we only have a vague mention of some massacre in Karthwasten claiming that Ulfric is willing to do them. I would like to point out that Karthwasten is the village you push the Silver Blood mercenaries out from the mine, rather than Cloaks acting under Ulfric´s orders to wantonly kill people how about the Silver Blood´s pressuring the Reach detachment of Cloaks into the massacre, with or without Ulfric´s knowledge cannot be known. Either way there are also mentions of drunk legionnaires killing civilians - Vex!

 

To conclude:

Braig´s time table matches if he was sentenced after the sack, nothing indicates he was imprisoned during the sack.

 

The argument that his memory is failing isnt based on ingame sources nor on lore (no mention that the prisoners in cidnah mine tend to forget things) so its pure speculation and Iam viewing it as a non factor because otherwise we leave the realm of a discussion based on hard sources and enter the realm of pure speculation and could be-s.

 

I countered all you points but please dont further derail from the guidelines I set up above, some can be argued but others like what constitutes a war crime in TES cannot be argued for lack of sources. Cant stop you but I wont counter them anymore as otherwise we will enter a giant grey area again that we cannot debate because of lack of info.

 

The question my original post opened is:

Did any war crimes happen in Markarth?

I say it cannot be proven and thus shouldnt be made a major point in CW discussions, a scholar who came to the city later claims so, anyone else who was there doesn´t mention it, what we experience ingame contradicts it - not the first example of imperial propaganda.

 

End CW topic:

 

 

It is still unclear how Men came to spread across Tamriel, and whether the Nedes are a decent group from the first wave of Atmorans, native to Tamriel, or something else entirely

Not my point exactly, but the quote from MK or another dev "Nedes =/= Atmorans, its propaganda of a bygone regime" is quite clear IMO.

 

That is clear is that the Reachmen and the Proto-Nords existed within the area of the Reach before the founding of the nation of Skyrim.

Yes, before the founding of modern Skyrim during Tiber Septim´s reign.

 

Who came first isn't clear, but the Reachmen certainly existed there before Skyrim, or any Empire, had claim over the region.

IMO wrong, the first nordic empire clearly also encompassed the Reach. Harald is accredited with having conquered all of Skyrim and we see ancient nordic ruins in both Falkreath and the Reach, two regions traditionally rather associated with the Colovian estates and the Forsworn. So clearly the ancient Nords had control over all of present day Skyrim. Even the Dwemer were chased from Skyrim following the Aetherium wars by the Nords for a time. We do not hear of Harald conquering any human tribes.

 

It is after the fall of the Nordic Empire due to the war of succession that other forces began to enter Skyrim. This is the crux of my argument:

The Direnni were known slavers - thats after all how the Bretons came to be. And they ruled for some time after the fall of the Nord Empire over western Skyrim, namely the Reach. I believe the Forsworn are the former slaves of the Direnni taken with them into Skyrim or having spilled over from High Rock following the fall of the Direnni.

 

There is no mention of the Forsworn prior to the conquest of Hestra several centuries? after the Direnni left Skyrim! None of the Songs of the Return mention humans in the land inhabited by Dwemer and Falmer. The Snow Prince also says nothing of them. However when the Nordic Empire expanded they got into High Rock and lo and behold they are astounded about the "manmeri" = Bretons, why being astounded about other humans outside of Skyrim if there were other human tribes in Skyrim?

The Forsworn claim they were always there because they don´t remember the times before they lived in the Reach. This is further made likely by the Hagravens, who according to them were always in the Reach, according to ESO, came to the Reach during the killing of High King Borgas by the Wild Hunt.

 

I cant prove it, but there being no account of the Forsworn prior to occasions where they could have immigrated: Direnni after war of succession + Wild Hunt for Hagravens, makes the timeline and lore I propose very likely.

 

In that case the Nords would have clearly more ancient rights to the Reach - Nordic Empire under Harald!