Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[dovahgee]

I have read through many of the responses to this topic and all of the views and opinions are interesting. Now I would like to present my thoughts.

 

Stormcloaks

I agree that the Stormcloaks are pretty racist along with the city of Windhelm. I agree that the Stormcloaks are right to be anti-Thalmor in protection of their religious freedom and to ultimately not risk being ruled by them. I admire the loyalty to their country that Stormcloaks and their supporters have, but they need to realize the importance of a united empire for all the people of Skyrim.

 

Imperials

I agree that the Imperials should be fighting to keep the empire of Skyrim intact. To preserve law, order, and freedom for everyone. I think they are playing an extremely dangerous game with Thalmor by letting them into Skyrim and giving them free reign to arrest and execute people for their choice of religion. While the game does make it easy to hate the Imperials while you're in Helgen at the start of the game if you get yourself up to Solitude and hear them out, they do have a good head on their sholders.

 

I know this isn't an option in the game but if it was what I would like to see is a way for the Imperials and Stormcloaks to unite, drive out the Thalmor from Skyrim, re-establish the Empire and make Skyrim a free country for all of it's citizens.

[MidbossVyers]

When I read "up to Solitude" and "head on their shoulders" in the same sentence, I couldn't help but smirk.

 

Ulfric isn't even actively racist either, just at worst racially neglectful. In other words, he doesn't care. Also, the Empire is fighting Ulfric NOT because he is racist, but only because he is a rebel. In other words, had Ulfric remained loyal to the Empire, the Empire wouldn't really care how he treated anyone. Heck, the Empire labeled Ulfric a hero for fighting the Forsworn, but as soon as he rebelled, those exact same actions were vilified. To stop Ulfric's "racist actions" is hardly a reason to join the Legion.

[Elimc]

Ok i'm back.

To the best of my knowledge, the Oblivion Crisis was caused by the Mythic Dawn, and Akatosh had nothing to do with starting it. And now that the Dragonfires and Amulet are obselete, it is unknown if he still blesses the empire.

 

Also, don't take the book "The Bear of Markarth" as necessarily true, it was written by an imperial scholar(probably biased) who got his information from the forsworn(definentily biased). And the atrocities described by the prisoners of Cidia mine were commited by Jarl Igmund(who is an imperial).

Edited April 2, 2015 by Elimc

[n0mad23]

Strange in all of this no one has once invoked the "aspiring merchant" character. For someone whose goal is accumulating 1 meg gold coins all one has to do is compare Solitude to Winterhold as to which side is better for business. Granted Ulrich's home is in Windhelm, but even this city has nothing on Solitude.

 

It's a pretty "no right answer" aspect of the game, to be sure. When I began my first play-through I was absolutely certain I'd be siding with the Stormcloaks when I had to decide. By the time I hit level 30, I wasn't nearly so sure, and when I decided at level 59, I actually spent over an hour in real time wrestling with my decision before heading off to join up.

 

Afterwards, I must admit feeling a bit disappointed. The Civil War quest line seems half baked at best in terms of execution. Still, the idea behind it and the level of required thinking that the "sincere" Skyrim citizen must put into this quandary is certainly one of the more interesting non-resolved aspects of the game.

 

I'm really kicking around the idea of installing Warzones for my next play-through.

[Elimc]

The reason that solitude is so much richer than windhelm is that solitude has money from the empire to help support itself and that Ulfric is commiting a lot of his resources to the war effort(probably too much) while solitude has a legion to fight war without requiring as many civilians to help out.

[TheVampireDante]

while solitude has a legion to fight war without requiring as many civilians to help out.

 

Except that most of the Legion presence in Skyrim is made of local recruits. There's very few "outside" bodies amongst the ranks, and those tend to be higher up the chain and usually away from the frontline.

[Lachdonin]

Except that most of the Legion presence in Skyrim is made of local recruits. There's very few "outside" bodies amongst the ranks, and those tend to be higher up the chain and usually away from the frontline.

Yeah, Tullius even comments about the fact that he's not given an ACTUAL Legion to deal with the Stormcloaks.

 

As for the Bear of Markarth... It cannot be dismissed outright. Igmund's father lacked the ability to retake the city, which is where Ulfric came in. He took the city, and HELD it while demanding the reinstatement of Talos. The city was then handed over, though Ulfric was arrested by the Empire shortly thereafter.

 

This causes a conflict of information. Ulfric would have had to hold the city and prisoners therein for at least a short period afterwards. Managing large volumes of prisoners is difficult during sieges, so keeping Ulf the cities population in chains is... Pushing the suspension if disbelief.

 

Now, it is possible that Ulfric did not imprison anyone, and that Igmund's father just executed all the Reachmen he could find when he regained control, but that still brings us to a second problem. That kind of mass culling requires signifigant manpower. Igmund's father, remember, lacked the ability to retake the city from the Reachmen, indicating he lacked significant forces. Which means he would have been dependant on Ulfric's army during the cull.

 

We also know that Ulfric remained in Markarth for some time after the exchange, as they had to hand him over to the Imperials baying at their gates. So he would have almost certainly been present during the mass executions, and it was his presence which facilitated them. While the Bear of Markath is likely heavy handed in placing all the blame on Ulfric, his culpability in the event remains quite clear, so the text cannot be dismissed outright.

[117649AR]

@117649AR

 

On the thing about Talos, it is still a possibility, and if it is true the divines won't care who wins.

 

Sorry i don't have much time so this is all i am going to say.

 

Understand, mantling is not something anyone can do with any God: one cannot mantle Talos for a number of reasons, and even so, the case can be made for neither Tullius nor Ulfric, only the Last Dragonborn. First, the steps of the dead are the steps of the dead: Talos is very much alive and well, and indeed, how can you kill one that has achieved CHIM? Second, CHIM guarantees permanence of self, absolute control over one's identity: the process of mantling involves becoming in one moment so similar to the entity being mantled that you fool the dreaming Godhead itself into believing that the separation of identities was a mistake, resulting in a complete merging. Indeed, Hjalti, Wulfharth, and Zurin did not fully mantle Lorkhan, by virtue of CHIM: by the same token, Talos cannot be fully mantled.

 

And of the course the Divines don't care who wins. Beyond the fact that they are slightly comatose, Aspect-Gods do not take sides in civil wars among their worshipers.

 

Ok i'm back.

To the best of my knowledge, the Oblivion Crisis was caused by the Mythic Dawn, and Akatosh had nothing to do with starting it. And now that the Dragonfires and Amulet are obselete, it is unknown if he still blesses the empire.

 

The Oblivion Crisis was caused by the Mythic Dawn assassinating the Emperor and his heirs, leaving the Dragonfires unlit, the Amulet of Kings without a Dragonborn Emperor to wear it, and the Covenant broken: the breaking of the Covenant caused Akatosh to remove his blessing from the Empire, thus weakening the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion, thus allowing Mehrunes Dagon to invade Tamriel using Oblivion Gates (as, under normal circumstances, Daedra cannot sustain themselves in Mundus without mortal summoners, and even so not in large numbers). The Planemeld was caused by Mannimarco tampering with the Amulet of Kings, also breaking the Covenant, also causing the barriers to weaken, also causing a Daedric Prince (in this case Molag Bal) to attempt to invade Nirn with armies of Daedra (in this case using Dark Anchors and Dolmens in place of Oblivion Gates). Each time the Covenant is broken and Akatosh removes his blessing, the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion weaken: the barriers are still strong by the time of Skyrim.

[Elimc]

You are might be right about Talos being mantled, but I think that is the only way Beth can end the civil war without saying one side won, so i think that is what will happen.

 

And Martin's sacrifice permamentally closed the Oblivion Gates, so the covenant with Akatosh is also obselete along with the Amulet of the Kings and the Dragonfires.

 

Ulfric took Markarth on the Empire's orders, otherwise why would Jarl Igmund keep saying "we" when he is describing the Markarth incident. And why in the world would you trust possibly the two most biased sources in the game to write a truthful account of what Ulfric did. That book belongs in the same category as The Talos Mistake and Nords Arise. It also states that the war with the Forsworn ended 5 years before it really did.

[117649AR]

You are might be right about Talos being mantled, but I think that is the only way Beth can end the civil war without saying one side won, so i think that is what will happen.

 

And Martin's sacrifice permamentally closed the Oblivion Gates, so the covenant with Akatosh is also obselete along with the Amulet of the Kings and the Dragonfires.

 

Beyond the fact that Talos cannot be mantled, there is also the fact that apotheosis does not universally result in Dragon Breaks, and the fact that a Dragon Break is not the only way to account for either side's victory potentially being the true outcome. Given the impending Second Great War, Bethesda may simply opt to say that regardless of which side was victorious in the Civil War, another War with the Dominion rendered it irrelevant.

 

The Covenant of Alessia as it was is obsolete, insofar as the original Covenant involved Dragonborn Emperors, the Dragonfires, and the Amulet of Kings: however, Martin's sacrifice in and of itself was not what restored the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion. Akatosh is responsible for the barrier, and his maintenance of the barrier is tied to his patronage of the Empire: in fact, the latter is his entire reason for being. When Akatosh and the Empire are no longer intertwined, that is when the barriers between the planes weaken, and Martin's sacrifice served to restore Akatosh's blessing.