Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Your example makes no sense. The Stormcloaks would rather fight than sign a treaty that forbids their religion. That is not the same as not accepting anything that isn't 100% in their favor. They might have accepted a peace treaty, but the WGC was not as much of a peace treaty as a conditional surrender. What made the Stormcloaks so mad was that the Empire surrendered after the elves severly weakened to the point where they couldn't even conquer one province, much less four.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Elimc

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Your example makes no sense. The Stormcloaks would rather fight than sign a treaty that forbids their religion. That is not the same as not accepting anything that isn't 100% in their favor. They might have accepted a peace treaty, but the WGC was not as much of a peace treaty as a conditional surrender. What made the Stormcloaks so mad was that the Empire surrendered after the elves severly weakened to the point where they couldn't even conquer one province, much less four.

 

The treaty officially forbids their religion, but it isn't as if the Empire makes any major efforts to crack down. If the Stormcloaks hadn't made a big deal over it at Markarth, then private shrines would still probably have been just fine.

 

The Empire was very much weakened at that point too, and had lost and had to retake the capital. If you pay attention to talk on the Empire side they seem very much interested in going another round with the Thalmor. This is a cold war, a temporary truce where both sides are rebuilding and regrouping (and likely waiting for the next player-hero to show up to 'save the day' for whoever the writers decide the day can be saved for).

 

It is nice to want the government to do what you want it to do but that doesn't make it practical. Furthermore, again if they hadn't made a fuss over it, the temple to Talos could probably have been quietly rebuilt once things had calmed down, if it was even dismantled at all.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The Thalmor would not have been stopped forever, sooner or later they would be in Skyrim hunting Talos worshipers. Ulfric may have sped this up by several years, but he is planning on stopping it forever. And since both sides were weakened, there was no reason for the Empire to surrender. I have no problem with them wanting peace, but getting it at the expense of their provinces was the not the right way to get it. How is the Empire supposed to build up with the Thalmor everywhere. It seems like they have not been able to do any building at all, especially considering Cicero's comments on the subject.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The Thalmor would not have been stopped forever, sooner or later they would be in Skyrim hunting Talos worshipers. Ulfric may have sped this up by several years, but he is planning on stopping it forever. And since both sides were weakened, there was no reason for the Empire to surrender. I have no problem with them wanting peace, but getting it at the expense of their provinces was the not the right way to get it. How is the Empire supposed to build up with the Thalmor everywhere. It seems like they have not been able to do any building at all, especially considering Cicero's comments on the subject.

 

The Thalmor are in Skyrim in very sparse patrols of two or three. The find and stake out one remote Talos shrine but other than that their investigation seems to consist of wandering about saying 'Do you worship Talos? We'll have to kill you if you worship Talos' That is hardly an effective 'anti-worship' effort. They have zero to negligible presence in most cities (although they do have a small advisory contingent in Markarth... where the Stormcloaks made a big deal of Talos worship, thus backing my argument since Markarth is not the Skyrim capital, and the only obvious reason why that city and not others is the Stormcloak ultimatum after taking the city back from the Foresworn).

 

They definitely aren't 'everywhere' and if not for the mess at Markarth might not have been anywhere. Cicero is not really sane, not sure his testimony means much of anything.

 

Edit: There is something else I think that you are missing, namely that if the Empire had given in to the Thalmor to the degree you are arguing, why isn't a contingent of Thalmor troops bolstering Tullius' forces? They could easily tip the balance in Skyrim in favour of the Empire and wipe out the most staunch defenders of Talos worship. Even if they just re-deployed their existing anti-Talos patrols that way it would make a significant difference.

 

To the contrary, the Thalmor want the Civil War to continue to weaken both sides, as evidenced by the files you capture from the Embassy.

Edited May 4, 2015 by kimmera

[kingwilfre16]

 

@Kimmera

 

The Thalmor would not have been stopped forever, sooner or later they would be in Skyrim hunting Talos worshipers. Ulfric may have sped this up by several years, but he is planning on stopping it forever. And since both sides were weakened, there was no reason for the Empire to surrender. I have no problem with them wanting peace, but getting it at the expense of their provinces was the not the right way to get it. How is the Empire supposed to build up with the Thalmor everywhere. It seems like they have not been able to do any building at all, especially considering Cicero's comments on the subject.

 

The Thalmor are in Skyrim in very sparse patrols of two or three. The find and stake out one remote Talos shrine but other than that their investigation seems to consist of wandering about saying 'Do you worship Talos? We'll have to kill you if you worship Talos' That is hardly an effective 'anti-worship' effort. They have zero to negligible presence in most cities

 

Blame that on Bethesda's inabity for level design.

[kimmera]

 

 

@Kimmera

 

The Thalmor would not have been stopped forever, sooner or later they would be in Skyrim hunting Talos worshipers. Ulfric may have sped this up by several years, but he is planning on stopping it forever. And since both sides were weakened, there was no reason for the Empire to surrender. I have no problem with them wanting peace, but getting it at the expense of their provinces was the not the right way to get it. How is the Empire supposed to build up with the Thalmor everywhere. It seems like they have not been able to do any building at all, especially considering Cicero's comments on the subject.

 

The Thalmor are in Skyrim in very sparse patrols of two or three. The find and stake out one remote Talos shrine but other than that their investigation seems to consist of wandering about saying 'Do you worship Talos? We'll have to kill you if you worship Talos' That is hardly an effective 'anti-worship' effort. They have zero to negligible presence in most cities

 

Blame that on Bethesda's inabity for level design.

 

 

How does that follow? The patrols are actually pretty tough. The Thalmor agents put up a better fight than any given bandit. And how else would they tell if someone worships Talos anyway? Do Talos worshipers smell differently or something?

 

Even if there was the capability for large scale troop movements within the engine, that wouldn't make a lot of sense either. You don't need more than a couple agents to check non-combatants.

 

But the real bottom line is that even a token presence in each city is well within the capacity of the engine. But they aren't there. And that tells me that they are only in Markarth because Markarth openly stood against the edict, making it hard for the Empire to say no to them there. And they patrol the wilderness because there is too much wilderness for the Empire to police to say no to them there.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The Thalmor have patrols around Skyrim, an embassy, an office in both of the major Imperial holds, and a fully garrisoned fort/prison. They are pretty much everywhere in the Imperial half of Skyrim. Also, I never said that the Imperial legion was weak. The legion is still a powerful army that could probably either defeat the AD or give them a run for their money. However, the economic and civil part of the Empire is falling apart, as evidenced by the Dark Brotherhood's sanctuaries being destroyed as cities fell. Cicero may be insane, but why would he lie about the state of the Empire? He has no reason to be biased or lie, and he is not so insane that he cannot process information. The Thalmor are trying to weaken the legion and make sure that Skyrim gets weakened as well as Cyrodil.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The Thalmor have patrols around Skyrim, an embassy, an office in both of the major Imperial holds, and a fully garrisoned fort/prison. They are pretty much everywhere in the Imperial half of Skyrim. Also, I never said that the Imperial legion was weak. The legion is still a powerful army that could probably either defeat the AD or give them a run for their money. However, the economic and civil part of the Empire is falling apart, as evidenced by the Dark Brotherhood's sanctuaries being destroyed as cities fell. Cicero may be insane, but why would he lie about the state of the Empire? He has no reason to be biased or lie, and he is not so insane that he cannot process information. The Thalmor are trying to weaken the legion and make sure that Skyrim gets weakened as well as Cyrodil.

 

Per Cicero's journal, Bravil fell to a drug war that likely erupted due to a lack of Imperial troops in the aftermath of the war. He said nothing about the Thalmor that I can find.

 

As for the Thalmor, why in blazes wouldn't they have an embassy? Canada has embassies in the US, every European country, in Russia, China, pretty much every country in the world. OMG, Canada controls the world!

 

The Thalmor had an office in Solitude that they abandoned once they were satisfied the Empire was keeping its end of the treaty. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thalmor_Headquarters

 

They have a presence in Markarth as I mentioned. The patrols are very minimal and token at best.

 

Northwatch Keep is pretty remote, in fact it's location is pretty strange. It would be better suited as a first line of defense against vampire incursion than anything else. Is there any lore on it at all? Unlike most place in Skyrim, it seems it doesn't respawn if cleared. Not sure if that is intentional or not.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Ok, you got me on the amount of Thalmor in Skyrim, I thought the empty Thalmor HQ was a bug. But they still do go around kidnapping people for Talos worship, so they do have some presence. And I think that even if the Thalmor weren't involved with Bravil, which is probably true, the reason the Empire couldn't keep order was they are too busy trying to mantain a strong presence on the border to worry about civil affairs.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Ok, you got me on the amount of Thalmor in Skyrim, I thought the empty Thalmor HQ was a bug. But they still do go around kidnapping people for Talos worship, so they do have some presence. And I think that even if the Thalmor weren't involved with Bravil, which is probably true, the reason the Empire couldn't keep order was they are too busy trying to mantain a strong presence on the border to worry about civil affairs.

 

I very much agree regarding the Imperial situation. The rebellion in Skyrim is something they simply cannot afford, and Ulfric's stubbornness is not condusive to any diplomatic solutions. The stormcloaks don't seem to comprehend 'subtle' very well. I get no sense of any real vision from Ulfric other than simply wanting to be in charge. There may be a legitimate cause regarding Talos worship but that doesn't preclude him simply being power hungry.