Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Well, he fell back all the way to dragonsreach before he fought, so the point is the same.

 

Yes, Ulfric made an assumption, but it was correct. If he had stayed, then he would be the one being executed, not Rogvir. If Ulfric wouldn't have been executed, then why was Rogvir killed? After all, his only crime was letting Ulfric leave.

 

Ulfric had still asked Torygg to leave the Empire, and Torygg hadn't. If Torygg wouldn't listen to Ulfric at the moot, why would he listen to Ulfric later? I'll agree with you that Ulfric should have given Torygg another chance, but I don't think Torygg would have listened. Also, at the end of Sybille's speech, she says that Torygg would never have left the Empire "Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart." So how is that not a contradiction?

 

Vignar says that "The people saw fit to name me Jarl, and I don't intend to let them down." Even if it wasn't a formal election with everyone getting an equal vote, which it might have been, the people of Whiterun did choose Vignar as the new Jarl. Denegier is forced to step down because of nobles in his hold who like the Empire.

 

A few Thalmor going through Cyrodil to get to Skyrim wouldn't effect Cyrodil much, if at all. And since we never have any evidence of Thalmor killing Talos worshipers in Cyrodil, I don't belive it is happening. Plus, TMII would probably resist that more than he would resist allowing Thalmor in Skyrim.

 

Well, Tullius fights from the back too, so I don't really see your point. Maybe Ulfric should lead every charge, but if he should, then why shouldn't Tullius?

 

The Empire is making up facts about Ulfric attacking Whiterun. They do not want to force their way in, but they will get in one way or another. Ulfric takes a more straightforward aproach and simply tells Balgruuf to pick a side, or in the Imperial version, he thinks Balgruuf sending his axe means that Balgruuf is siding with the Empire, or at least against him. If Germany had to take over France to prevent the world from ceasing to ever have existed at all, then I do think attacking through Belgium would have been justified. Also, in the Stormcloack version, Ulfric did give Whiterun a chance to side with him. In the Imperial version, Balgruuf belives the Imperial's lies, and sides against Ulfric. And even if Ulfric doesn't know the AD's final goal, he is still trying to save Skyrim, not take over the world. Also, when he attacks Whiterun, how many innocents are killed by him? The farmer was probably killed by an Imperial catapult, and that is the only civilian I can remember who gets killed in the Battle for Whiterun. Only the Whiterun guards who like the Empire and some Imperial soldiers are killed by Stormcloaks.

 

Even if Ulfric doesn't know the AD's plan to destroy the world, he still knows he is fighting to save humanity, so my point about France still stands. Ulfric did not start this war, so it is very unfair to compare him to Germany in WWII. His forcing one person (Balgruuf) to choose a side does not make him evil. Also, in the Imperial version, you could say Tullius forces Balgruuf to choose a side by making him think that Ulfric is about to attack Whiterun.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Elimc

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

@Kimmera

 

Ulfric had still asked Torygg to leave the Empire, and Torygg hadn't. If Torygg wouldn't listen to Ulfric at the moot, why would he listen to Ulfric later? I'll agree with you that Ulfric should have given Torygg another chance, but I don't think Torygg would have listened.

 

There is a difference between privately and respectfully discussing something with a person and trying to publicly shame them. I may not agree that Ulfric is as smart as some of you believe, but he is smart enough to know exactly what he was doing.

 

Ulfric wasn't trying to resolve things, he wanted an excuse to depose Torygg and make it look/seem legit that he was doing so. Not saying it wasn't legitimate or that it was, just saying that at the very least he wanted his challenge to look legitimate.

 

Also it isn't a contradiction because on one hand she is describing Torygg's mindset as it was and of its own accord... while on the other she is talking about the fact that she felt that it could have been swayed by Ulfric.

 

Negotiations, mediations, etc commonly begin with sides unwilling to bend but it doesn't mean that it will end that way.

 

Ulfric is definitely not as noble as you're trying to paint him. He is simply someone who coveted Torygg's position and saw an opportunity to do so and so he took that opportunity. He isn't thinking about what is best for Skyrim, he is doing what is best for himself.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Well, he fell back all the way to dragonsreach before he fought, so the point is the same.

 

 

 

Regardless, that is Balgruuf's honor (or lack thereof). On the Empire side he is on the battlements too quickly to have fallen back.

 

Yes, Ulfric made an assumption, but it was correct. If he had stayed, then he would be the one being executed, not Rogvir. If Ulfric wouldn't have been executed, then why was Rogvir killed? After all, his only crime was letting Ulfric leave.

 

What you are basically saying is that Ulfric knew (or at least believed) Nord law was not actually in play, in which case, was his challenge actually lawful after all? Even if it was lawful under Nord/Skyrim law, Skyrim is still part of the Empire and thus still subject to Imperial Law, whether Ulfric (or you) likes that or not. The troops of Skyrim swore fealty to Talos and the Empire. What you (and Ulfric) are insisting is that fealty only applies as long as it is convenient and there are no significant impositions on Skyrim. Talos wasn't even deified yet, so Talos worship certainly wasn't a condition of their oath.

 

Ulfric had still asked Torygg to leave the Empire, and Torygg hadn't. If Torygg wouldn't listen to Ulfric at the moot, why would he listen to Ulfric later? I'll agree with you that Ulfric should have given Torygg another chance, but I don't think Torygg would have listened. Also, at the end of Sybille's speech, she says that Torygg would never have left the Empire "Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart." So how is that not a contradiction?

Ulfric didn't ask Torygg any such thing. His campaigning was before Torygg was formally crowned. He asked the Moot, not Torygg specifically. Regardless, he never came back to try again just with Torygg, after Torygg had been crowned and thus had the authority to make such a decision. He could have tried to do so before challenging Torygg and still had challenge as a fallback option if he failed. Stating Torygg's logic and stating his leanings are not the same thing. It was Torygg who was conflicted, not Sybille's answers.

 

Vignar says that "The people saw fit to name me Jarl, and I don't intend to let them down." Even if it wasn't a formal election with everyone getting an equal vote, which it might have been, the people of Whiterun did choose Vignar as the new Jarl. Denegier is forced to step down because of nobles in his hold who like the Empire.

The only 'people' that saw fit to name Vignar was Ulfric himself (and maybe his family). Besides the fact he is literally appointed immediately, most of Whiterun is neutral. Vignar's family specifically are the Stormcloak loyalists.

A few Thalmor going through Cyrodil to get to Skyrim wouldn't effect Cyrodil much, if at all. And since we never have any evidence of Thalmor killing Talos worshipers in Cyrodil, I don't belive it is happening. Plus, TMII would probably resist that more than he would resist allowing Thalmor in Skyrim.

 

Supplying troops isn't trivial. Northwatch Keep doesn't have farms supporting it, nor any production of trade goods. Likewise with the Embassy.

 

Well, Tullius fights from the back too, so I don't really see your point. Maybe Ulfric should lead every charge, but if he should, then why shouldn't Tullius?

T

 

Tullius has somewhat of an excuse. He is purely a general, not a political leader. The Imperial structure is very different from the Jarls. The Empire doesn't have or even pretend to have any sort of 'might makes right' challenge your way to the top system, unlike the traditional Skyrim Law that Ulfric claims to be championing. Tullius has a second excuse in that it is Balgruuf's city being defended, so not upstaging the Jarl is wise politically, and reinforces the Imperial position that they considered Whiterun to be neutral. The Empire is helping defend the city. Ulfric is attacking it. There is a significant moral difference there.

 

he Empire is making up facts about Ulfric attacking Whiterun. They do not want to force their way in, but they will get in one way or another. Ulfric takes a more straightforward aproach and simply tells Balgruuf to pick a side, or in the Imperial version, he thinks Balgruuf sending his axe means that Balgruuf is siding with the Empire, or at least against him. If Germany had to take over France to prevent the world from ceasing to ever have existed at all, then I do think attacking through Belgium would have been justified. Also, in the Stormcloack version, Ulfric did give Whiterun a chance to side with him. In the Imperial version, Balgruuf belives the Imperial's lies, and sides against Ulfric. And even if Ulfric doesn't know the AD's final goal, he is still trying to save Skyrim, not take over the world. Also, when he attacks Whiterun, how many innocents are killed by him? The farmer was probably killed by an Imperial catapult, and that is the only civilian I can remember who gets killed in the Battle for Whiterun. Only the Whiterun guards who like the Empire and some Imperial soldiers are killed by Stormcloaks.

Even if Ulfric doesn't know the AD's plan to destroy the world, he still knows he is fighting to save humanity, so my point about France still stands. Ulfric did not start this war, so it is very unfair to compare him to Germany in WWII. His forcing one person (Balgruuf) to choose a side does not make him evil. Also, in the Imperial version, you could say Tullius forces Balgruuf to choose a side by making him think that Ulfric is about to attack Whiterun.

 

What, exactly, is the Empire making up about Whiterun? Ulfric does attack it. Depending on side, Ulfric either demands 'join me peacefully or be conquered' or Balgruuf asks Ulfric's intent, and Ulfric simply attacks. Which of those is contrary to the Empire telling Balgruuf that Ulfric intends to take the city, by force if necessary? Balgruuf only 'sides against Ulfric' in the Imperial version because Ulfric declares his intent to attack the city. As for sparing civilians, the Empire does the same when attacking Windhelm.

 

Ulfric most certainly started the war. He killed Torygg, then fled the city to rally his army. Raising armies against the state is an act of treason. He didn't wait for a trial, he didn't wait for the Moot to make a decision, he simply raised armies.

 

And regardless, you completely avoided (or perhaps didn't understand) my comparison between Whiterun and Belgium. It doesn't matter who started the war. Whiterun was a neutral city that hadn't entered the war. The Empire respected that. Ulfric refused to do so.

...

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Balgruuf probably started on the battlements, and watched how the battle was going. If the Stormcloaks lowered the drawbridge, then he fell back into the city, and then back into Dragonsreach. If the Imperials were holding off the Stormcloaks, then he saw no reason to retreat. Either way, he does not fight.

 

Well, since Ulfric wants to leave the Empire, of course he doesn't care about their laws. The only reason the Empire and Elisif say the challenge is illegal is that they want Skyrim to remain part of the Empire and they are mad at Ulfric for killing Torygg. There is no law that says challenging the HIgh King is prohibited, but since it serves the Empire's best interests to not let Ulfric rule Skyrim, they made up a law saying that he can't.

 

Ulfric asked Torygg to leave the Empire at the moot. It doesn't matter how he did it, he still asked Torygg to leave the Empire. And Torygg still refused. Also, I do agree that Ulfric should have asked Torygg to leave the Empire first, but I don't think it would have mattered, especially considering that Sybille says he wouldn't have "Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."

 

Ulfric was not in Whiterun to appoint Vignar as Jarl, and Vignar says that the people of Whiterun appointed him, not Ulfric. Maybe the Battle-Borns weren't allowed to run, but he acts like most of Whiterun wanted him to be Jarl.

 

How do you know that the Thalmor don't get there food from the Imperial parts of Skyrim instead of Cyrodil. It would be much more practical.

 

In Morrowind, didn't you become a higher rank in the Legion by killing your current commander in a duel? So the Empire does have such a system, or at least it did. And he doesn't fight in any of the other battles either. What is his excuse for that. By sending Ulfric his axe, Balgruuf basically sided with the Empire. When Uflric attacked Whiterun, it was no longer neutral, it was Imperial.

 

Did you not hear Tullius telling Rikke to embellish facts about Ulfric troop movements? He is making up facts about Ulfric's plan to take Whiterun. Balgruuf does not simply ask Ulfric's intent by sending his axe, he asks Ulfric to side with him, and not try to win the war. Challenging the High King to a duel is not against the law. It is most definintally not a declaration of war. He wasn't going to get a trial, if he was going to, then what was Helgen all about? And why did Rogvir get executed? And is Ulfric the one stopping the moot, or is it Tullius? Or is it both of them? Also, Tullius captured and tried to execute Ulfric before the war actually started, so it is pretty easy to argue that Tullius started the war.

 

In the Imperial version, the Empire convinced Balgruuf that Ulfric was about to attack Whiterun, and Balgruuf sent his axe to Ulfric, telling him to stand down. In the Stormcloak version, Ulfric is tired of Balgruuf not choosing a side, and forces him to choose. Either way, he waits to attack until Balgruuf has sided with the Empire. He does not attack it while it is neutral.

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, most top ranks in Morrowind guilds were earned by personally executing the previous holder. Dark Elf culture right there.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Balgruuf probably started on the battlements, and watched how the battle was going. If the Stormcloaks lowered the drawbridge, then he fell back into the city, and then back into Dragonsreach. If the Imperials were holding off the Stormcloaks, then he saw no reason to retreat. Either way, he does not fight.

 

Well, since Ulfric wants to leave the Empire, of course he doesn't care about their laws. The only reason the Empire and Elisif say the challenge is illegal is that they want Skyrim to remain part of the Empire and they are mad at Ulfric for killing Torygg. There is no law that says challenging the HIgh King is prohibited, but since it serves the Empire's best interests to not let Ulfric rule Skyrim, they made up a law saying that he can't.

 

Ulfric asked Torygg to leave the Empire at the moot. It doesn't matter how he did it, he still asked Torygg to leave the Empire. And Torygg still refused. Also, I do agree that Ulfric should have asked Torygg to leave the Empire first, but I don't think it would have mattered, especially considering that Sybille says he wouldn't have "Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."

 

Ulfric was not in Whiterun to appoint Vignar as Jarl, and Vignar says that the people of Whiterun appointed him, not Ulfric. Maybe the Battle-Borns weren't allowed to run, but he acts like most of Whiterun wanted him to be Jarl.

 

How do you know that the Thalmor don't get there food from the Imperial parts of Skyrim instead of Cyrodil. It would be much more practical.

 

In Morrowind, didn't you become a higher rank in the Legion by killing your current commander in a duel? So the Empire does have such a system, or at least it did. And he doesn't fight in any of the other battles either. What is his excuse for that. By sending Ulfric his axe, Balgruuf basically sided with the Empire. When Uflric attacked Whiterun, it was no longer neutral, it was Imperial.

 

Did you not hear Tullius telling Rikke to embellish facts about Ulfric troop movements? He is making up facts about Ulfric's plan to take Whiterun. Balgruuf does not simply ask Ulfric's intent by sending his axe, he asks Ulfric to side with him, and not try to win the war. Challenging the High King to a duel is not against the law. It is most definintally not a declaration of war. He wasn't going to get a trial, if he was going to, then what was Helgen all about? And why did Rogvir get executed? And is Ulfric the one stopping the moot, or is it Tullius? Or is it both of them? Also, Tullius captured and tried to execute Ulfric before the war actually started, so it is pretty easy to argue that Tullius started the war.

 

In the Imperial version, the Empire convinced Balgruuf that Ulfric was about to attack Whiterun, and Balgruuf sent his axe to Ulfric, telling him to stand down. In the Stormcloak version, Ulfric is tired of Balgruuf not choosing a side, and forces him to choose. Either way, he waits to attack until Balgruuf has sided with the Empire. He does not attack it while it is neutral.

 

The city (and the battlements) are being bombarded. He is in harm's way there.

 

If there is no law saying the challenge is illegal, then on what grounds do the Empire consider it murder? There has been no indication in any other portrayal of the Empire that such a thing is legal. A count governing a city in Cyrodiil cannot simply challenge the Emperor to a duel. A Thane cannot even challege a Jarl to a duel. When the armies of Skyrim swore allegiance to the Empire, was it 'as long as your laws don't affect us?' That seems like something other than allegiance.

 

On a Stormcloak victory, Vignar immediately has a private conversation with Balgruuf. Ulfric's commander interrupts, then Balgruuf does a short speech, and Vignar takes over. The only one claiming that Vignar 'represents the people' is Vignar. He can say he is elected all he wants, but all evidence of actual events shows he is just an opportunist who was waiting for this and thus ready to take advantage of it.

 

As for the advancement in Morrowwind, the commander you challenge is the one who suggests the duel. The entire rank system seems to change entirely by Skyrim though, so it is possible that practice has been abandoned. Certainly there is no option to challenge Tullius for his job nor even Rikke for hers.

 

If Balgruuf believed any embellishments, he wouldn't have needed to send the axe. Even if you are right in your interpretation (personally I think it is war or peace, not 'are you with me or against me'), what about 'are you on my side?' is something Ulfric would object to? Wouldn't the answer be 'Of course we are on the same side, now let's go kick Imperial butt?' Or do you really believe that Balgruuf was asking Ulfric to ally with Whiterun against the Stormcloaks? That would make no sense at all.

 

You really should re-read things I write before replying. I wasn't saying that challenging the High King to a duel was not an act of war. I was saying that mobilizing his armies against the Empire was an act of war. The closest thing the Empire can be accused of is false arrest, and they haven't even arrested Ulfric yet at that point. You seem in denial about this, but Skyrim is part of the Empire until/unless Ulfric wins. You are saying the Empire declared war against itself....

 

Telling Ulfric to stand down against Whiterun is like Belgium telling Germany "we are neutral, you shouldn't be attacking us." The choice was between the status quo (neutral Whiterun) and war. You are seriously rationalizing here.

[MidbossVyers]

For the record, by the end of the Legion quest line, you are already promoted to Legate, the same rank of Rikke, by Tullius, so challenging Rikke would be redundant. Also, a total of 3 Imperial guilds in Morrowind had a "kill your boss to replace him" system: the Fighters Guild, the Mages Guild, and the Imperial Legion.

Edited July 4, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[Elimc]

@kimmera

 

Balgruuf may be in harms way, but he still is not fighting. He is just watching.

 

There is no known Imperial law that says challenging the high king is illegal. Tullius probably made that up to get moral high ground in the war. If they did have such a law, there system in morrowind wouldn't have existed.

 

While the LDB is inside dragonsreach fighting Balgruuf, Vignar and the rest of Whiterun decide who the new Jarl is. Since Galmar is inside Dragonsreach and Ulfric is in Windhelm, neither of them can be directly responsible for Vignar becoming Jarl. Maybe the soldiers made sure only Stormcloak supporters could run, but it is unlikely everyone just stood by as he said that he was Jarl. He would have needed the majority of the people to like him, or they would have made someone else Jarl.

 

I thought Balgruuf sending his axe meant he was asking Ulfric to basically stop the war, and let the moot happen. Of course, Ulfric doesn't think the moot will be able to name him king without Tullius starting the war again, so he decides that because Balgruuf would rather join the Empire than him, he needs to take Whiterun. But Bethesda left the precise meaning of sending someone an axe up to interperitation, so all we can do is speculate. And if Balgruuf really was asking Ulfric to help him fight the Empire, then why did he appear to agree to offend Ulfric in his converstation with Provencius and Irileth?

 

Well, it is a civil war, so they kind of have. Also, do you know that he mobilized his armies before Tullius mobilized his? I know Ulfric would have started a war if he became king, but Tullius might have started it first by trying to arrest Ulfric. And the part of Skyrim that Ulfric controls plus does not consider itself part of the Empire.

 

Yes, but in that scenario Germany was invading, and France was simply defending. It would only apply if Germany and France were both about equally strong, and both already at war, with neither side winning. And Belgium would have to be a small part of France or Germany that hadn't decided which side it wanted to be on.

[kimmera]

@kimmera

 

Balgruuf may be in harms way, but he still is not fighting. He is just watching.

 

There is no known Imperial law that says challenging the high king is illegal. Tullius probably made that up to get moral high ground in the war. If they did have such a law, there system in morrowind wouldn't have existed.

 

While the LDB is inside dragonsreach fighting Balgruuf, Vignar and the rest of Whiterun decide who the new Jarl is. Since Galmar is inside Dragonsreach and Ulfric is in Windhelm, neither of them can be directly responsible for Vignar becoming Jarl. Maybe the soldiers made sure only Stormcloak supporters could run, but it is unlikely everyone just stood by as he said that he was Jarl. He would have needed the majority of the people to like him, or they would have made someone else Jarl.

 

I thought Balgruuf sending his axe meant he was asking Ulfric to basically stop the war, and let the moot happen. Of course, Ulfric doesn't think the moot will be able to name him king without Tullius starting the war again, so he decides that because Balgruuf would rather join the Empire than him, he needs to take Whiterun. But Bethesda left the precise meaning of sending someone an axe up to interperitation, so all we can do is speculate. And if Balgruuf really was asking Ulfric to help him fight the Empire, then why did he appear to agree to offend Ulfric in his converstation with Provencius and Irileth?

 

Well, it is a civil war, so they kind of have. Also, do you know that he mobilized his armies before Tullius mobilized his? I know Ulfric would have started a war if he became king, but Tullius might have started it first by trying to arrest Ulfric. And the part of Skyrim that Ulfric controls plus does not consider itself part of the Empire.

 

Yes, but in that scenario Germany was invading, and France was simply defending. It would only apply if Germany and France were both about equally strong, and both already at war, with neither side winning. And Belgium would have to be a small part of France or Germany that hadn't decided which side it wanted to be on.

 

And no one calls Tullius on inventing an Imperial Law? Seriously? No one? Morrowwind was a couple Emperors (and a couple games) ago. It does not necessarily establish precident. You can't challenge Tullius for his General's spot. Even if it had been legal before, one of the reasons dueling was phased out is that it was recognized that it is a really stupid way to lose good officers. Personal ability to defend oneself in a duel is a completely independent skill from tactical or strategic leadership.

 

The Empire mobilizing would not be a civil war, since they would have to be mobilizing against themselves. Until Ulfric declares independence, there is no other side in such a civil war.

 

The fight against Balgruuf lasts seconds, and the town is still being secured by troops. There is no messenger, and since his forces are taking over, presumably Ulfric's commander (and later Ulfric) would get a veto over any choice anyway or the citizens would just re-choose Balgruuf. If you insist on the challenge = right to rule principal, they should have chosen either Ulfric's commander, or the Dragonborn rather than Vignar. Vignar doesn't even fight on either side. He essentially stays 'civilian.' Pardon my saying this, but you really don't seem to be making much sense.

 

So if Germany had gone through the Maginot Line and France had invaded Belgium to counter-attack against Germany without Belgium's consent, it would have been 'ok' because France was defending therefore Belgian neutrality wouldn't have counted.... even though Belgium wasn't invading? Neutral is neutral. In a way, Whiterun had achieved what Ulfric desired, succession from the Empire (at least temporarily). They may not have been on Ulfric's side, but they weren't supporting, supplying, or housing Imperial forces either. They were neutral .... at least until Ulfric openly reveals his intentions.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

No one in Solitude seems to care about the legality of the duel, except for Sybille, and she says it was legal. But then Tullius comes along and says that it wasn't legal. How does that make sense?

 

The Empire could have realized Ulfric was about to declare independence, and sent Tullius to stop him from being able to. Ulfric wasn't planning on delcaring independince until he was the High King, so maybe he was going to try to get a moot to happen, and then Tullius showed up, starting the war. Or maybe Ulfric did run back to Windhelm, and start readying his armies to take Skyrim. We don't know.

 

Well, the people in Whiterun would have assumed that the Stormcloaks had won once they occupied the city and a couple of them went into Dragonsreach, so they would have decided to choose a new Jarl. And while Ulfric probably would have vetoed a Battle-Born becoming Jarl, Vignar says the people chose him, so even if only Stormcloak supporters were valid canidates, he was still chosen as Jarl. Also, since no one is challenging Balgruuf, so I don't even see what you are trying to say. How do you know the fight against Balgruuf lasts seconds? It could last a few minutes.

 

Ulfric did not simply attack Whiterun. In the Stormcloak version, he told it to pick a side. In the Imperial version, we don't really know exactly what sending an axe means, but he gave Balgruuf a warning that he was attacking, unless Balgruuf joined him. Either way, Balgruuf decides to join the Empire instead of the Stormcloaks, and Ulfric then attacks him.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Elimc