Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

 

1) And how, exactly, do they get rid of the temples? What if the worshipers resist? Do they somehow use nothing but non-lethal force?

 

2) Meanwhile if Talos worship doesn't involve killing, what in blazes is the whole civil war? Ulfric isn't talking people into dropping their weapons. He has an army defending open worship of Talos and killing in the name of that cause, something you seem to claim would be illegal (even to the Nords) if the army was defending, say, Meridia worship.

1) How did the Imperial-aligned holds get rid of the Talos temples? I didn't notice that "the streets ran red with blood" from persecuted Talos worshipers. If there was a public Talos shrine, it was removed. (Though there is that temple still in Markarth....) The shrines out in the countryside weren't even disturbed. (Except for Thalmor ambushes.) In practical terms, the Empire is simply tasked with withdrawing any Imperial endorsement and to no allow placement in government-secured facilities. (Such as the Temple of the Divines in Solitude.) The Imperial government didn't even bother to appoint Inspectors to go looking for Talos worshipers.

 

2) Talos worship itself does NOT mandate killing. In broad terms, the civil war is about fighting for Freedom of Religion. The Stormcloaks are not fighting to force non-believers to convert or die, or to die to provide a sacrifice to the deity. Rather, they see it as a war of self-defense -- to have a right taken from them to be restored. [Just like the American Civil War was NOT simply about ending Slavery. It was about States' rights to self-determination -- like to allow Slavery or not in any given State -- rather than being dictated to by a central government that cedes control to whatever the popular majority wants. 21.5 vs 12.5, the South loses. (The .5 was Virginia getting split.)]

[kimmera]

 

 

1) And how, exactly, do they get rid of the temples? What if the worshipers resist? Do they somehow use nothing but non-lethal force?

 

2) Meanwhile if Talos worship doesn't involve killing, what in blazes is the whole civil war? Ulfric isn't talking people into dropping their weapons. He has an army defending open worship of Talos and killing in the name of that cause, something you seem to claim would be illegal (even to the Nords) if the army was defending, say, Meridia worship.

1) How did the Imperial-aligned holds get rid of the Talos temples? I didn't notice that "the streets ran red with blood" from persecuted Talos worshipers. If there was a public Talos shrine, it was removed. (Though there is that temple still in Markarth....) The shrines out in the countryside weren't even disturbed. (Except for Thalmor ambushes.) In practical terms, the Empire is simply tasked with withdrawing any Imperial endorsement and to no allow placement in government-secured facilities. (Such as the Temple of the Divines in Solitude.) The Imperial government didn't even bother to appoint Inspectors to go looking for Talos worshipers.

 

2) Talos worship itself does NOT mandate killing. In broad terms, the civil war is about fighting for Freedom of Religion. The Stormcloaks are not fighting to force non-believers to convert or die, or to die to provide a sacrifice to the deity. Rather, they see it as a war of self-defense -- to have a right taken from them to be restored. [Just like the American Civil War was NOT simply about ending Slavery. It was about States' rights to self-determination -- like to allow Slavery or not in any given State -- rather than being dictated to by a central government that cedes control to whatever the popular majority wants. 21.5 vs 12.5, the South loses. (The .5 was Virginia getting split.)]

 

 

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the populace screaming 'religious freedom' when it is the Empire removing their preferred religion but not when it is them driving out any religion they disapprove of.

 

Were there Talos temples in every major city at all? Where exactly were they and why is the Markarth temple still intact just deserted? Solitude just removed the shrine from their One Temple for All style Temple of the Divines. Other than Solitude, cities just have one temple each, each to a different divine. There aren't Talos temple ruins everywhere, or anywhere, really.

 

Fighting for religious freedom doesn't mean much when you are not offering religious freedom (as evidenced by the attitude towards Daedra worship).

 

And in the US Civil War, please enlighten me which 'state right' was being argued over other than slavery. The Southern states were even insisting that their right to own slaves should apply even if they enter states that ban slavery with those slaves. That is wanting their cake and to eat it too, for the rights of their states to apply even outside state boundaries, superseding the rights of any state they entered.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

They don't let people build temples to Daedra, who nearly destroyed the world and who (in general) don't care about killing a few people.

 

The civil war was fought over states rights, not slavery. Most of the people in the Confederacy didn't even own slaves. But I don't want to argue this here.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Elimc

[CaptainPatch]

 

 

1) I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the populace screaming 'religious freedom' when it is the Empire removing their preferred religion but not when it is them driving out any religion they disapprove of.

 

Fighting for religious freedom doesn't mean much when you are not offering religious freedom (as evidenced by the attitude towards Daedra worship).

 

2) And in the US Civil War, please enlighten me which 'state right' was being argued over other than slavery. The Southern states were even insisting that their right to own slaves should apply even if they enter states that ban slavery with those slaves. That is wanting their cake and to eat it too, for the rights of their states to apply even outside state boundaries, superseding the rights of any state they entered.

1) You are correct to call them hypocritical. Rather than calling for general Freedom of Religion, they are concerned about "our Freedom of Religion." As grievances go, they are legitimately (imho) fighting to have restored that which was taken from them without their consent, or even consulted with. Then again, it's not uncommon in an empire for the emperor to make unilateral decisions.

 

2) As Elimc says, that subject is best discussed via PM. (Expect one soon.)

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

They don't let people build temples to Daedra, who nearly destroyed the world and who (in general) don't care about killing a few people.

 

The civil war was fought over states rights, not slavery. Most of the people in the Confederacy didn't even own slaves. But I don't want to argue this here.

 

No. The Daedra Lords did not gang up to destroy the world. ONE Daedra Lord did so and it was one who was obviously a 'destroying the world would be a good idea' type.

 

Fair enough regarding taking the US Civil War discussion to PM's, however in my defense, I didn't bring that one up first.

Edited August 4, 2015 by kimmera

[LeddBate]

Wow. Never expected this old thread to keep going so long. Eat that, Energizer Bunny...

 

Seriously though, -I've always considered Balgruuf a bit of a tragic figure. Not weak mind you, quite the opposite in fact. He is simply in the midst of a no-win situation where his honor and heritage are pulling him in opposite directions. His elderscrolls wikia (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Balgruuf_the_Greater) pretty much lays bare the dilemma he faces. Balgruuf is also one of the primary reasons I chose to side with the Imperials. I simply cannot stand deposing him (or rather, helping to depose him) as Jarl of Whiterun. I don't have anything specific against Vignar Gray-mane (other than I think he's a bit too opportunistic) but I respect Balgruuf a helluva lot more than him. Like Balgruuf, I hate the Thalmor and I worship Talos. But I also believe that, like it or not (and I don't like it) the WG concordant must be obeyed (at least to the letter if not the full intent.)

 

Er, when I say "I" above, I mean my character, not me personally. Obviously.

 

Ironically, there are opportunities built right into the game for characters who "go Imperial" but still are enemies of the Thalmor and want to worship Talos. The whole party sequence at the Thalmor embassy (Diplomatic Immunity) as well as the side quest that leads you to an underground Talos worshipping sect -which is run, by all people, by a high-elf! (I should note here that I cannot find any mention of this side-quest in the wikia. Can't even remember what it was called. Unfortunately, I erased all the saves from my earlier character during a clean-up of my game. Might have been added by a mod.) Those and other quests let your character be imperial-allied, yet still allow you to worship Talos and "put one in the eye" of the Thalmor in general.

 

Someday I will "go Stormcloak" in another playthrough, just to experience it. But I feel certain my heart won't be in it.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Actually, two Daedric Lords have tried to destroy the world. Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon. And Meridia tried to help the Aylieds destroy the humans during the Alyessian rebellion. Herma Mora and Sheo both drive people insane. Boethia and Mephala both have murder as a part of their sphere. Namira does require human sacrifice. Nocturnal is the Daedric Prince of theives. Peyrite goes around giving people a weird disease. Vaermina is the Daedric prince of Nightmares. Azura will go to extreme lengths to get revenge. I think I got all of the Daedra here, but I might have missed a couple.

 

I do like Balgruuf, but he chooses the wrong side.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Actually, two Daedric Lords have tried to destroy the world. Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon. And Meridia tried to help the Aylieds destroy the humans during the Alyessian rebellion. Herma Mora and Sheo both drive people insane. Boethia and Mephala both have murder as a part of their sphere. Namira does require human sacrifice. Nocturnal is the Daedric Prince of theives. Peyrite goes around giving people a weird disease. Vaermina is the Daedric prince of Nightmares. Azura will go to extreme lengths to get revenge. I think I got all of the Daedra here, but I might have missed a couple.

 

I do like Balgruuf, but he chooses the wrong side.

 

Azura also acted to block the machinations of the Tribunal. Meridia is staunchly anti-undead. Not sure that Herma Mora deliberately drives people insane. More like his followers tend to end up learning more than they can handle.

 

Sheogorath may drive people insane, but also relented and cured Pelagius' spirit of insanity. He is more mischievous than malicious, and it is not necessarily the case that he drives people insane so much as insane people are drawn to him. A good example would be that in his interactions with the Hero of Kvatch and with the Dragonborn, he threatens a lot but never actually acts on those threats.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Azura still got quite a few innocents killed in Skyrim, and how does her stopping the Tribunal have any effect on this, since most Dunmer preferred them over the Daedra? Meridia may be anti-undead, but she still tried to help the Aylieds dominate the humans. Regardless, people go insane when Herma Mora is around. Sheogorath cured Pelagius after he was dead, and you still encounter mad people rambling about Sheogorath in Skyrim, although it is possible they were insane before they met Sheogorath. But would you want a temple to the Daedric Prince of Madness in your city?

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Azura still got quite a few innocents killed in Skyrim, and how does her stopping the Tribunal have any effect on this, since most Dunmer preferred them over the Daedra? Meridia may be anti-undead, but she still tried to help the Aylieds dominate the humans. Regardless, people go insane when Herma Mora is around. Sheogorath cured Pelagius after he was dead, and you still encounter mad people rambling about Sheogorath in Skyrim, although it is possible they were insane before they met Sheogorath. But would you want a temple to the Daedric Prince of Madness in your city?

 

Well... Azura sponsors the Nerevarine, who first stops Dagoth Ur from driving all outsiders out of Morrowind and spreading Corpus everywhere, then goes on to defeat Almalexia, who has similarly been driven mad in the quest for divinity. Azura is most definitely supporting the good side. Meridia's intervention in the Aylied rebellion was a very long time ago, and it seems unlikely that the majority would remember that. It isn't like we have played through that period, so maybe the humans had turned to necromancy in their fight for freedom. We don't know.

 

Sheogorath isn't that much different or worse than Dionysus, and there were temples to him in RL cities. And not having a temple does not mean you are safe from madness. There was no such temple in Solitude, yet Pelagius went mad anyway.