Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

As far as Azura and the Tribunal go... Regardless what the Dunmer liked or did not, the Tribunal were bad for them. They protected and pampered them driving them off the path of Veloth and the legitimate identity of the Velothi people. Azura even tried to WARN them about this from the onset by changing their skin, showing them that they different from the Altmer, but the Tribunal was betraying that difference. Even Vivec realised this in time, and actively helped to bring down the Tribunal Temple when Nerevar returned, finally sealing ALMSIVI's fate by releasing the Ministry. Azura also ensured the safety of the WORLD by sending her champion to defeat the Sharmat, whose blight would have plunged the world into eternal stagnancy. She's a bit of a possessive, moody b&@*$, sure, but she's done more good than most of the Aedra have. Hell, Akatosh sent a genocidal robot back in time, and Dibella had Reman's nursemaids feed him his own semen.

 

Sheogorath's an odd cookie. Part of the beauty of what they did in ESO was show a different side of him. Yes, he's madness, but madness is inevitable. Sheogorath doesn't CAUSE it, but he certainly attracts those with it. And what does he do? He takes those people who succumb to madness to a place where they A; can't hurt others, and B; can live in whatever delusion they desire. The Shivering Isles are literally a massive live-in care facility for the mentally ill.

 

As for Meridia... So what? Meridia chose the side of those that had served her for thousands of years. Whoop de-do. You act like the Alessian Slave Revolt was somehow a black and white conflict, and that the world somehow got better afterwards. The Alessian's were horrible people who engaged in genocide, religious subjugation, enslaved native populations and FREAKING BROKE THE DRAGON. It's also worth noting that Alessia accepted Ayleid allies, and didn't outlaw slavery. The rebellion (oddly like Skyrim's own) wasn't some grand statement about freedom and rights, but a political struggle about power and authority. As such, Meridia's side in it was perfectly legitimate.

[Elimc]

@Lachdonin

 

The only reason Azura defeated Dagoth Ur was to get revenge on the Tribunal, not because she is nice. Why would the Nords want Dunmer building temples to a Daedra who will go to any lengths to get revenge in their city? Sure, the Dunmer have a reason to build temples to her, but if she will probably kill someone, should the Nords have to let them build a temple in their city?

 

Well, in Skyrim the Mad Woman in the wilderness just runs around asking you to Wabbajack her, so he doesn't take everyone to a place where they are safe. And how do you know if she was driven insane by Sheogorath or not?

 

Meridia helped the Alyieds to try to put down the Allesian rebellion, which, at least before the early 300's of the first era, did not involve chasing the Aleyids out of Cyrodil, and even when they were, it seems that they were forced to leave, instead of being executed. It was not a political struggle, but a slave rebellion. And Meridia was on the side of the slavers.

[kimmera]

@Lachdonin

 

The only reason Azura defeated Dagoth Ur was to get revenge on the Tribunal, not because she is nice. Why would the Nords want Dunmer building temples to a Daedra who will go to any lengths to get revenge in their city? Sure, the Dunmer have a reason to build temples to her, but if she will probably kill someone, should the Nords have to let them build a temple in their city?

 

Well, in Skyrim the Mad Woman in the wilderness just runs around asking you to Wabbajack her, so he doesn't take everyone to a place where they are safe. And how do you know if she was driven insane by Sheogorath or not?

 

Meridia helped the Alyieds to try to put down the Allesian rebellion, which, at least before the early 300's of the first era, did not involve chasing the Aleyids out of Cyrodil, and even when they were, it seems that they were forced to leave, instead of being executed. It was not a political struggle, but a slave rebellion. And Meridia was on the side of the slavers.

 

1) She saved the world through her actions.

2) She was the wronged party. The Tribunal had usurped her place through their machinations, and in a way that drove two of them mad. In the dialogue in Morrowind, Azura cites that as part of why they had to be stopped. It wasn't just revenge.

 

No, Sheogorath doesn't take every mad person to his realm. Why do you assume wanting to be wabbajacked is a particularly bad kind of madness? You and I play games such as Skyrim where we play through avatars. The Wabbajack is completely non-lethal and the transformations are temporary. Sounds like potentially fun, actually.

 

And God was on the side of the tribes of Israel. And Zeus was on this side of his worshipers (and frankly, the Greek gods were often as capricious as the Daedra). I don't think there has been any diety in the history of human theology that has been 100% benevolent, even some of the nicer ones like Odin or Thor.

 

Talos followers haven't always been benevolent. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Talos_Cult

[Lachdonin]

It was not a political struggle, but a slave rebellion. And Meridia was on the side of the slavers.

It was a slave rebellion, yes, by those who kept their own slaves. The Alessians were no better than the Ayleids, and kept their own slaves, as did thekr Nord allies. Meridia chose the side of the savers who worshipped her, against the slavers who did not. It was not some altruistic revolt to end slavery, nor were the sides clear cut between good and evil. It was a politically struggle between the ruling dynasties of the Ayleid Heartlands, and the fringes of Cyrodiil. It had an element of religion to it as well, as a conflict between the Aedra and the Daedra though in that regard the Aedra were by far the worse contender, sending f*#@ing Murder.EXE to serve Alessia. Freedom and an end to slavery didn't even really enter into it, it's just refered to as the Slave Revolt because Alessia's early forces were mostly slaves.

 

Sure, the Dunmer have a reason to build temples to her, but if she will probably kill someone, should the Nords have to let them build a temple in their city?

 

Why should anyone be aloud to build any temples to any TES Diety anywhere, if being benevolent and wholesome is a criteria? Akatosh and Kennarith are responsible for Pelinal, one of the worst atrocities in history. Dibella is responsible for the literal sexual abuse of Reman. Reman himself was a debauched rapist. Talos was a regicide, a murderer, and a egotistical perpetrator of genocide.

 

Every deity in TES (with the possible exception of Mara) has a dark side. Every ASPECT of every deity has a dark side. Claiming that one is somehow 'better' than another is silly, particularly when we KNOW one has saved the world, even if only to prove a point.

 

As for why the Nords should let the Dunmer have a shrine to Azura? Oh, I don't know...Maybe because their whole trumped up call is religious freedom? Kinda hypocritical to say 'We want to worship our regicidal mass murderer, but you can't worship you mother goddess).

Edited August 6, 2015 by Lachdonin

[MidbossVyers]

Thing is, Azura worship is not illegal. In terms of building a physical temple, I see more problems with physical space than the law.

[kimmera]

Thing is, Azura worship is not illegal. In terms of building a physical temple, I see more problems with physical space than the law.

 

The point is that it isn't illegal but Daedric temples still get driven out of cities due to intolerance. Freedom of religion doesn't mean much unless backed by law.

[CaptainPatch]

 

The point is that it isn't illegal but Daedric temples still get driven out of cities due to intolerance. Freedom of religion doesn't mean much unless backed by law.

How does that get demonstrated that it's a fact, rather than just simply a case of "Everybody knows..."? Have there been several Daedric temples built in cities that have been destroyed by the city's residents? Why do the people of Windhelm, if they hate Daedric worship so much, gone out and destroyed the Boaethiah shrine that is active nearby? The people of Winterhold tearing down the Azura temple nearby? The people of Solitude tearing down the Meridia temple nearby? Etc.

[Elimc]

@Lachdonin

 

Where is it recorded that the Alessians owned slaves? I can't find any books that say that. I know that they drove out the Aylieds in 1E361, but that was over a hundred years after the initial rebellion, and Alessia was almost certainly dead by then. I don't see how you can say the Aylieds were right when they were fighting to keep humans as slaves.

 

Yes all the Aedra and Daedra have dark sides, but the Aedra are much less likely to kill you.

 

Talos may have murdered people when he was Tiber Septim, but how many people has he killed since he became Talos? And how many Talos worshipers go around killing people to sacrifice them to Talos?

[kimmera]

 

 

The point is that it isn't illegal but Daedric temples still get driven out of cities due to intolerance. Freedom of religion doesn't mean much unless backed by law.

How does that get demonstrated that it's a fact, rather than just simply a case of "Everybody knows..."? Have there been several Daedric temples built in cities that have been destroyed by the city's residents? Why do the people of Windhelm, if they hate Daedric worship so much, gone out and destroyed the Boaethiah shrine that is active nearby? The people of Winterhold tearing down the Azura temple nearby? The people of Solitude tearing down the Meridia temple nearby? Etc.

 

 

"Daedra worship is not prohibited by law in Cyrodiil. Primarily this is a result of the Imperial Charter granted theMages Guild permitting the summoning of Daedra. Nonetheless, chapel and public opinion is so strongly against Daedra worship that those who practice Daedric rituals do so in secret."

 

Modern Heretics, Oblivion expansion (which is likely why it doesn't mention Skyrim) http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Modern_Heretics

 

The evidence in Skyrim is that the shrines are similarly out of cities. It may be that Skyrim's policy is more 'they are ok as long as they aren't in plain sight of the masses' but even so. The Boethiah shrine might not be that hard to find if you are a typical dragonborn, checking out anything that looks interesting but merchants and normal travellers are the opposite. The roads are risky enough as they are.

[LeddBate]

 

 

The evidence in Skyrim is that the shrines are similarly out of cities. It may be that Skyrim's policy is more 'they are ok as long as they aren't in plain sight of the masses' but even so. The Boethiah shrine might not be that hard to find if you are a typical dragonborn, checking out anything that looks interesting but merchants and normal travellers are the opposite. The roads are risky enough as they are.

 

 

Don't forget the whole "world/game scale" thing. That temple to Boethiah might look like it's less than a quarter of a mile away from Windhelm from our point of view, but in game scale that's probably (roughly) equal to five or more miles away. Given that it's pretty far up the mountain to boot, that is a heck of a long way from Windhelm. And likely not really visible (or even widely known.)