Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[jukkka1]

 

@Jukkka1 : Nords that were hauled off were hauled for disobeying the treaty and thus disobeying Imperial Law.

 

 

True, but even jarl Elisif doesn't obey that law. If the (future) queen doesn't obey the law, there is no law. So the law is only an excuse for allowing thalmor's actions, not justification for the actions. Elisif allows her people to be killed for the same acts she (and likely a very large portion of the nords) also commits. Any way I look at this it just seems wrong, and a rebellion to put an end to it seems righteous. The nords who side with the empire might be thinking along the lines that allowing some evil now will prevent possible greater evil in the future. But there's a line where that "some evil" is just too much to be ignored, and those who argue for the option to let the evil happen become villains. Seems to me that line in Skyrim is clearly crossed. Maybe more people would agree with me if the actions of the thalmor were actually shown in game instead of just talked about.

 

Maybe this is a classic case of "smart and wrong" versus "good and stupid."

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

But the AD was out of troops, or they would have conquered Hammerfell easily.

 

The reasons he gives for the Empire not being able to continue the war is the huge losses they took, not anything else.

 

The troops wouldn't need to march out of Cyrodil, and if they had been able to supply ten legions, then they should be able to supply two without a problem, even if southern Cyrodil had been destroyed by the AD.

 

Southern Hammerfell was ravaged, but the rest of it was not touched by the war, so why do you think they couldn't have rebuilt. If Saadia is telling the truth, then the AD has taken over Hammerfell, but if she is lying Hammerfell is still resisting the AD. The AD wouldn't have been able to mount a serious attack on Cyrodil after the Battle of the Red Ring without withdrawing from Hammerfell, which would allow the Empire to pull some local forces from Hammerfell to help.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

The Legions in Hammerfell had stopped the Aldmeri advance before the Battle of the Red Ring, and you should really read this book if you want to know about the Great War. They hadn't defeated the AD, but they had stopped them from moving forwards. And unlike the Romans Pyrrhus faced, the AD did not have a huge supply of reinforcements waiting to destroy the Empire.

 

Again, Hammerfell was never a primary objective. It was a means to an end. When Hammerfell declared independence, it became even less of a strategic concern.

 

The war was never about expansion. Their goal is unmaking the world, not conquering it. Talos is a target (by way of cutting worship to him). The Elder Scrolls held by the Empire were a target. If they learned that the Elder Scroll of Time is in Skyrim, the AD might not have been so ready to stand down.

 

Hammerfell was a means to cut off Imperial support and to cover their own flank.

 

And stopping an advance against a foe who had already taken their objectives (the ports of Hammerfell), who wasn't committing their full force at the time is not the level of victory you claim it to be. Moreover, they hadn't yet 'stopped the advance.' Again, not sure why I have to keep quoting your source of evidence to refute you.....

 

173:

 

"In Hammerfell, Imperial fortunes took a turn for the better. In early 4E 173, a Forebear army from Sentinel broke the siege of Hegathe (a Crown city), leading to the reconciliation of the two factions. Despite this, Lady Arannelya's main army succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert. The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance."

 

 

174:

 

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

 

 

 

 

Late 174 was during the Battle of the Red Ring (which was happening that winter). Decianus had returned to Cyrodiil already, minus the troops he left behind. Again Decianus told the Emperor that said troops were too weak to come with him. He wasn't about to say 'They were too weak to come with me but so strong they are defeating the AD armies in Hammerfell on their own.' The Emperor's own Hammerfell general was thus feeding him misinformation.

 

Further evidence as to why the AD didn't reinforce Cyrodiil to a greater degree and that they felt their objectives had been met:

 

During the winter of 4E 174-175, the Thalmor seem to have believed that the war in Cyrodiil was all but over. They made several attempts to negotiate with Titus II. The Emperor encouraged them in their belief that he was preparing to surrender; meanwhile, he gathered his forces to retake the Imperial City.

 

 

The AD were willing to offer terms to the Emperor while AD forces still held Imperial City. The war was not one of expansion. There is no reason to believe they had no reserves. That is a huge assumption on your part, with no basis for fact.

[CaptainPatch]

I never could understand the Tamriel calendar. There's "late 174" and there would be "later than that 174". Overall, the Thalmor had achieved their objectives of securing all of Hammerfall's southern ports, with the exception of Hegathe, which was besieged. Later, the Redguards managed to break the siege of Hegathe, but in balance, they lost Skaven. Win some; lose some. But in the case of the Redguards, it was win ONE, and lose some, and lose some, and lose some, and lose some more. In overview, I really cannot see how that can be interpreted as, "We're winning in Hammerfell!" Claiming that they had "stopped the Thalmor advance" when in fact the Thalmor already had what they came for is kind of disingenuous.

 

There really wasn't any "bright spark of hope" for the Emperor to see after the Battle of the Red Ring had concluded.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

"the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun."

 

To unmake the world, the AD first needs to conquer it so they have free access to the Towers.

 

The forces in Hammerfell drove Lady Arannelya's army across the desert. What happened Lord Naarfin's army did not effect her army, so the troops in Hammerfell were not greatly effected by the Battle of the Red Ring until the Empire surrendered.

 

The Great War says that "the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.", so I don't see how you can say otherwise. The Redguards had stopped the Aldmeri advance and were about to drive them back across the desert, which they managed to do even without some of their men (who were ordered back to Cyrodil). The AD hadn't won, and while they did occupy about half of Hammerfell, they had stretched themselves to thin and were about to be driven back.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

"the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun."

 

To unmake the world, the AD first needs to conquer it so they have free access to the Towers.

 

The forces in Hammerfell drove Lady Arannelya's army across the desert. What happened Lord Naarfin's army did not effect her army, so the troops in Hammerfell were not greatly effected by the Battle of the Red Ring until the Empire surrendered.

 

The Great War says that "the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.", so I don't see how you can say otherwise. The Redguards had stopped the Aldmeri advance and were about to drive them back across the desert, which they managed to do even without some of their men (who were ordered back to Cyrodil). The AD hadn't won, and while they did occupy about half of Hammerfell, they had stretched themselves to thin and were about to be driven back.

 

That is the conclusion of an Imperial soldier, though with no inside Aldmeri knowledge. It is far more reasonable to conclude that the Aldmeri had stopped concentrating on Hammerfell, leaving a single army there. They had already achieved their main objectives in Hammerfell. They could have waited longer to attack Cyrodiil and instead focused more of their might against Hammerfell in the first place, but didn't.

 

And I was talking about their immediate objectves. It is said repeatedly that they take a long view.

 

They manipulated Ulfric into starting the civil war in the first place.

[CaptainPatch]

It is clearly stated that the AD's objective in Hammerfall was to seize the southern ports. However, after the Redguards retreated across the Alikr Desert, it would not be uncommon for an overenthusiastic commander to deviate from the planned strategy by pursuing a retreating enemy. This is apparently what Lady Arennelya did, and by doing so captured Skaven. [An "indecisive battle" followed by a significant city being captured by the enemy? That sounds like spin to me. Like saying "made a strategic withdrawal" instead of "was routed from the field of battle."] It wouldn't be at all unusual to have had the Thalmor High Command message "We didn't want Skaven! It's too distant and the supply line across the desert is untenable. Return to our initial objective area immediately!" Then seeing the Thalmor withdraw back across the desert, the author describes it as, "The Redguards drove the Thalmor forces back across the desert." After all, he doesn't describe the withdrawal as occurring after some precipitous battle,.... or after any battle at all for that matter. The only battle north of the desert that is mentioned is that "indecisive" battle which ended with Skaven being captured.

Edited August 17, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[nekollx]

ah the civil war, you know th Epire is usually my go to mainly because if you anyone but a nord trying to jointhe stormcloak really drives you away, i rember on one plaything i was playing a half Breton, daughter of Lucky Lorenz who after an misunderstanding or 2 wakes up in the abandoned prison (i want to escape this cell - live another life) that i like to imagine that the big riot that the journals mention happen recently while Pris was unconsious, anyway Lucky (a vanila dead npc BTW) is a loyal nord and storcloak and so when she comes upon his journal and resolves to finish building the house he was building for them she wants to join the storm cloak and hates imperials, but even the most diehard Stormcloak is going to have their resolve worn by Windhelm and Ulfric as every second in the palace and city just reminds you of how much they don't want non nords.

 

The Legion however is far more welcoming and opening to any race or gender, and Rikke of sets Tulius blindspots as mention and really in the end i cant blame Tullius for trying to excecute me (for the vanilla start which i didnt use but in LAL he stil lthink you were one) clearly he isnt aware of every face and you were caught (as far as he knows) with war rebels, but once you get past that he is VERY understanding, heck as a solder you can talk to him and get a release leter to free Thonar Grey-mane from Northwatch keep, he knows dealing with the thalmor will be a pain but its clear Tullius is willing to pardon anyone who proves theirs a good person, he pardons you and he pardons a freaking stormcloak from THALMORe custody. Tullius is a good man.

[nekollx]

 

 

@Jukkka1 : Nords that were hauled off were hauled for disobeying the treaty and thus disobeying Imperial Law.

 

 

True, but even jarl Elisif doesn't obey that law. If the (future) queen doesn't obey the law, there is no law. So the law is only an excuse for allowing thalmor's actions, not justification for the actions. Elisif allows her people to be killed for the same acts she (and likely a very large portion of the nords) also commits. Any way I look at this it just seems wrong, and a rebellion to put an end to it seems righteous. The nords who side with the empire might be thinking along the lines that allowing some evil now will prevent possible greater evil in the future. But there's a line where that "some evil" is just too much to be ignored, and those who argue for the option to let the evil happen become villains. Seems to me that line in Skyrim is clearly crossed. Maybe more people would agree with me if the actions of the thalmor were actually shown in game instead of just talked about.

 

Maybe this is a classic case of "smart and wrong" versus "good and stupid."

 

again this is mainly Ulfric fault, before he started his rebellion (and their are a ton of NPCs that support this, even Alvor in the begining) Everyone had their little shirnes to Talos and worshiped him but Ulfric had to shot it from the rooftops and kill the high king, the empire for a long time had been ignoreing the Thamor decree but it was understood by everyone that the thalmor were a looming threat so dont shake the boat until we are strong enough to drive them out, you cna worship but just show some restraint.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch

 

The Aldmeri had two armies (that fought in the war), and one of them invaded Cyrodil while the other invaded Hammerfell. How do you know what their main objective in Hammerfell was? It seems to me like it was to conquer it, but then when they started losing and the army in Cyrodil started winning it became to force the Empire to surrender. If it was just to take all of the ports in Hammerfell, then why were they attacking Skaven, which was not a port city, before taking Hegathe, which was a port city? And if the Redguards really were about to be defeated in Hammerfell, then how did they win the war?

 

They manipulated him into starting the war, but they do not want him to win it. They want him to drag it out as long as possible, and then lose. If Ulfric wins the war quickly he messes up all of their plans.

 

@nekollx

 

Ulfric is fine with anyone joining his army, in fact, one of the reasons some of the Nords don't like the Dunmer is that none of them have joined the army. There are two different Altmer with shops in the city, and a Dunmer who owns a farm just outside it. Do you think any of this would happen if Ulfric was racist? Also, Ulfric has asked for help from the Bretons in High Rock, so I don't see any real evidence of him being racist. Even the Altmer who runs a stall in the market says the Dunmer are responsible for the fact that they are so poor, not Ulfric. And the Dunmer are most definitely racist, read "Dunmer of Skyrim", or listen to the one who says he won't care about the butcher until a dark elf is killed. The Argonians are kept outside the city because there are no empty buildings and because the Dunmer would probably murder them in their sleep.

 

Alvor says everyone had a shrine of Talos in their BASEMENT. Talos worship was still persecuted, just not to the degree it is now.

 

Also, you can just edit your post instead of double posting.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Elimc

[kimmera]

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch

 

The Aldmeri had two armies (that fought in the war), and one of them invaded Cyrodil while the other invaded Hammerfell. How do you know what their main objective in Hammerfell was? It seems to me like it was to conquer it, but then when they started losing and the army in Cyrodil started winning it became to force the Empire to surrender. If it was just to take all of the ports in Hammerfell, then why were they attacking Skaven, which was not a port city, before taking Hegathe, which was a port city? And if the Redguards really were about to be defeated in Hammerfell, then how did they win the war?

 

They manipulated him into starting the war, but they do not want him to win it. They want him to drag it out as long as possible, and then lose. If Ulfric wins the war quickly he messes up all of their plans.

 

@nekollx

 

Ulfric is fine with anyone joining his army, in fact, one of the reasons some of the Nords don't like the Dunmer is that none of them have joined the army. There are two different Altmer with shops in the city, and a Dunmer who owns a farm just outside it. Do you think any of this would happen if Ulfric was racist? Also, Ulfric has asked for help from the Bretons in High Rock, so I don't see any real evidence of him being racist. Even the Altmer who runs a stall in the market says the Dunmer are responsible for the fact that they are so poor, not Ulfric. And the Dunmer are most definitely racist, read "Dunmer of Skyrim", or listen to the one who says he won't care about the butcher until a dark elf is killed. The Argonians are kept outside the city because there are no empty buildings and because the Dunmer would probably murder them in their sleep.

 

Alvor says everyone had a shrine of Talos in their BASEMENT. Talos worship was still persecuted, just not to the degree it is now.

 

Also, you can just edit your post instead of double posting.

 

Having two fronts does not mean there was equal commitment to both.

 

Cyrodiil being the primary objective makes sense on too many levels. Imperial City is the capital of the Empire, had a vast store of Elder Scrolls and the White Gold tower. It has vastly more strategic importance than Hammerfell. Furthermore, they could have committed the troops they sent against Cyrodiil to reinforce Hammerfell instead.

 

Pressing on to consolidate would be standard procedure. The fact that they did not reinforce to do so indicates the lack of priority. You also seem to have your timing wrong. In 171, we have this entry

 

The greatly outnumbered Imperial legions retreated across the Alik'r Desert in the now-famous March of Thirst.

 

 

In 172, the invasion of Cyrodiil began, while they were still winning in Hammerfell.

 

It appears now that the initial Aldmeri objective was in fact the conquest of Hammerfell, and that the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun. However, the surprising initial success of Lord Naarifin's attack led the Thalmor to believe that the Empire was weaker than they had thought. The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years.

 

 

It wasn't until after they changed priorities to Cyrodiil that Hammerfell started to push back.

 

"Dunmer of Skyrim" expresses the Dunmer prejudice as a reaction to Nord prejudice. As we have discussed, that Altmer in the market has shady connections, so yes, perhaps Elves can fit in if they are willing to pine the right pockets, and even then get small stall.

 

The only evidence of there ever being anything more than shrines in basements is the shrine in Markarth and one (removed) representation at the universal shrine in Solitude. Shrines in basements isn't much of a change from that.