Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Both the Aldmeri armies were still advancing up until the battle of the red ring, so the one in Hammerfell must have had enough support to be able to continue the attack, even if it didn't recieve as much as the on in Cyrodil.

 

The Elder Scrolls have never been successfully used to help someone win a war, at least not on record, probably because they show either a possible future, or the past, or the present, and the person who reads the scroll does not know which one he is seeing. The White Gold Tower is probably deactivated after the Oblivion Crisis, so it is useless to the AD. Taking Hammerfell provides them access to the Admantine Tower, which is still active. And they did not decide to attack the Imperial city until after they started losing, so that was not a factor in their attacks until much later in the war.

 

Did you read the Great War? It says that the AD had been stopped in Hammerfell by 4E173, which was before they shifted priorities to the Imperial City.

 

Well, Nurelion doesn't have any shady connections, but he does have an alchemy store. And even if Niranye is a thief, there was a time when she didn't work for the guild or the Summerset Shadows so she could have been kicked out, and she wasn't. Beyln Hlaalu owns a farm, has a nord employee, and says "The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work."

 

Now people can't wear Talos amulets, talk about Talos, or have a shrine in their room or kitchen. They have to just have a shrine hidden in their basement, or face punishment.

[kimmera]

Again, the AD goal isn't winning the war. It is undoing the world. The war was just a step towards that.

 

They started their advance into Cyrodiil in 172, not 173 and Cyrodiil (and the "complete overthrow of the Empire") became their priority 'over the next two years' i.e. 172 through 174.

 

Nurelion is a little off. Niranye wouldn't have needed guild connections to figure out who to bribe, and Beyln is outside the city, where even the Argonians are allowed to operate.

 

People can talk about Talos. If people couldn't talk about Talos then the Thalmor couldn't ask people about Talos worshipers, since that is talking about Talos. There is no evidence of the Thalmor going literally door to door. Thorald Grey-mane was only arrested due to a Battleborn tip, and even then his disappearance is described as an 'abduction' and the accusation seems to be that he was working with the Stormcloaks rather than that he was a Talos worshiper. Furthermore, apparently if the Empire wins the civil war, the Dragonborn can get Thorald pardoned.

[nekollx]

Again, the AD goal isn't winning the war. It is undoing the world. The war was just a step towards that.

 

They started their advance into Cyrodiil in 172, not 173 and Cyrodiil (and the "complete overthrow of the Empire") became their priority 'over the next two years' i.e. 172 through 174.

 

Nurelion is a little off. Niranye wouldn't have needed guild connections to figure out who to bribe, and Beyln is outside the city, where even the Argonians are allowed to operate.

 

People can talk about Talos. If people couldn't talk about Talos then the Thalmor couldn't ask people about Talos worshipers, since that is talking about Talos. There is no evidence of the Thalmor going literally door to door. Thorald Grey-mane was only arrested due to a Battleborn tip, and even then his disappearance is described as an 'abduction' and the accusation seems to be that he was working with the Stormcloaks rather than that he was a Talos worshiper. Furthermore, apparently if the Empire wins the civil war, the Dragonborn can get Thorald pardoned.

heck you don't even need to win, you could get the release paper after shortly joining the legion but tulius doenst point out its a headach, still it's clear the empire doesnt see Talos and the storcloaks as Ireeedemable

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch

 

The Aldmeri had two armies (that fought in the war), and one of them invaded Cyrodil while the other invaded Hammerfell. How do you know what their main objective in Hammerfell was? It seems to me like it was to conquer it, but then when they started losing and the army in Cyrodil started winning it became to force the Empire to surrender. If it was just to take all of the ports in Hammerfell, then why were they attacking Skaven, which was not a port city, before taking Hegathe, which was a port city? And if the Redguards really were about to be defeated in Hammerfell, then how did they win the war?

From the same source you cited: It appears now that the initial Aldmeri objective was in fact the conquest of Hammerfell, and that the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun. However, the surprising initial success of Lord Naarifin's attack led the Thalmor to believe that the Empire was weaker than they had thought. And In Hammerfell, the Thalmor were content to consolidate their gains as they took control of the whole southern coastline, which was in fact their stated objective in the ultimatum delivered to the Emperor.

 

As the Thalmor captured enemy territory, it would be necessary to deploy garrison units in order to keep what they captured. Then there was also the larger force that was needed to maintain the siege of Hegathe. What was left of the Thalmor mobile force in Hammerfall under the command of Lady Arennelya obviously saw the Imperials retreating across the Alikr Desert. And as I said, it is not at all uncommon for field commanders (which is what Lady Arennelya was) to "smell blood in the water" and decide to pursue a fleeing enemy. That pursuit resulted in the "indecisive" battle, which despite being "indecisive", prompted the Imperials to abandon Skaven. After that point, there are no accounts of additional battles north of the desert. But for whatever reason, Lady Arennelya abandoned Skaven and headed back to the southern coastlands. (Apparently no one thought Skaven was worth keeping.) The best explanation for that withdrawal is that either Lady Arennelya herself decided that the desert made supply logistics untenable (which I think is unlikely, because field commanders always hate giving up real estate they fought to gain) or else she received orders from Higher Up telling here to get back to someplace where they could keep her forces supplied.

 

As to why they "won the war", it's because the Thalmor let them win. No sources can lay out just what the Thalmor High Command's strategy is. But the situation in Hammerfell was more like the Thalmor just withdrawing in good order rather than the Redguards hammering on frantic retreating Thalmor soldiers trying desperately to board the last departing transport ships. Obviously, the Thalmor High Command concluded that those forces in Hammerfall would be more useful elsewhere. (Like giving the Empire the coup de grace after the Empire kept disintegrating in the aftermath of the WGC. And given just how much longer elves live, that "after" could be a century or more later and still be doable.)

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The AD can't undo the world if they can't access the Towers, and they can't access the Towers unless they win the war. So while they want to undo the world, the only way to do that is to win the war.

 

Okay, I was wrong about the main objective of the AD during 172 and 173, but during that time they were still trying to capture Hammerfell. And even when they threw all of their reserves at it, they still were defeated. Imagine if they had to split their remaining forces in half, do you think they would have been able to take Cyrodil or Hammerfell?

 

Nurelion still owns a shop in Windhelm, even though he is an elf. And Belyn Hlaalu couldn't operate his farm without the Jarl's consent. And the Argonians are kept outside for their protection.

 

I meant people couldn't freely talk about worshiping Talos, not that they would be arrested for saying his name. Their is evidence the Empire persecuted Talos worship, just not on pain of death. And about getting Thorald pardoned, like you said, "Things that an npc might have said if other coding was different don't count,". You can't say that Tullius giving Thorald a pardon counts when the game's coding prevents him from issuing that pardon.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

How could flat out losing a war ever help the AD in any way? I could understand if they were allowed to maintain some sort of presence in Hammerfell, like they do in Cyrodil, but that didn't happen. They were forced to withdraw after five years of bloody fighting. If they were going to let the Redguards win, why didn't they do it before they lost hundreds, if not thousands, of mer in Hammerfell? The Empire still has a strong army, and I can see why the AD is waiting to attack it, but as far as we know the Crowns and Forbears are getting along in Hammerfell, so why would the AD wait and let them rebuild unless the AD needs to do some recovering of its own. You keep saying that elves live longer than men, but a side effect of this is that they will reproduce slower, which means they would need much longer to recover than the Empire or Cyrodil.

[nekollx]

@Kimmera

 

The AD can't undo the world if they can't access the Towers, and they can't access the Towers unless they win the war. So while they want to undo the world, the only way to do that is to win the war.

 

Okay, I was wrong about the main objective of the AD during 172 and 173, but during that time they were still trying to capture Hammerfell. And even when they threw all of their reserves at it, they still were defeated. Imagine if they had to split their remaining forces in half, do you think they would have been able to take Cyrodil or Hammerfell?

 

Nurelion still owns a shop in Windhelm, even though he is an elf. And Belyn Hlaalu couldn't operate his farm without the Jarl's consent. And the Argonians are kept outside for their protection.

 

I meant people couldn't freely talk about worshiping Talos, not that they would be arrested for saying his name. Their is evidence the Empire persecuted Talos worship, just not on pain of death. And about getting Thorald pardoned, like you said, "Things that an npc might have said if other coding was different don't count,". You can't say that Tullius giving Thorald a pardon counts when the game's coding prevents him from issuing that pardon.

 

the thing with tulius is that itns not that he isnt program to give a pardon, he is but a BUG prevents the quest from procing just like how last night on my stream the game failed to proc on the Havnorak dungeon by your logic since it didnt register all 3 vesals then Havnorak isn't suposed to be revived

[Elimc]

@nekollx

 

But unlike your bug, there is no clear evidence that Bethesda wanted the player to be able to get a pardon from Tullius. They might changed their minds after starting work on the quest, and decided to leave it how it is. Or maybe they just never got around to fixing it. Unless you can find proof of that, we will have to go with what is in game, not what might have been in the game.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The AD can't undo the world if they can't access the Towers, and they can't access the Towers unless they win the war. So while they want to undo the world, the only way to do that is to win the war.

 

Okay, I was wrong about the main objective of the AD during 172 and 173, but during that time they were still trying to capture Hammerfell. And even when they threw all of their reserves at it, they still were defeated. Imagine if they had to split their remaining forces in half, do you think they would have been able to take Cyrodil or Hammerfell?

 

Nurelion still owns a shop in Windhelm, even though he is an elf. And Belyn Hlaalu couldn't operate his farm without the Jarl's consent. And the Argonians are kept outside for their protection.

 

I meant people couldn't freely talk about worshiping Talos, not that they would be arrested for saying his name. Their is evidence the Empire persecuted Talos worship, just not on pain of death. And about getting Thorald pardoned, like you said, "Things that an npc might have said if other coding was different don't count,". You can't say that Tullius giving Thorald a pardon counts when the game's coding prevents him from issuing that pardon.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

How could flat out losing a war ever help the AD in any way? I could understand if they were allowed to maintain some sort of presence in Hammerfell, like they do in Cyrodil, but that didn't happen. They were forced to withdraw after five years of bloody fighting. If they were going to let the Redguards win, why didn't they do it before they lost hundreds, if not thousands, of mer in Hammerfell? The Empire still has a strong army, and I can see why the AD is waiting to attack it, but as far as we know the Crowns and Forbears are getting along in Hammerfell, so why would the AD wait and let them rebuild unless the AD needs to do some recovering of its own. You keep saying that elves live longer than men, but a side effect of this is that they will reproduce slower, which means they would need much longer to recover than the Empire or Cyrodil.

 

They didn't throw their reserves at Hammerfell. There is no indication that they reinforced Hammerfell at all. They retreated but were not pursued out of Hammerfell. Hammerfell signed their own treaty.

 

They wouldn't have had to split their remaining forces in half because we know from The Great War that the Empire considered itself spent. Maybe on paper they still had troops, but they were in no condition to carry on the fight, per the legion commander who wrote that book telling us what we do know.

 

Nurelion is an obsessed old man, and says nothing about his situation or that of the Dunmer that I can discern. It may simply be that an alchemy shop is deemed more important than the racial issues.Nurelion and Niranye are both Altmer. There is a history of bad relations between Morrowind and Skyrim, and as well between Morrowind and the Sommerset Isles. It is also worth considering Ulfric's correspondence with the Thalmor, which we know about from the Thalmor dossier on him. Ulfric might think that if he breaks with the Empire, that the Thalmor might leave Skyrim alone similar to what has happened with Hammerfell, so might not be as prejudiced against the Altmer as against the Dunmer, who have been a more direct foe of Skyrim.

 

I am not sure that you understand coding. For there to be any ability to issue pardons, it has to be put in the game. For there to be any ability for those pardons to matter, that has to be put in. It is far more likely that they intended to fully put the ability in but failed to finish completely than they put it fully in, but failed to remove it completely. Regardless, you have to go with what is in game or else we may as well end the discussion on the basis that nothing in game was completely intended.

 

The AD didn't flat out lose. They gained every elder scroll from the WGT, ravaged both Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, got Hammerfell to leave the Empire and started a civil war in Skyrim to further drain Imperial resources, and if you have your way, they also will have gotten Skyrim to leave the Empire. They also got the blades not just disbanded but for all intents and purposes, removed from existence. The remaining Blades have forsaken the Empire to chase dragons, even though all they really did to help the Dragonborn was point him in the right direction a couple times. Proof of their defection is the fact that they refuse membership even to the Dragonborn unless he kills Paarthurnax.

 

I'd say the AD accomplished rather a lot.

 

And I still dispute that they necessarily reproduce slower.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

So what was the AD doing in Hammerfell for those five years? If they were going to retreat, why didn't they retreat before they lost hundreds, if not thousands, of mer fighting in the desert. Did they just leave the army that was already in Hammerfell to be destroyed? It makes no sense to think that the AD fought for five years in Hammerfell with no intention of actually winning. The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai led to the the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. It was not a surrender like the WGC, it was a peace treaty that probably just said the AD and Hammerfell wouldn't invade each other. Their is no evidence that the Thalmor have any presence in Hammerfell.

 

Regardless, if the AD couldn't invade one province, they couldn't invade two either.

 

Nurelion owns a shop in the city, which wouldn't happen if Ulfric was racist. And Beyln Hlaalu, who is a Dark elf, says: "The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work." and "Too many dark elves in Windhelm complain about the way we're treated. What good does complaining do?". He thinks the Dunmer are at least partially responsible for the way they live, much like Niranye, who says "The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum." If a Dunmer and an Altmer both think the Dark Elves are the ones keeping themselves in the Grey Quarter, then why would you ignore them? Belyn is certainly not biased against Dunmer, since he is one.

 

The Elder Scrolls might have been moved from the WGT when the Emperor fled the city, or they might have been captured by the AD, but kept in the city and recaptured by the Empire during the Battle of the Red Ring. Also, like I keep saying, the Elder Scrolls have never helped anyone win a war before, no one seems to be able to use them properly except vampires and Dragonborn. I meant the AD flat out lost in Hammerfell, which they did. They commited thousands of troops to taking it, and were forced to withdraw without gaining anything. And all that you just said only happened because the Empire surrendered. If they hadn't, then they would be fine.

 

If elves reproduced at the same speed as men, but lived ten times longer, then they would soon rule the world just because there would be millions of elves and only thousands of men.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

So what was the AD doing in Hammerfell for those five years? If they were going to retreat, why didn't they retreat before they lost hundreds, if not thousands, of mer fighting in the desert. Did they just leave the army that was already in Hammerfell to be destroyed? It makes no sense to think that the AD fought for five years in Hammerfell with no intention of actually winning. The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai led to the the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. It was not a surrender like the WGC, it was a peace treaty that probably just said the AD and Hammerfell wouldn't invade each other. Their is no evidence that the Thalmor have any presence in Hammerfell.

 

Regardless, if the AD couldn't invade one province, they couldn't invade two either.

 

Nurelion owns a shop in the city, which wouldn't happen if Ulfric was racist. And Beyln Hlaalu, who is a Dark elf, says: "The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work." and "Too many dark elves in Windhelm complain about the way we're treated. What good does complaining do?". He thinks the Dunmer are at least partially responsible for the way they live, much like Niranye, who says "The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum." If a Dunmer and an Altmer both think the Dark Elves are the ones keeping themselves in the Grey Quarter, then why would you ignore them? Belyn is certainly not biased against Dunmer, since he is one.

 

The Elder Scrolls might have been moved from the WGT when the Emperor fled the city, or they might have been captured by the AD, but kept in the city and recaptured by the Empire during the Battle of the Red Ring. Also, like I keep saying, the Elder Scrolls have never helped anyone win a war before, no one seems to be able to use them properly except vampires and Dragonborn. I meant the AD flat out lost in Hammerfell, which they did. They commited thousands of troops to taking it, and were forced to withdraw without gaining anything. And all that you just said only happened because the Empire surrendered. If they hadn't, then they would be fine.

 

If elves reproduced at the same speed as men, but lived ten times longer, then they would soon rule the world just because there would be millions of elves and only thousands of men.

 

What was the German army doing in western Europe after giving up on Britain and switching their efforts to the Soviet Union? What was Napoleon doing in western Europe a couple hundred years earlier under very similar conditions?

 

Changing priorities is not the same as giving up completely. Hammerfell was still part of the Empire until after the Concordat. There is no significant Talos worship in Hammerfell and no known Tower within the region, so the main purpose of attacking it in the first place was simply it was a strategic asset of the Empire and the ports were strategic assets that could be used against Cyrodiil and Skyrim. The WGC treaty gave the already captured portions of Hammerfell to the AD, and they had just signed a treaty, so they weren't about to reinforce or advance and break the treaty they had just signed, and as soon as Hammerfell declared independence, there was no further need to commit resources there.

 

What they gained was the crippling of the Empire. It is difficult to consider that a loss.

 

If Elves reproduced 1/10th the rate of men, then they would have long since been wiped out from wars and attrition. Heck, the Falmer in particular would be long gone, since they live under harsher conditions and have lost most of their cognitive faculties. It is a magical world. Don't try to apply real life population studies to it. It is a completely safe bet that the writers have not done so. There is an old Gene Roddenberry quote regarding Star Trek that ships in the original series moved at the speed of plot (irrespective of warp factors being scientifically defined). It is a completely safe bet that concept applies to reproduction rates in TES. Elves reproduce at the rate plot demands.

 

You are right that the Emperor might have saved some scrolls, however there is no way they were able to move the majority of them out under those battle conditions without someone noticing.