117649AR Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 From what I see, the Thalmor are extremists within the Aldmeri Dominion who wish to right ancient wrongs by punishing Man in the present for the sins of their great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great-grandfather's great grandfathers. Hardly noble, and any "we're avenging our people" pathos is necessarily lost on anyone that didn't do much except to sin by being born Man.You're somewhat correct. The ancient wrong was the creation of Nirn by Lorkhan, which did some form of damage to the non-Aedric/non-Daedric et'Ada that did not depart for Aetherius. These spirits were the Ehlnofey, some of whom sacrificed themselves to form the Earthbones/laws of nature, while the others subgradiented/degenerated into the first mortal creatures of Nirn. These in turn were divided into two groups: the Old Ehlnofey, who viewed creation as a prison/curse and who would become Mer, and the Wanderers, who thought well of Lorkhan's work and became Men. War broke out between them over their vastly different views, which started the cycle of conflict that would still be carried out by the Mer and Men that were their descendents over the millenia. Of course the Mer fragmented into different groups over further differences of philosophy, many of which wouldn't ascribe to the Aldmeri view of Nirn as a prison: the Dunmer, for example, view Nirn as a crucible that will make them stronger. The Thalmor still hold on to this old notion that creation was a curse and that Lorkhan is a Devil, but only their leadership actively seek to undo Mundus, which they believe will somehow revert them to their original immortal spirit forms (in itself highly questionable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Well, there's also the fact that humans have wiped out or nearly wiped out at least 3 Merish races. The Dominion, who see themselves as the inheritors of Aldmeri heritage, have some very legitimate beef with Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
117649AR Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Both Men and Mer have legitimate grievances. It is, after all, a cycle of violence that's gone on for thousands of years. Men have done no worse to Mer than Mer have done to Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't know if I'd go that far. The history of TES isn't one of the Mer giving as good as they get... It's a story of the Mer being beat back, forced out and exterminated at every turn. They lost Atmora, they lost Yokuda, The Falmer fell to Ysgramor, the Chimer and Dwemer were almost wiped out, and then the Ayleids fell to Alessia. All of TES has been about the Mer losing ground. The Thalmor and the Dominion are the first time since Red Mountain that they've held their own against the Human onslaught, and that's poised to fall apart on them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
117649AR Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Except that it hasn't been a Human onslaught, really, and it has been a give-and-take. The Falmer sacked Saarthal and massacred the Atmorans there, and so an embittered Ysgramor returned and waged war on them. They were not exterminated, they suffered military defeats and thus retreated to Dwemer strongholds: ultimately their downfall was at the hands of the Dwemer, not the proto-Nords. While there was conflict between the Nords and the Chimer/Dwemer due to expansionism in the formation of their Nordic Empire, the Mer pushed the Nords out: the downfall of the Chimer/creation of the Dunmer was the fault of the Tribunal for betraying the trust of Lord Nerevar, while the downfall of the Dwemer was of their own design in becoming Numidium. The Ayleids enslaved men and were cruel overlords, and thus the men of what would become Cyrodiil revolted against their rule under the guidance of Saint Alessia. Both Men and Mer have legitimate grievances. Neither "side" is without fault, but that's missing the point of the Third Empire, which is to transcend the old hatreds and unify Tamriel. And considering the cosmopolitanism of Imperial culture, and the extent to which Men and Mer live alongside one another without strangling the other at the first opportunity? It was largely successful until the Dominion began to inflame tensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riprock Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Well after all, one of the hallmarks of TES is that it isn't the standard fantasy fare were men and elves sing cum-bye-yah, blow smoke rings over a mug of good ale, and laugh about the good old days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Yeah, and that's something to bear in mind when looking at the Dominion and the Thalmor. Man and Mer have never been on good terms, but the Mer have been consistently losing ground, and losing RACES, for 5000 years. They have had atrocities committed on them that make the Great War and the Talos ban barely more than a playground scrap and some name calling. Of COURSE they're going to be bitter and vindictive. And they're fully justified in feeling that way, because frankly, Humans are dicks, and Tiber Septim was amongst the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riprock Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 But that goes right back to killing a Son because the Father did wrong. It rights no wrong; it just sates revenge which is a selfish rather than noble act regardless of the initial act and all it does is create a vendetta. That's why in the real world world we strive for justice instead of revenge upon the guilty, at least in name. Consider the sense of scale regarding lifespans. Men die more quickly than elves. To Man these things are ancient history, and they are a race that lives thinks and dreams in the 'now' first, the future second, and when need be, the past. Just like Man in the real world. Elves on the other hand, can be safely assumed to hold old grudges very near and dear, and to pine for those old days, becasue they are closer to them in terms of their own life-cycle. It's not just a question of cosmic Justice, it's a different way of looking at the world and how each respective race views it. To a Man, that was a thing in the ancient past. To many Mer, it's not. Just like a dog whizzing on the rug. In a day, he'll forget all about it. But the event is something *you* remember for a longer time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
117649AR Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 As per my post above, the loss of Merish races has mostly been to either themselves or other Mer. In Tamriel, the Falmer fell to the Dwemer after losing a war that they started against the Atmorans, the Chimer fell to Azura and became the Dunmer as a result of the actions of Sotha Sil, Almalexia, and Vivec, and the Dwemer fell to themselves, merging their souls to become Numidium. The Ayleids fell to the proto-Cyrodiilics, yes, but that was a result of their slavery and sadistic cruelty of the Heartland Nedes. Very little is known of the Lefthanded Elves and the context/reason/events of their conflict with the Yokudans, aside that they fell as a result of Pankratosword, which was politically unmotivated and wrought equal amounts of destruction across the continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riprock Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 It is well to remember the deceit and cruelty of the Dwemer towards the Falmer when considering the inherent nobility of Mer. Given the chance, they are cable of atrocity that doesn't just destroy a race, it warps it into something terrible. is there a a parallel with man? I don't think there is. The merithic people suffered, but it is at least partly born pf pride, the kind that comes before a fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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