I'm beginning to find it harder to hate the Thalmor...

[Lachdonin]

That's a bit of an oversimplification. First, we're no longer entirely sure what caused the Night of Tears. It's always been back-and-forth between rapiy reproducing humans or jealous Elves, but the Eye of Magnus throws a wrench into that. We know the Elves sacked Sarthal, and Ysgramor retaliated for that, but we know nothing about what led to the sacking.

 

Second, the Chimer were almost exterminated long before Red Mountain. The Nedes had them up against a wall and on the verge of destruction, which led to the creation of the Brothers of Destruction, daedric abominations that barely allowed the Chimer to squueak by.

 

The events at Red Mountain are also questionable, as depending on the source the Chimer and Dwemer may not have fought at all, and the Fall of the Dwemer may have been triggered by the re-slaying of Shor.

 

But, again, there is not a single instance in Tamriel's history of the Elves giving as good as they got. In almost every case, they can't even stand their ground. You think Rome wasn't bitter to see it's empire slowly carved up over centuries?

 

The problem is, almost everything comes from a human perspective in TES. Of course the Ayleids are the cruel slavemasters who the Cyrods rose up against. That totally justifies Pelinal, who was literally genocide with legs.

 

The Dominion and the Thalmor have every right to be royally pissed off at Man. That doesn't justify their methods, but it makes them far more sympathetic than the evil moustache twill my villains people portray them as.

 

There is also no evidence if deception on the part of the Dwemer. Both Gelebor and the treaty in Markarth indicate the surviving Falmer k.ed exactly what they signed up for, though there is soe indication that something went wrong. You also have to bear in mind the reality-rejection philosophy of the Dwemer, and interpret their terms in accordance. They seemed to want to convert the Falmer, not torture the., but the Falmer clearly viewed it differently.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Lachdonin

[117649AR]

It is well to remember the deceit and cruelty of the Dwemer towards the Falmer when considering the inherent nobility of Mer. Given the chance, they are cable of atrocity that doesn't just destroy a race, it warps it into something terrible. is there a a parallel with man? I don't think there is. The merithic people suffered, but it is at least partly born pf pride, the kind that comes before a fall.

 

Mer are no more inherently noble than men, which is to say not at all. Both Mer and Men are not inherently good or inherently evil: they were simply formed as a result of a clash of philosophies among the early ancestor spirits that were the Ehlnofey. At any rate, I've more or less said in brief what there is to say on the subject: that both Men and Mer have committed atrocities against one another, and that the Thalmor not only undo the tolerance and cosmopolitan attitudes that were brought about by centuries of egalitarian Imperial Law, they also seek to exterminate Men and strip all Mer of their mortal lives in pursuit of something that both may or may not be attainable in the first place, and that may or may not even be desirable. However, to claim that Tamrielic history has been one of Humans oppressing and exterminating Elves is simply untrue. If anything, Mer have suffered more at the hands of other Mer than they have at the hands of Men.

[Riprock]

I look at it from the 'here and now' standpoint: can't do anything about the past but we can take action now to preserve the future.

 

What good does it do for either Mer or Man for Man to say "yes, we did wrong"? Tamrelic history has shown that elves can happily enslave even their own kind. And man would never willingly create for themselves a future of slavery. Those two conditions guarantee strife so long as the grudges and old hatreds continue.

 

Re: mustache twirling...I can't say that I have put forth that description. That's a High Fantasy concept TES thankfully steers clear of on a racial scale, which makes it all the more delicious when we see it on a case-by-case, individual basis. I wish there were more basic cads and villains here and there. Skyrim seems to have as an overall theme where good and bad is anything but cut and dried which is good, but the constant "it depends" leads to perpetual tension with no release.

[Riprock]

 

It is well to remember the deceit and cruelty of the Dwemer towards the Falmer when considering the inherent nobility of Mer. Given the chance, they are cable of atrocity that doesn't just destroy a race, it warps it into something terrible. is there a a parallel with man? I don't think there is. The merithic people suffered, but it is at least partly born pf pride, the kind that comes before a fall.

 

Mer are no more inherently noble than men, which is to say not at all. Both Mer and Men are not inherently good or inherently evil: they were simply formed as a result of a clash of philosophies among the early ancestor spirits that were the Ehlnofey. At any rate, I've more or less said in brief what there is to say on the subject: that both Men and Mer have committed atrocities against one another, and that the Thalmor not only undo the tolerance and cosmopolitan attitudes that were brought about by centuries of egalitarian Imperial Law, they also seek to exterminate Men and strip all Mer of their mortal lives in pursuit of something that both may or may not be attainable in the first place, and that may or may not even be desirable. However, to claim that Tamrielic history has been one of Humans oppressing and exterminating Elves is simply untrue. If anything, Mer have suffered more at the hands of other Mer than they have at the hands of Men.

 

 

I never suggested that Man was the noble Yin to the Mer's ignoble Yan. I merely pointed out the lack of nobility in the Mer's actions, in context of the whole "righting ancient wrongs" part of the discussion.

[MidbossVyers]

Yang, not Yan. I get bothered when people misspell Chinese phonetics.

[Lachdonin]

What good does it do for either Mer or Man for Man to say "yes, we did wrong"? Tamrelic history has shown that elves can happily enslave even their own kind. And man would never willingly create for themselves a future of slavery. Those two conditions guarantee strife so long as the grudges and old hatreds continue.

I think you may be misinterpreting what I am saying. The Thalmor are wrong, both in deed and in concept, and need to be stopped. However, the idea that they are cruel, racist and arrogant just because their dicks is the problem. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, Mer have ever done to Man compared to what Man has done to Mer. Genocide, slavery, marginalization and the freaking Siege of Alinor (Tiber Septim, again, unleashed a crime against reality on the High Elves) have heralded the constant press of man since the beginning of the Merithic.

 

We're also not talking about what Mer has done to Mer (or what Man has done to Man...which gets to be rather comedic when examining the Stormcloak grievances with the Empire). This is between Man and Mer, and on that scale the Mer have very much been the punching bag.

 

But no, the minute they kick back, everybody loses their mind.

 

As for the moustache twirling villain thing... I jeht didn't want to drag up the Nazi thing again...

[117649AR]

That's a bit of an oversimplification. First, we're no longer entirely sure what caused the Night of Tears. It's always been back-and-forth between rapiy reproducing humans or jealous Elves, but the Eye of Magnus throws a wrench into that. We know the Elves sacked Sarthal, and Ysgramor retaliated for that, but we know nothing about what led to the sacking.

 

Second, the Chimer were almost exterminated long before Red Mountain. The Nedes had them up against a wall and on the verge of destruction, which led to the creation of the Brothers of Destruction, daedric abominations that barely allowed the Chimer to squueak by.

 

The events at Red Mountain are also questionable, as depending on the source the Chimer and Dwemer may not have fought at all, and the Fall of the Dwemer may have been triggered by the re-slaying of Shor.

 

But, again, there is not a single instance in Tamriel's history of the Elves giving as good as they got. In almost every case, they can't even stand their ground. You think Rome wasn't bitter to see it's empire slowly carved up over centuries?

 

The problem is, almost everything comes from a human perspective in TES. Of course the Ayleids are the cruel slavemasters who the Cyrods rose up against. That totally justifies Pelinal, who was literally genocide with legs.

 

The Dominion and the Thalmor have every right to be royally pissed off at Man. That doesn't justify their methods, but it makes them far more sympathetic than the evil moustache twill my villains people portray them as.

 

On the Falmer:

 

No account of the Sack of Saarthal seems to suggest that the Nords started hostilities. If the account regarding quick breeding is true, the Falmer are still at fault: just because refugees that came to your land seeking to avoid Civil War at home seem to be reproducing very quickly does not give you license to sack their only settlement and kill every man, woman, and child living there. If the account regarding the Eye of Magnus is true (which, it should be noted, is from a text written by a Dunmer, not a Man), then the Falmer are still at fault, as they slaughtered the inhabitants of Saarthal either out of jealousy or out of fear. At any rate, the texts available to us suggest the Falmer started the war, and thus the proto-Nords cannot be blamed for winning it: the Falmer sought refuge with the Dwemer, and the Dwemer betrayed them. But as Gelebor notes, the fall of the Falmer is also partially their own, as fungi alone cannot account for what they became.

 

On the Chimer:

 

Yes, the Chimer were conquered by the Nords in their expansionist conquests of the northern lands. However, there is nothing to suggest that the Chimer were at all close to extinction as a result of these conquests, only that they were oppressed. Yet, the Nords did not only wage war against Mer, they also conquered High Rock in a similar fashion: it was imperialist expansionism, not racially motivated. The creation of the Brothers of Strife even in the text where they are introduced is not attributed to the Nords/Nedes/Proto-Nords but to Daedra, and it is also said they killed both Men and Mer alike. The actual fall of the Chimer cannot be attributed to Men: it was a result of those that would become the Tribunal.

 

On the Dwemer:

 

Their fall was of their own design, even if it was premature. They, or their Tonal Architects at least, sought to have the Dwemer as a whole achieve Numidium: regardless of what the actual stimulus was or whether it was too early, that is what happened. And at least by Landfall, the Numidium seems to have achieved its intended functionality.

 

On the Ayleids:

 

The Ayleids made slaves of the Heartland Nedes. That is fact, and in itself is oppression. Whether their sadistic cruelty is a result of historical bias or was truth does not invalidate this. The Proto-Cyrodiilics were justified in their uprising: they were not justified in their slaughter of the Ayleids, but this was largely perpetrated by Pelinal in his madness, who was uncontrollable.

 

You seem to be claiming that Mer were oppressed and/or exterminated by Men by saying that accounts are inherently human-biased. Which is true, but that does not mean that they support your claims either, it simply means that the truth of it cannot be fully known and is likely more ambiguous. There is nothing, however, to suggest that Tamrielic, or Nirnic, history is one where Man has oppressed Mer.

[Lachdonin]

On the Chimer:

 

Yes, the Chimer were conquered by the Nords in their expansionist conquests of the northern lands. However, there is nothing to suggest that the Chimer were at all close to extinction as a result of these conquests, only that they were oppressed.

I'm talking earlier than that. Early First Era, before the Nord expansion. The Chimer came under siege by the Nede's, who overran Deshan and the Stonefalls regions, pushing the Chimer to near extinction, and causing them to create the Brothers of Strife (not destruction) to save themselves. It seems the Nords expanded into the power vacuum left when the Chimer routed the Nede's, and that this conflict may have been the end of High Velothi Culture, leaving the Chimer divided and tribal. What little we know about it indicates Nedic agression and expansion, which may explain the Ayleid slaves.

 

This seems to be a general vibe with Man. We KNOW Mer were here first, and then Man settles, and conflict errupts. Who fired the first shot is never entirely clear, but we do know that Man is always Tue encroaching party, and than the Mer always get the shifty end of the stick.

[117649AR]

 

On the Chimer:

 

Yes, the Chimer were conquered by the Nords in their expansionist conquests of the northern lands. However, there is nothing to suggest that the Chimer were at all close to extinction as a result of these conquests, only that they were oppressed.

I'm talking earlier than that. Early First Era, before the Nord expansion. The Chimer came under siege by the Nede's, who overran Deshan and the Stonefalls regions, pushing the Chimer to near extinction, and causing them to create the Brothers of Strife (not destruction) to save themselves. It seems the Nords expanded into the power vacuum left when the Chimer routed the Nede's, and that this conflict may have been the end of High Velothi Culture, leaving the Chimer divided and tribal. What little we know about it indicates Nedic agression and expansion, which may explain the Ayleid slaves.

 

This seems to be a general vibe with Man. We KNOW Mer were here first, and then Man settles, and conflict errupts. Who fired the first shot is never entirely clear, but we do know that Man is always Tue encroaching party, and than the Mer always get the shifty end of the stick.

 

 

The only source on that seems to be the Brothers of Strife text, which again doesn't suggest that the Chimer were near extinction: only that they were losing to the Nedic invaders, and were on the defensive. On the actual Brothers of Strife, no one is to blame for their destruction but those who invoked them. If a war is fought and the losing side accidentally sets off a nuclear device, whose fault is it for the lives lost?

 

The Nedes settled Tamriel in order to escape the strife of Atmora, and in most places attempted to coexist with the existing Merish kingdoms. The Ayleids enslaved them, and so they retaliated, albeit too harshly. The Falmer attacked them, and so they retaliated, again too harshly. The Direnni did not do either of these things, but they did marginalize them and take wives from them as they pleased, yet the Nedes of High Rock did not retaliate, they interbred. Again, give and take.

 

Tamrielic history is not one of Man wronging Mer or Mer wronging Man to any decidedly one-sided extent. Both have wronged the other, time and again, fueling a cycle of hatred. And those Merish races that did fall were not all exterminated by Men: as I've stated, the only of those to fall at the hands of Mankind were the Ayleids, and even that was in retaliation.

[Lachdonin]

The only source on that seems to be the Brothers of Strife text, which again doesn't suggest that the Chimer were near extinction: only that they were losing to the Nedic invaders, and were on the defensive. On the actual Brothers of Strife, no one is to blame for their destruction but those who invoked them. If a war is fought and the losing side accidentally sets off a nuclear device, whose fault is it for the lives lost?

 

In the Stonefals quest line, you go back in time to witness the creation of the Brothers of Strife (they are in fact two Chimer, bound in the remains of the fallen and empowered by Daedric spirits). You are very expressly told that this is the last stand, and that if the ritual fails, the Chimer die here. So yea, their extinction was at hand, and you witness it yourself, not through history books or bias.

 

And agin, yes, we know where the Nedes came from, we know they settled Tamriel and in some cases may have coexisted with the Mer. At the same time, we know that names like Hans the Fox and Pelinal (both human hero names, though they could be translations) forged empires and cut swaths across Tamriel during the late Merithic, centuries before the Ayleids were known to have made slaves of the Nedes. We simply do not know who was the aggressor more often than not, all we know is the Elves almost always lost.