I'm beginning to find it harder to hate the Thalmor...

[117649AR]

Was it? I admit I haven't played ESO as of yet, so I didn't know that. At any rate, I do not mean to say that the Elves have not lost frequently throughout Tamrielic history: my point is that Man has not always been the aggressor, as Mer have very frequently fallen to themselves or to other races of Mer, just as Men have frequently slaughtered other Men. Either way, it is not entirely fair to make such a sweeping judgment when we do not, and cannot, know the entire truth to the various histories.

[Lachdonin]

I think we both got to arguing against each others straw-men, and passed over the points we were trying to make entirely. I only meant that Tamriel's history is a long line of Elves-Lose, regardless of who started the fight. Constant loss can make one bitter and vindictive, and with that in mind the Altmer mindset, and the Dominions as a whole, is understandable. They've been beaten around like a cheap drum for thojsands of years, and now they're kicking back.

 

For anyone whose been bullied, its a sympathetic thing. And it's a little more sympathetic than Dagoth Ur's 'I am the Godhead' trip or Mankar's 'The Aedra are imposters' arguement. It's still BAD, but it's sympathetic.

[117649AR]

In which case, I agree. Although it's worth noting that at least in the end, Elves do win. It's a twist of irony that the Thalmor cannot know it.

[monganfinn]

While I have to agree that the elves have their reasons born out of embitterment from over the ages, as does mankind, the Septim empire would have been a possible end to said hostilities.

That the human heroes are all homicidial lunatics is not really something to contest.

Furthermore never! did men try to wipe out all of the elven nations, as do the Thalmor today.

However the it is fact that the advance of mankind led to the formation of the Dominion.

 

However apart from the cycle of hatred, which probably gave birth to the current situation, mer look at men as savages as their culture is generally more advanced. This also leads to the Thalmor believe that they know more about the universe than men, hybris as they know less than we but tot he TES humans it would be true.

We can rightfully claim that the Thalmor are idiots but in verse there is little indication that they should know better.

That which mankind in TES really can hold against the Thalmor is their hybris as they justify their acts with mere believes.

But if you see it from a Thalmor perspective and if you are convinced your believes are right, their crimes become more understandable as it would seem the Thalmor are simply doing what is necessary for the betterment of all.

If mankind truly wants to be better then them and not make the same mistakes they would have to chose to not retaliate and well talk with them, establish a selling point for their own different world views.

 

Kudos to Bethesda for the creation of a fantasy world where there are little real evil people, even the Thalmor are more "misguided" than evil. Hell, even the daedra are ambigious sometimes.

 

As far as I remember the first conflict was between the wanderers and the old Ehlnofey as the wanderers were chased out from Aldmeris for some petty reason, but that would have to be before the Convention.

Atmora the old Ehlnofey were chased out by the wanderers led by Shor, probably also before the Convention.

 

But the history of those conflicts clearly show that none of the major races of Nirn are inherently evil, they all have their faults and that is a point of view in which we can be more sympathetic with the Aldmer for their deed don´t necessarily stem from being evil, racist or whatever else but faulty information and their own experience as well as true differences between the species. And those are possible to point out in TES as the races have clear characteristics. In lotr if I say Orks are evil, I am very right, they probably aren´t completely and have a bit of their own culture and are only as evil as they are becaus of Sauron but no one would contest an elf from Middle Earth saying as such.

If I say in TES that Aldmer are arrogant, a trait even augmented by their longer lifespans, I would mostly be right as well, nonetheless there is no one really evil on Nirn they all have their reasons, as bigoted as they are. They all are, for the lack of a better word, "human".

[Lachdonin]

.

As far as I remember the first conflict was between the wanderers and the old Ehlnofey as the wanderers were chased out from Aldmeris for some petty reason, but that would have to be before the Convention.

Atmora the old Ehlnofey were chased out by the wanderers led by Shor, probably also before the Convention.

The Ehlnofex Wars definately happened before Convention, which makes them kinda... Weird. Things happen before their cause, and resolutions lead to effects... Time doesn't work properly in the Dawn.

 

You do learn a bit about the Wanderers in ESO, mind you, and why the Ehlnofey-Aldmer were so fearful of them. The Wanderers were just that. Wanderers. They HAD to wander, and their mere presence destroyed all around them to prevent them from settling down. Some managed to finally find peace in Valenwood, bound to the migrations of the Graht-oaks. Always moving, but with home and shelter always with them, a sort of changing stasis...

 

But if all wanderers were like this, with their simple presence leading to destruction, it may explain why the Elves were so concerned about their descendants.

[monganfinn]

But if all wanderers were like this, with their simple presence leading to destruction, it may explain why the Elves were so concerned about their descendants.

True, I wasn´t aware that they really brought change/destruction whereever they went, even in RL such an argument would likely hold.

After all overcoming such a deeply ingrained existential fear and anger can only be overcome by forgetting it, which at cannot be said for the mer.

And even now they still may fear, rightfully if we look at history, that this "ability" of the wanderers exists withing their descendants, after all they always change the status quo.

On the other hand, the reported ability of the wanderers, is told to us via the texts of the mer so a form of bias is quite likely, it could very well be that there wasn´t any real power behind the change they brought but that ... well new people bring new things with them, so change is inevitable if they appear, not to speak of the different life expectations and livestyle they probably already had.

Furthermore their view point was imo drastically different, the old Ehlnofex probably looked with even more fervor into the past as the mer do today and the wanderers probably wanted to build a future for themselves and strived forward, thus conflict was inevitable and the elven chronists might have interpreted that as a "fate".

 

Unless I am totally wrong about your sources, I admit to not know much about ESO.

 

The Thalmor and even less the other mer are evil for evils sake, nevertheless the difference between them and the mankind is akin to a murderer and a bully, if we take the species as individuals.

 

I do have a question concerning the Snow-Throat Tower, is it plausible that the "cave of Shor" where he met himself is actually inside Satakal/Alduin as he ate the world in a past calpa? The inside of a dragon, especially Alduin could be linked with time as they are fragments? of Akatosh.

Furthermore the naming of "... Throat" is also an indication.

If so could the destruction of Snow Throat be the scenario that neither Alduin nor another Dragon doesn´t reside there?

[117649AR]

I would doubt it, as every Tower save Ada-Mantia and Red Mountain was made by Mer. To my knowledge the Falmer have no connection to Dragons, and they are the most likely builders of Snow Throat.

[Lachdonin]

We... Don't really know. There are competing theories on what - Shor, Son of Shor - depicts. Some think it's a Kalpic end, with hero-figures mantling the original Et'ada and shuffling places before the beginning of thenext world... Others, like myself, think it's just a depiction of the temporal weirdness of the Dawn, in which Cause and Effect are often independent and contradictory things. Neither really gives much insight into exactly what the Cave is... Could be the Vault if Mars for all we know, and Shor may just he the Void Dragon playing his star-god mind games...

 

Though, I think the name Snow Throat is derived more in regards to the sacred nature of the mountain to the Nordic Tongues. We aren't entirely sure what the Falmer called it, but it was almost certainly not Snow-Throat, just as the Dwemer didn't call their tower Walk-Brass, it was (A)Numidium.

[monganfinn]

as every Tower save Ada-Mantia and Red Mountain was made by Mer.

Didn´t know that. Good to know.

We... Don't really know.

Yeah, I know TES ancient history is ... incomplete anyway.

And rather than the naming I based this theory more on the connection of time/dragon - though the Dawn era would probably suffice, but then the cave wouldn´t be really something pecial, and that the Throat of the World has been Alduin´s seat of power for the longest time.

Furthermore it kind of sounds right to me that the dragons as "sons" of Akatosh would kind of be connected with one of the locks on Nirn.

 

Thanks for your input.

[Lachdonin]

I am generally of the mind (and I think people like Lady N., IceFireWarden, Doom Driven Poster and Mr. flippers would increasingly agree) that with the exception of Adamantia and Red, the significance of the remaining Towers as foundations, anchors or locks has been grossly over-emphasized by scholars (IE us).

 

Even in the text in which they were really introduced, the Towers were never really in the same class as the first two. Adamantia and Red serve very specific, very fundimental roles in creation, bit the other towers were built by mortals to MIMIC them.

 

It's rather important to note that Mortals cannot create, at Least not in the same way as the Et'ada could. Their towers couldn't really anchor, or stabilize anything, because they lacked the basic capacity to do so. Rather, the Towers were massive Magicka-sinks used to collect and channel Creatia, not to create, bit to SHAPE. This idea is heavily reinforced in ESO, which speculates that while they have other uses, the 'basic' function of all the Towers is landscaping.

 

We also know they have impact in the maintinance of certain inter-planar barriers, as explored in Lord of Souls (which also deals with some of their other uses) and that there is some kind of network centered on White-Gold, but there's not really anything to suggest try stabilize reality. There have been many anti-Daedra barriers and pacts over the ages.

 

Which begs the question. If they aren't anchors for reality, why would the Thalmor care? My theory... Raw power. The Thalmor know about the Impossipoint, and that Talos forms soemtbig. Of a lock preventing access. We know their plan to get rid of Talos (we also know it won't work, but that's beside the point) but we don't have any idea how they plan to remove the Impossipoint and unbind the Dragon...

 

So consider this... There is a finite amount of creatia which can reach Nirn. With the Towers acting as funnels and collecting this, it distributes the power around the world. Less towers would equal more draw on individual towers. And, just like you can even melt a Lightning Rod if you throw enough power at it (exceedingly difficult to do, by the way... Impossible to replicate in lab) if the Thalmor can draw all that Creatia through Adamantia, they may hope to destroy it that way.